Tabula Raider: Should the learning curve reset? - Page 5

Medusa · 02/08/08, 6:00 AM

I think that the most important things was already postet by Sirloin on the 1st page. I realy remember my leveling time, the 1st time in MC without even Damagemeter or Decursive. The Information on the web was very limited at that point.

Afer BC a few newbies starts to Raid in my guild, after a few raids i was very impressed how well some people do without raiding pre BC or even without knowing the game before.

I am sure that the dificulty curve will raise again in the next expansion. It will be intresting if the Raidinstances will become like Black Temple (no big Nerf Need) or like Gruul/Maggie/Nightbane with was Contentblocker untill some bigger adjustments.

songster · 02/08/08, 6:41 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

What I'm more hoping is that Blizzard will not continue this trend of adding two dungeons to T5 and T6 raiding levels. I'd much rather have a progressive stream that maybe increases in 0.5 tier steps each dungeon.

I'm hoping the exact opposite. Cockblocks break guilds. If you have a single linear progression, there will be block after block. Moreover, having a single progression means that when you're stuck on boss X you have to keep throwing yourself at it night after night even if your raid signups happen to be unsuitable. You're on Kael and your Capernian tank has an attack of RL? Sod you, you have to go in without him and wipe for hours.

The beauty of having two raid instances is that you can make progress in instance B even if you're blocked in instance A. It lets the slower ones gradually gear past the gear checks, and prevents the drama of being forced to throw yourself at boss X with unworkable raid compositions. Where does TBC progression currently break guilds? It breaks them at precisely the point where the parallelism fails - at Kael. When you get to Kael, you have no alternative options.

What I want to see in WoTLK is proper parallel progression. You have instances (in order) A, B, C, D. Completing A gives you access to C. Completing B gives you access to D. That way you always have options. You start with A. As you get towards the end of A, you add in the start of B. When you complete A, you're able to start C. That leaves you working on the end of B and the start of C - and so on and so forth.

The existence of parallel instances also helps overcome the problem of loot whores who only sign for farm content. With a linear progression, you know that the farm content is generally at the start of the week, and the progression happens at the end of the week. If you have parallel instances, you can mix it up. Train Hyjal all weekend and then knock off the first three farm bosses in BT on the last day before the reset. With a strict linear path, the only way you can shift any farm content to the end of the week is by going back to farm previous-tier content that people are bored of and is unlikely to give you many real upgrades.

Edit to add: After the many changes and nerfs, I'd now say that the current raiding scene, from a learning curve perspective, is close to perfect apart from the hideous Vashj/Kael block as detailed above. The first few bosses in SSC are achievable even by comparatively "casual" (read: low time commitment, very variable signups, under 50% attendance) raid groups. Mechanically, they are not too complex. That level of encounter complexity is fine for the starting raid in WoTLK. To make it simpler than SSC would be a waste.

What needs to change in WoTLK is not the learning curve but the gearing curve. The entry level raid should be tuned for a mixture of quest blues and dungeon set gear, so that you can hit 70, gear up in 5-man content and move straight to 25-man raiding. 10-man and 25-man need to be parallel paths, not one as a prerequisite for the other.

Grogi · 02/08/08, 7:01 AM

I think time trials are right way to go. Really talented raiders have so huge skill, organizational and motivation advantage compared to majority of the raiders, that Blizzard has to find cost effective way to reach both groups (and everything in-between). Time trials (hopefully multiple tiers) will do just that. More raiders in general will reach to final boss, but at the same time world first kill guilds have something to compete on.

Shandara · 02/08/08, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by songster

I
Edit to add: After the many changes and nerfs, I'd now say that the current raiding scene, from a learning curve perspective, is close to perfect apart from the hideous Vashj/Kael block as detailed above. The first few bosses in SSC are achievable even by comparatively "casual" (read: low time commitment, very variable signups, under 50% attendance) raid groups. Mechanically, they are not too complex. That level of encounter complexity is fine for the starting raid in WoTLK. To make it simpler than SSC would be a waste.

Well, Vashj and Kael have been retuned enough so that, really, the only point of failure would be you raiders. The strategies for both are well known and clear enough to understand that it really depends on the people you are raiding with whether they are cockblocks.

Their complexity isn't too great either, especially Kael is a very 'easy' fight to understand, with a not-too-high level of competence needed. It's just that it needs the whole raid to have this level of competence and most guilds (including mine) are too varied in this respect. Things like attendance/commitment/signups would not have such a big impact if they didn't come with a varied 'skill' level either. And most guilds do not have the slack in their roster to deal with this, but instead have to cope with it.

I don't see how it's possible to tune a fight for this kind of raid without building in a large number of idiot-proof measures (like how in MC you could lose 10-15 people and still finish the fight, since the nature of the boss didn't require any particular level of dps).

songster · 02/08/08, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Well, Vashj and Kael have been retuned enough so that, really, the only point of failure would be you raiders. The strategies for both are well known and clear enough to understand that it really depends on the people you are raiding with whether they are cockblocks.

Their complexity isn't too great either, especially Kael is a very 'easy' fight to understand, with a not-too-high level of competence needed. It's just that it needs the whole raid to have this level of competence and most guilds (including mine) are too varied in this respect.

Actually, no. It does if you beat him with T5 gear only, of course. However, you can make it a lot easier by outgearing it to the point where all the weapons go down well before the advisors revive, and then all the advisors go down well before Kael himself comes into play. For a more casual group (such as mine) with a wide spectrum of competence, that's just not possible in T5 gear, which is why Kael is such a block. They have to do him the hard way. 1 or 2 weapons still up when the adds revive, and at least one of the adds still up when Kael joins in. In fact, we generally enter phase 4 with Capernian and the axe still up - that's what happens to work for us.

Now, imagine if you could get into Hyjal (but not BT) just by killing Vashj. You'd have access to drops from at least the first 3 and possibly the first 4 Hyjal bosses. I'm sure nobody would claim they're harder than Kael! Getting some T6 quality loot from these bosses could then be used to tip the balance on the Kael fight, for those that can't get past him on pure execution and ability. This is what I mean by saying a "double ladder" of progression helps break down the barriers for the low end guilds without trivialising things for the high end guilds. And that surely is the goal here?

Blackthought · 02/08/08, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by firebird365

Perhaps I'm being selfish or unreasonable, but I think that the idea of "lite" instances diminishes the sense of accomplishment that comes with beating them. I don't want to step into an easy version of a difficult instance and take down Illidan by clicking the anti-Heroic button on my party tab; if I'm facing a significant boss, the hurdles to kill that boss should be equally significant...

To further put my opinion in perspective, I don't have time to raid and I haven't been in Hyjal or Black Temple. Regardless, I would consider my experience diminished if I could enter (and beat) those instances through some handicapping system.

I cannot believe that your gaming experience would be diminished by experiencing content that is not currently available to you. To claim that you would be dissapointed by seeing more of this game is mind boggling. Why is that? Do you feel as though you are unworthy to see Illidan because you havent dedicated enough of your life to the cause?

XI- · 02/08/08, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by songster

Actually, no. It does if you beat him with T5 gear only, of course. However, you can make it a lot easier by outgearing it to the point where all the weapons go down well before the advisors revive, and then all the advisors go down well before Kael himself comes into play. For a more casual group (such as mine) with a wide spectrum of competence, that's just not possible in T5 gear, which is why Kael is such a block. They have to do him the hard way. 1 or 2 weapons still up when the adds revive, and at least one of the adds still up when Kael joins in. In fact, we generally enter phase 4 with Capernian and the axe still up - that's what happens to work for us.

Now, imagine if you could get into Hyjal (but not BT) just by killing Vashj. You'd have access to drops from at least the first 3 and possibly the first 4 Hyjal bosses. I'm sure nobody would claim they're harder than Kael! Getting some T6 quality loot from these bosses could then be used to tip the balance on the Kael fight, for those that can't get past him on pure execution and ability. This is what I mean by saying a "double ladder" of progression helps break down the barriers for the low end guilds without trivialising things for the high end guilds. And that surely is the goal here?

The reason the bosses are easy is because Kael is hard. The same reason Ebonroc and Flamegor were easy, because Broodlord and Firemaw were hard. If you can't kill Kael with all the nerfs, upgrades to gear, T5+ caliber badge loot, etc, you should probably go back to Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.

Dralmoo · 02/08/08, 10:16 AM

Bug trio style loot is a terrible idea, unless they drop basically the same loot but different ilevels, or maybe something that > 50% of the raid would want. It really sucks if the item you want is only off of the "hard" way - good luck getting your guild to spend time & money wiping on it. Obviously some guilds will do it for the challenge, but even when it's on farm I feel like most would rather just get the instance done faster. Nobody was ever that excited to say "we killed Kri last".

Valerian · 02/08/08, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Shandara

Well, Vashj and Kael have been retuned enough so that, really, the only point of failure would be you raiders. The strategies for both are well known and clear enough to understand that it really depends on the people you are raiding with whether they are cockblocks.

Their complexity isn't too great either, especially Kael is a very 'easy' fight to understand, with a not-too-high level of competence needed. It's just that it needs the whole raid to have this level of competence and most guilds (including mine) are too varied in this respect. Things like attendance/commitment/signups would not have such a big impact if they didn't come with a varied 'skill' level either. And most guilds do not have the slack in their roster to deal with this, but instead have to cope with it.

I don't see how it's possible to tune a fight for this kind of raid without building in a large number of idiot-proof measures (like how in MC you could lose 10-15 people and still finish the fight, since the nature of the boss didn't require any particular level of dps).

This touches on the main issue. A lot of people are not "good" at this game. Back pre-TBC those who were not great could easily be carried by the good players, at least til Naxx/AQ40. Now it really can't be done. As you said, with smaller raids you can't tune it to assume 5 idiots because a guild with 25 good people is just going to roll over all content. I think this is directly a cause of the smaller raids. Each person is significantly more important to the raid so their personal responsibility increased. In addition, 25 man raids means it is organizationally easier and thus more people are raiding. However this then also means, assuming a relatively constant % of bad players, you'll see MORE bad players trying to raid as well.

The reason the bosses are easy is because Kael is hard. The same reason Ebonroc and Flamegor were easy, because Broodlord and Firemaw were hard. If you can't kill Kael with all the nerfs, upgrades to gear, T5+ caliber badge loot, etc, you should probably go back to Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.

It may be easy for you and your guild, but I can't imagine that is the case for everyone. Objectively saying it is easy is foolish. If the average skill level is X and that is not sufficient to "beat" an encounter, its pretty arrogant to simply say "that encounter is easy noob". It would be like a brain surgeon with 20 years experience telling you "its easy, I don't see why you killed that guy when you tried it noob".

Riallatar · 02/08/08, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Dralmoo

Bug trio style loot is a terrible idea, unless they drop basically the same loot but different ilevels, or maybe something that > 50% of the raid would want. It really sucks if the item you want is only off of the "hard" way - good luck getting your guild to spend time & money wiping on it. Obviously some guilds will do it for the challenge, but even when it's on farm I feel like most would rather just get the instance done faster. Nobody was ever that excited to say "we killed Kri last".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the loot dropped from the Bug Trio the same regardless of how they were killed, it's just that the method of the kill favored certain drops over others?

Playered · 02/08/08, 10:28 AM

Keep in mind that they fully intend to support a working model of 10man raiding in WoTLK (where BC was a test...), which is where a majority of those 'bad' players will end up instead of on the 25mans.

If they linked a 10man and a 25man around roughly the same area (consider Mag and Blood Furnace) where you get to see a chunk of the larger zone while passing through. You get to atleast visually see part of the larger raiding zone, while feeling slightly linked towards it.

Originally Posted by Riallatar

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the loot dropped from the Bug Trio the same regardless of how they were killed, it's just that the method of the kill favored certain drops over others?

There was a shared pool of items which all of them could drop, and then they each had a small individual item pool which they could uniquely drop.

Maczor · 02/08/08, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

I cannot believe that your gaming experience would be diminished by experiencing content that is not currently available to you. To claim that you would be dissapointed by seeing more of this game is mind boggling. Why is that? Do you feel as though you are unworthy to see Illidan because you havent dedicated enough of your life to the cause?

I know many people who share his view of gaming. I am of a similar mindset. I play the campaign of RTS games as their highest difficulty from the start, rather then playing in on "Easy" to quickly see the store and missions. Some people think this is stupid as it makes playing the game more frustrating, but I find it fun and the only way to play.

If I did not have time to raid or wasn't skilled enough to be in a Illidan guild (which was the case with Kel'thazad) then I wouldn't want to fight a handicapped version of Illidan just so I could "see the content".

I have time to raid and our guild will soon down Illidan. However there are many things in WoW that I do not have the time, patience, or skill to do/aquire. Part of what makes games fun for me (and I suspect others as well) is not being able to do everything and possess every single thing in the game. It makes the things I do have time for and the things I am able to do more valuable.

Moogul · 02/08/08, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Riallatar

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the loot dropped from the Bug Trio the same regardless of how they were killed, it's just that the method of the kill favored certain drops over others?

No. The bug trio had 4 loot tables, one for each bug plus a shared one. On each kill, 2 items dropped, one from the shared pool, and one from the pool of whomever you killed last.

XI- · 02/08/08, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

]It may be easy for you and your guild, but I can't imagine that is the case for everyone. Objectively saying it is easy is foolish. If the average skill level is X and that is not sufficient to "beat" an encounter, its pretty arrogant to simply say "that encounter is easy noob". It would be like a brain surgeon with 20 years experience telling you "its easy, I don't see why you killed that guy when you tried it noob".

Show me a raid that can't kill Kael and I'll show you a raid with bad gear choices, bad spec choices, not taking full advantage of the badge vendor, not having fully enchanted gear, not using blue gems, etc, etc. You see these are CHOICES. If you CHOOSE to spec shadowstep over combat as a rogue for example YOU ARE COSTING YOUR RAID DPS. Yes that's right, because you're too fucking cheap to respec for arena, you made the difference between getting 3 weapons down vs 4. Expand this to a raidwide level and you see how encounters can get much harder. You're the asshole who's too cheap to flask. When the raid wipes at 1% it's your fucking fault. Again, expand to the whole raid.

Notice that 0 of these things have to do with skill, they have to do with laziness and apathy. You flat out don't give a fuck about your fellow raiders, and if they don't care that you're wasting their time, why the fuck should Blizzard.

Hypatia · 02/08/08, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Dralmoo

Bug trio style loot is a terrible idea, unless they drop basically the same loot but different ilevels, or maybe something that > 50% of the raid would want. It really sucks if the item you want is only off of the "hard" way - good luck getting your guild to spend time & money wiping on it. Obviously some guilds will do it for the challenge, but even when it's on farm I feel like most would rather just get the instance done faster. Nobody was ever that excited to say "we killed Kri last".

That’s why I was suggesting that changes that adjust the tenor of the fight without tremendously changing the difficulty would be better. Really making sure that all "styles" for the fight are of equal difficulty is just as hard as making sure that all the loot for the fight is equally desirable—but that should be the goal, rather than having some fight styles be intentionally harder.

On the other side, if something makes the fight unambiguously harder, then the gear should be unambiguously better.

One thing this comparison implies is that in the "different but the same difficulty" scenario, you can exercise control over what kind of loot you want: Fight it in way A, and have a better chance of melee weapons dropping, fight it in way B, and have a better chance of caster weapons dropping. Contrariwise, in the "more difficult but the same thing" scenario, you have to have exactly the same *sorts* of things in both fights, so that you never need to force people to fight it the easy way because easy mode drops an item that you won't be able to replace for two instances.