Ok, just why are people whining about gear itemisation in tiered pieces ? There is no way blizzard can make one set of gear, for mages, to cover all specs. The reason is really simple:
fire/frost mages
Want lots of spell hit rating
Spell crit is 'ok'
Don't want any spirit
arcane mages
Don't want any spell hit rating
Want to avoid spell crit whenever possible
Wants spirit
For as long as there will be just one tiered set for mages the gear will never 'make sense' for all specs.
So the question is, why is there only one set of tiered Mage gear (and for that matter, tiered Warlock gear, especially since there are two PvP sets of warlock gear)?
(Long time reader, second time poster.) This may sound shocking to some, but when I raid we generally have 1 shadow priest, and the healers get that. The rest of us use pots and whatever class abilities we have. I'm assuming this is somewhat unusual after reading peoples' replies here, evidently others have somewhat more SP's that are worth bringing to raids.
On the subject of mages. I'm unsure how they could rectify spirit for mages so that it is more of a 'useful' stat for all specs. Perhaps something like the paladin spiritual attunement class ability that grants a passive effect (Such as a modifier to spell costs based upon spirit, or somesuch). I'm sure they're thinking of something, otherwise they wouldn't be stacking so much spirit onto mage gear. Then again I could just be talking out of my posterior.
Do you honestly think that (for example) Brut is going to be tuned around your raid having a Moonkin in giving 3% extra physical hit? or around the 2 Destro-locs getting an additional 3% crit/hit from an Elemental Shaman in their group?
He will be (or rather is) tuned around your raid being able to produce <x> RDPS for <y> duration and nothing more, you can synergize or brute force your raid however you want but in the end its only the (HP/Time) factor which is the defining point assuming you can understand the mechanics of the fight.
I think some synergy is assumed for tuning, and some is not. Your examples were deliberately more exotic compared to say, CoS for the locks and shadow priests, shadow priests for at least some of the raid group, windfury for the melee, etc.
Manly has put it more succinctly than my inane rambling. Either there should be more than one set of tier gear for mages, or it should be itemised to fit the most highly populated spec rather than attempting to be a compromise between the two.
Of course, that was all from my highly biased deep-fire viewpoint.
So the question is, why is there only one set of tiered Mage gear (and for that matter, tiered Warlock gear, especially since there are two PvP sets of warlock gear)?
Why is there only one set of Hunter gear when SV wants AGI and MM and BM don't mind straight AP? Why is there only one set of feral gear when Cats would prefer more AP instead of additional armor and stamina? Why do Mutilate rogues get as much hit as a combat rogue when its not quite as important?
For every spec to be happy there would have to be at least 2-4 tier sets for each class. It is doable, but I don't think it would happen from a pure logistics standpoint. Everyone would pretty much be locked into one spec for their gear (i.e. if Shadowbolt gets nerfed you would have to reaquire an entire new set for your new Fire Destro build).
Whatever else can be said about the Warlock change, it is strange that at this late point in the game they are introducing such a dramatic change to warlock gear strategies. This seems like the type of change that would be far better implemented at the start of an expansion rather than at the end.
The change is utterly baffling. It's to Blizzard's credit I suppose that this is probably the first change I really haven't understood at all. Or maybe I'm getting stupider in my old age.
For every spec to be happy there would have to be at least 2-4 tier sets for each class. It is doable, but I don't think it would happen from a pure logistics standpoint. Everyone would pretty much be locked into one spec for their gear (i.e. if Shadowbolt gets nerfed you would have to reaquire an entire new set for your new Fire Destro build).
Blizzard already designed a decent system for handling this. Just make tier a trade-in. give each class as many sets as there are playstyles. trading in has the penalty of wiping enchants of course and maybe additional reagents or gold.
Why is there only one set of Hunter gear when SV wants AGI and MM and BM don't mind straight AP? Why is there only one set of feral gear when Cats would prefer more AP instead of additional armor and stamina? Why do Mutilate rogues get as much hit as a combat rogue when its not quite as important?
The cat/bear gear problem is classic, but also silly, as no feral druid would ever take cat-only itemized set gear over tanking gear (I hope). You would be locking yourself into a mediocre dps role when the OT/dps flexibility is the key to the spec's raid viability. Now, if the the Bear set had its str stripped off in favour of expertise/hit/agi/dodge/defense, you might have an argument...
The Hunter example is completely disengenuous - due to the itemization formula, an AGI/ap split is always ideal. the ideal ratio of that split may vary by spec, but itemization is never done that exactly anyway. The Mutilate example is even more absurd as it's barely relevant and the spec isn't exactly viable anyway.
Regardless, I hope that the Spirit changes (along with maybe Mage Armor tweaking?) makes spirit on gear viable for all specs of mage, rather than locking them into spec-specific gear.
The PTR phase is a long way from done, do not panic.
The cat/bear gear problem is classic, but also silly, as no feral druid would ever take cat-only itemized set gear over tanking gear (I hope). You would be locking yourself into a mediocre dps role when the OT/dps flexibility is the key to the spec's raid viability. Now, if the the Bear set had its str stripped off in favour of expertise/hit/agi/dodge/defense, you might have an argument...
The Hunter example is completely disengenuous - due to the itemization formula, an AGI/ap split is always ideal. the ideal ratio of that split may vary by spec, but itemization is never done that exactly anyway. The Mutilate example is even more absurd as it's barely relevant and the spec isn't exactly viable anyway.
Regardless, I hope that the Spirit changes (along with maybe Mage Armor tweaking?) makes spirit on gear viable for all specs of mage, rather than locking them into spec-specific gear.
The PTR phase is a long way from done, do not panic.
I was just using them as examples, no reason to get all snippy. The point remains tier sets are almost never perfect for any spec, which is why we have these great things called non set epics. The only reason you usually see people using tier pieces is because of bonuses.
The problem with spirit on mage gear basically bowls down to Shadow Priests being "overpowered" in a very specific sense of the word: that the difference between having one and not having one makes such a qualitative difference. Not to say that they're overpowered from most other viewpoints, like damage output or PvP viability, because they're not, but pretty much everything about mana users in a raid group is determined by the shadowpriests. Group makeup, consumable use, gear, and spec behave totally differently. The result of which is that a stat that is good, or even necessary, in some situations is wasted in others. Not even hit rating does this--if I gear for 13% hit and lose my elemental shaman it's just a dps loss on the order of 50 damage, not a shift to inviability if I didn't bring a second set of consumables. It's a problem that blizzard seems to have realized, and also seems to have realized that they've boxed themselves into. VT defines shadowpriests, and they can't really tone it down to sane levels without razing most common raid knowledge out there. They're working towards it, by introducing other ways of obtaining the mana you need. But they're not there yet.
Personally, I think the shadow-priest-less model of regen is more interesting. There's more skill and tactical decision-making when you have to balance regen against damage output. Warlocks and Hunters are blessed with a more interactive paradigm for this, since we can make the damage-longevity tradeoff on the fly, while mages basically have to do so at the beginning of the fight when they choose their armor type. But having to sacrifice a small amount of damage for a good amount of longevity is not a mage-specific issue, nor is it really a bad thing for the class in general. I'm going to echo some of the previous sentiment and just state: mages are not special in having to make that tradeoff, and I am continually mystified by the accuracy of the stereotype that they are unwilling to do so.
another spirit fix would be to up improved divine spirit to 30% or so
Is damage really the issue? Regardless of that fact that iDS is already more powerful per tallent point than other tallents that convert stats into damage/healing. The spirit buffs were never intended to boost DPS, just to make it easier to sustain DPS.
Is damage really the issue? Regardless of that fact that iDS is already more powerful per tallent point than other tallents that convert stats into damage/healing. The spirit buffs were never intended to boost DPS, just to make it easier to sustain DPS.
that's coming from the point of view that spirit, even with its mana regen, represents wasted item points that would be better spent on more dmg, haste, etc.
Now that lifetap balance is measured by its usage in PvP, I kindly encourage developers to continue in the same path and remove lifetap from GCD. Why, this would make perfect sense for PvE, regardless of whatever crap scaling they deem fit and as for PvP, chain lifetapping in 2 seconds would only get you closer to death.
Jokes aside, this change was kind of uncalled for, still, at least we will be able to lifetap faster in 2.4, yay for shorter GCD.
Last edited by Quixef : 02/23/08 at 6:46 PM.
Reason: Addition
An implication that nobody has mentioned is resist sets/warlock tanking. Both the soulguard set & infernoweave set are loaded with stam and have ZERO int on them. Warlocks in resist gear will have roughly twice as much hp as mana & will convert health to mana at a 2:1 ratio with the new lifetap.
An implication that nobody has mentioned is resist sets/warlock tanking. Both the soulguard set & infernoweave set are loaded with stam and have ZERO int on them. Warlocks in resist gear will have roughly twice as much hp as mana & will convert health to mana at a 2:1 ratio with the new lifetap.
From a purely healer point of view, I don't see the life-tap drain as heal intensive. I am still going to drop a renew on a warlock that is going to tick for 1200-1400 hp every 3 seconds. Except now the Warlock might make my spell more "efficient" rather than having a couple seconds of the spell be useless.
And on any fight where warlocks are tanks, I don't think this will be an issue. You have a lot of downtime for Leothras. There's Capernian, but Capernian doesn't really do a lot of damage. So what, healer changes from Greater Heal 1 to Greater Heal 3 or something. And I don't ever remember a warlock dying to spike damage from Twin Emperors.
On a five minute fight (and i don't know that a mage even uses evocate on one, but if they do it's only 8 seconds), a warlock loses *34.5* seconds to lifetap. That's well over half a minute where they're sitting there doing zero dps, doing absolutely nothing but actively regaining mana.
On a five minute fight, without a shadow priest, a Mage will run out of mana around four minutes or so. That's with Evocation, Mage Armor, Mana Spring, Mana Tide, Gems, Potions, and a JoW up.
The flip side is that we don't run out of mana with a shadow priest. It's a dumb situation that results in us swapping groups around mid-fight usually.
[snip]
Come to BC, and the item value for Stamina was changed. On BC items, one health is 1/20 of an item point, while mana remains 1/15! Suddenly, Life Tap is giving you 1/15 of an item point for every 1/20 you spend. This completely reverses the original relationship and design intention of the ability.
[snip]
My ratio of health to mana is relatively unchanged from before BC to after BC. Warlocks still stacked stamina then and had little int, I didn't get any tier 3 though.
If you wanted to nerf pve warlock damage then you would nerf either shadow&flame or demonic sacrafice. There is no need to nerf lifetap to reign in their damage when you could just nerf the damage itself.
For pvp just decrease the coefficient from 80% to 60% and along with the demonic knowledge tune down we will have less mana. Then if that is still considered overpowered then we can be tuned down some more.
Edit:Affliction locks really hate our tier gear due to its excessive crit when they cast few shadowbolts and don't even have ruin.
As to all the posts here and on the wow forums about how awesome it is to force warlocks to stack int....: you *can't* stack int. It's not like stamina where you can pvp or pick up the odd item on raids. There isn't gear to "stack" int. And even if you could (via gems), the return per point is terrible.
There is no return per point at all. Base mana abilities don't get affected by int on gear. As a druid im quiet happy about it because Rebirth for example costs 68% of base mana. Not exactly 7k mana cost for me raidbuffed.
As for the warlocks gain by a spriest. If you are so terribly mana inefficient with the horrible sbolt dpm, how would a spriest have a bigger effect on you than on a mage? The mana gain stays the same on you or on the mage.
The dps of a warlock after he is through his mana pool once stays stable (5 bolts 1 tap or something similar), a mages dps goes down to wanding once he is through his mana pool and gem/pot is on cd. It might just all be perception and im sure that warlocks also gain dps by having a spriest. The real question a raid leader is asking himself is which group gains the most from the spriest.
On top of that theres the issue of overaggro. While our destro locks are usually already threat capped, our mages sometimes have some room for bursts. While that is not an issue for all fights, spreading the dps is also a valid dps increase for aggro capped fights, even if the trade ratio would be 2:1
The encounters are simply more complicated than tank'n'spank spreadsheets make us believe, arguments from those max dps discussions are not always valid then.
As for the warlocks gain by a spriest. If you are so terribly mana inefficient with the horrible sbolt dpm, how would a spriest have a bigger effect on you than on a mage? The mana gain stays the same on you or on the mage.
The dps of a warlock after he is through his mana pool once stays stable (5 bolts 1 tap or something similar), a mages dps goes down to wanding once he is through his mana pool and gem/pot is on cd. It might just all be perception and im sure that warlocks also gain dps by having a spriest. The real question a raid leader is asking himself is which group gains the most from the spriest.
Lifetapping has a set amount of damage lost for a set amount of mana gained. Mages have an assortment of things that trade a varying amount of damage for a set amount of mana gained. If the tradeoff for the lock is better, it makes sense to give them the spriest regen.
Copernicus's post states that he can nuke for about 5 minutes before going oom. That covers a substantial number of fights before their dps goes to 0.
Base mana abilities dont get affected by your int. As a druid im quiet happy about it because Rebirth for example costs 68% of base mana. Not exactly 7k mana cost for me raidbuffed.
Except that the new lifetap works off max hp & max mana and not base values. I'm not sure why other classes seem to have trouble relating to this nerf. Would it make sense if
Bloodrage cost 16% of max hp?
Innervate cost 16% of max mana?
Shadowfiend cost 16% of max mana?
Except that the new lifetap works off max hp & max mana and not base values. I'm not sure why other classes seem to have trouble relating to this nerf. Would it make sense if
Bloodrage cost 16% of max hp?
Innervate cost 16% of max mana?
Shadowfiend cost 16% of max mana?
Sorry my bad. I have trouble with checking screenshots it seems.
Mmo-champion has the same trouble though!
Lifetap
Lifetap now converts a % of your base health and mana.
(Long time reader, second time poster.) This may sound shocking to some, but when I raid we generally have 1 shadow priest, and the healers get that. The rest of us use pots and whatever class abilities we have. I'm assuming this is somewhat unusual after reading peoples' replies here, evidently others have somewhat more SP's that are worth bringing to raids.
On the subject of mages. I'm unsure how they could rectify spirit for mages so that it is more of a 'useful' stat for all specs. Perhaps something like the paladin spiritual attunement class ability that grants a passive effect (Such as a modifier to spell costs based upon spirit, or somesuch). I'm sure they're thinking of something, otherwise they wouldn't be stacking so much spirit onto mage gear. Then again I could just be talking out of my posterior.
If they want to make Spirit useful to mages without any real major changes they could accomplish it very easily.
Take off the 18 all resists from Mage Armor and replace it with an equivalent ilevel of +damage. Which, according to wowwiki, would be ~52 damage/healing. Keep the mana regen component the same and now you have a situation where all specs of mages will want to use Mage Armor while raiding in single target situations but will still want to use Molten Armor during AE situations, since crit allows you to get over the AE cap. Molten Armor will also continue to be useful during PvP for the critical strike reduction and the chance to proc impact if specced that way.
Lifetapping has a set amount of damage lost for a set amount of mana gained. Mages have an assortment of things that trade a varying amount of damage for a set amount of mana gained. If the tradeoff for the lock is better, it makes sense to give them the spriest regen.
Copernicus's post states that he can nuke for about 5 minutes before going oom. That covers a substantial number of fights before their dps goes to 0.
Four minutes.
Less if I'm missing buffs like Divine Spirit, Judgement of Wisdom, Blessing of Wisdom, or Mana Sprint/Tide totems. On our Gorefiend kills that were slightly under 3.5 minutes, I was able to barely go without a shadow priest and with a Judgement of Wisdom. That was with inefficient mana recovery, due to not maximizing my potion/mana gem cooldowns.
02/23/08, 4:11 PM
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