Lookit

Bear in mind that the amount of stamina you have has no bearing on how much mana you get. All this change does is encourage warlocks to stack more Int, which is something they didn't really have to worry about before. I can't say I find it surprising that an ability that gave a class unlimited mana has been reigned in a bit. As for the increased health cost as your stamina increases, I don't think the warlock will be affected by that much in PvE. Your healers will still top you off as needed.

As long as a warlock focuses more on gearing for Int, they shouldn't have much trouble adapting to this change. PvP is of course a different story, but in an environment where players live and die by their mana bar but are unable to use pots or other regen consumables, I think it could be argued that lifetap was a bit more of an advantage that the developers had intended.

 

Gumibear

The low ranks of life tap are most useful for soloing or for Warlock-tank fights. Illidan can potentially burst me pretty hard if I get an unlucky 25% resist right before he flame bursts the raid. I'll sometimes run OOM at those times and it's helpful to have small life taps so I can get just enough mana to use Seed of Corruption for shadow demons.

There also moments when something will force me to move before a max rank life tap could be fully used, so a lower rank is nice to make the best of a bad situation.

As has been stated many, many times already, such itemization does not exist. We do not consciously choose to have much higher HP than mana outside of PvP. The gear is just made to have more HP than mana and alternatives are not available.

 

◊ Praetorian

Everyone keeps saying this. Give me links to items that are "geared for int" that a smart t6 warlock should use if this change goes live in 2.4.

Again, the key point for PvE locks is that they don't care all that much how much hp they lose when tapping (I mean, it's a factor, but not the primary one) -- they care about how much mana they get back per GCD. Change 15% to something in the low 20s, and even though the hp:mana ratio won't improve at all, you won't really hear PvE locks complain.

 

Edghar

Threat generation for tanks gets worse as your mitigation improves due to lack of rage. Ask a tier 6 geared tank to run a heroic and he'd likely have to take his pants off to generate decent threat.

 

Krazen

It is a pretty big deal on any fight with randomly targeted damage. Ask anyone who has lifetapped on Council only to have a flamestrike plopped on their face.

 

• Playered

Thats the problem though, they want to change how you can easily convert mana in PvP like that, and the most prevailant concern is the large downsides the current incarnation has on PvE.


I dont understand the issues of healers having to heal you more, I seriously doubt this is a real issue and if you organized it properly so you got a Renew/Rejuv/Lifebloom beforehand you are compeltly 'safe' in doing it, and LT on IC? everyone else manages on their normal HP pools (around 10k) where Warlocks sit higher by a margin of more than 1 LT im sure (as Sta is your primary stat, that you have so much of..).

 

Kasi

I've done the fight many times. Raid buffed locks already have 2-3k more health than any other caster. Having your lifetap take 15% more health won't affect much unless you're being stupid about it.

 

Skyhoof

This is especially true if Blizzard wants to make arena and PVP a more prominent part of the game. As talents and abilities increase, the PVP and PVE balancing act becomes increasing precarious. Blizzard has done a good job so far but this change to life tap shows they may have reached their limit.

I wonder if Blizzard is philosophically opposed to such a PVP and PVE split or if the issue is more the computer programming involved. How difficult would it be to have one coefficient of Druid HoTs in the arena and a separate coefficient outside? Same with lifetap.

 

tedv

That's a good point, but it's only as issue once the tank has well over-geared the content-- the rage is still plentiful in any situation where you need a T6 geared tank. That's different from the lifetap change, because it's a nerf at any gear point once a warlock has reached the level cap.

I cast Shadow Word: Death a reasonable amount on Council, losing more health than a life tap would cost (and with naturally lower stamina). While it's a bit scary, it hasn't yet been the cause of my death.

 

savernon

While this is true, and I even find it at the much less than T6 level my druid is geared at, there is a viable alternative. They can just put on some dps gear that they have gotten, then they both take more damage to get more rage to use on threat producing moves, AND simultaneously do more damage for more white damage / SS threat. There really isn't a corresponding situation where a warlock can swap out some pieces to get a better return on lifetap while not loosing dps, thus negating the whole point of swapping the gear.

 

dakalro

A very simple formula would be (max rank atm):
manaReturn = 580 + 0.8 * max(spellDamageBonuses)
healthCost = maxHP/maxMana * manaReturn

There remains the issue of downranking but that's actually the reason they changed this probably, and not simply up the health cost.

For anyone suggesting stacking intellect please show us any gear that has massive int and will not affect dps, that's at least close to best, because no other class I know sacrifices output.

And it's so very ironic to see that while we finally got Life Tap to scale after years of attempting to make blizzard do it we now make it scale backwards (because I don't see myself getting more int in sunwell gear) and at a so much smaller rate.

And this is the main concern, that while old LT would have scaled for another 80 or so mana, new LT will give 80 or so mana less by the end of Sunwell and will remain static until reitemization occurs (wouldn't be against Demonic Int tbh with this change ). And static Life Tap was the one biggest concern of the warlock comunity for 2 years until they finally gave in.

In the end if they're so fixed on the pvp state of things it's gonna stay in like this, and we're gonna whine and get 0 scaling until WotLK but really hope they come with a better idea (maybe 2 versions of LT? one rank 1 15%, one rank 2 with formula I posted).

 

Krazen

That higher HP is there because we don't have the same emergency iceblock/bubble that other classes have to provide us with some margin for error.

Congrats on being a better player than most and not needing that margin, but its not like our PvE survivability was leaps and bounds ahead of rogues, hunters, or other PvE dps classes.

Nobody likes to be nerfed, especially without reason.

 

Tacitus

They should just use two rulesets for PVE and PVP like Diablo II did. And change your sig It can't be that difficult, since they proved that they can do it with the Arena water change. If they can flag an item to funcion differently in a PVP instance and make a spell work differently when used on players (CC, CoD) I'm quite sure that they have the means to make a spell funcion differently when used in PVP combat/PVP flagged zones (not counting contested, but PVP Arenas they have). Maybe it's a hardware issue, I don't know.

Brotherhood, Peace, Unity

Welcome back, Comrade

 

Dryssa

Warrior tanking. As their gear scales up, they take less damage, thus generating less rage, lessening their ability to hold aggro. This problem has been in the game since launch and has yet to be addressed.

 

Cohren

The best idea thus far that I have seen is to just tie life tap to resilience. Most PvE Warlocks will have a very small(if any) amount of resilience on their raiding gear so they will be more or less unaffected. In the arena however, the same negative scaling we see right now in both PvE and PvP would occur independently of PvE.


Edit:

While threat generation decreases(this is a problem) the effectiveness of Heroic Strike, Taunt, Revenge, Shield Slam, <Druid skill/talent> does not generate less threat or do less damage.

 

Zaq

You've been decidedly fortunate then, IC Is really not a nice fight to have to lifetap on.

I think it's worth adding some numbers to Gurg's point about the total lack of Int gear around for warlocks.
Consider:
T5 Set :Corruptor Raiment - Item Sets - World of Warcraft 240stam, 146Int
T6 Set (Not Including the Everchanging SP pieces):Malefic Raiment - Item Sets - World of Warcraft 278Stam, 158 Int

Think about that for a moment please. 38 stam v 12 int of upgrade, and a not quite 2-1 ratio of stam-int on the warlock sets. This trend continues in non set, but warlock focused items, like the shadow damage badge offhand, the Kara trash neck, and the Nethervoid Cloak among others. This was fine given how stamina provided a buffer for the dangers of lifetapping. And, along with several talents and buffs in a Pve environment further increased the stamina total of locks far, far beyond their mana pool.

Now, consider the warlock pvp set.
Vengeful Gladiator's Dreadgear - Item Sets - World of Warcraft 324stam, 119 Int.
If as Eyonix says, it's about lowering the pvp stamina of warlocks, and increasing their value of int, Why doesn't blizzard just change the arena set stats to have more int on them? After all warlocks socket primarily stamina in their pvp gear because it's our primary defense, and that differential only gets worse.

Negative scaling is a terrible mechanism, and as any rage starved overgeared tank knows, it's beyond idiotic to be seemingly punished for having better gear. Consider something else. For warlocks tanking Capernian, Leotharas, or Illidan, how much intellect is on their resistance gear? None.

"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

 

Akj

Lifetap Rank 1: Restores 10% of your max mana for an equal amount of health (1:1)
Lifetap Rank 2: Restores 20% of your max mana for an equal amount of health (1:1)

Improved Lifetap: Restores 10/20% additional mana at an equal cost to health (1:1)

Lifetap still scales off int but PvErs are unaffected & PvPers get less mana back due to a smaller mana pool. Simple and non backwards change instead of the current absurdity.

 

Rouncer

Not saying the itemization is currently in place to support it but there are plenty of options that give intellect and no stamina just like there are items with stamina but no intellect.

Currently the item with stamina and no intellect would be looked on as being better by most locks. If the new mechanic goes into place then it switches and now the item with intellect is arguably potentially superior, since the stamina becomes a secondary consideration since it only plays a role in survival not having anything to do with mana regen.

Sure I'm talking generalizations but everyone keeps saying that it is a horrible nerf and a class ruining mechanic and I'm looking at it from the other side as something with a lot of potential, in PvE, if it can be utilized through the itemization.


It's a set percentage of your max health and a set percentage of your max mana that means it scales with each stat perfectly. Sure it is a nerf if the mana returns from the new mechanic are such that you get less mana per tap under the new mechanic then the old one but that is a separate issue then the actual mechanic. If there is a nerf in the lock's dps due to the change then that should be what is looked at unless it is the effect that blizzard is intending.

Would be pretty easy to take some of the stamina on the warlock set and all the +shadow damage pieces and convert it into enough intellect to keep the life taps consistant under the new mechanic at the various tiers of gear.

 

• Chicken

That isn't just a Warrior tanking issue. It applies to all tanks in a way. Speaking as a Protection Paladin the problem is most apparent in fights you outgear with single mobs which nevertheless have a good deal of health. You'll be running low on mana before having generated enough threat to keep the mob on you for the entire fight. Most of Karazhan and the Eagle and Lynx bosses in Zul'aman are examples of fights where I suffer such issues. Technically on Malacrass too, but due to the fact that you get plenty of time to make a headstart on him it's less of an issue.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Kasi

Look at Hope's post. Shadow Priests fall at the low end for raid buffed health. Usually a good 3k below a warlock if not more. They also have a spell that damages them for a signifigant amount that is part of their dps cycle. And their only oh shit button is pws. There are also other classes than mages. Moonkins for example, elemental shamans, hunters, etc. There is a reason the nerf is happening. Eyonix already mentioned it with warlocks not having to pay a high price for keeping their mana up in pvp. You might not agree with the reason, but it is there. And yes your survivability is higher. Anyone who has done raids with a warlock knows they have a clear 2k health buffer over any ranged dps'er in the raid. It is signifigant.

Edit: That being said, Akj's proposal is a good way to make this based off mana and not off health so the only people it would then affect in pve would be warlock tanks, not every warlock across the board.

 

Tacitus

And we tap that buffer away in a single Life Tap. If we for some reason Tap more than once (saving tapping for changing position for example) our health drops like a stone.

Brotherhood, Peace, Unity

Welcome back, Comrade

 

Zaq

Like which?

"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

 

◊ Praetorian

Again, links please?

Here is a complete list of warlock-usable TBC epic armor with >25 int and <20 stam:
[Cord of Braided Troll Hair]
[Medallion of the Lightbearer]
[Pauldrons of the Solace-Giver]
[Pendant of the Violet Eye]
[Powerheal 4000 Lens]
[Ring of Calming Waves]

Yeah... grats warlocks?

Items that are int-weighted really don't exist. So unless Blizzard plans on introducing dozens of new warlock items of all tiers, there's a problem here.

 

• Playered

They dont want to have more than 1 rank because downranking is overpowered in PvP.

 

Lodekim

I think what Gurgthock is pointing out is really the base problem. At 15% max hp for 15% max mana it's a dps loss in PVE, and there's no real way around it. My understanding of it is that it would be better for raiding warlocks if it was a higher % of both. I know when the change was first posted and people were reporting 26% hp for 26% mana one of our warlocks was talking about how that was actually pretty nice, 4 taps and he's full from empty (over time of course).

I'm no expert on warlocks, (but I raid with plenty) would it be reasonable (PVE wise) for a second rank which was a higher % of max hp for a higher % of max mana? I assume for pvp purposes 15% for 15% is where Blizzard wants it balanced, a warlock taking 26% of their hp in a life tap in pvp is a little too much, but they didn't want it to not even be a concern. In pve however, it's a direct loss of damage, would it be even a buff perhaps if they made it a higher %? There's no fight in the game where you absolutely have to life tap right as you're taking big damage elsewhere (that I've seen) could two ranks of this so that raiding warlocks can still get mana back reasonably, but at a higher health cost work? It's already been shown that the HOT's on a warlock are already more than enough healing, and it would still be negligible for a healer at a higher % in most scenarios.


edit: and as for losing more hp as your gear improves, you're still losing the same %, you're still going to have a net higher hp after tapping if you gain stamina. It's just that warlocks have had stamina and mana tied together for so long that people seem to forget one itemization choice does not have to affect all aspects of game play. When I gain avoidance I don't gain threat. When I pick up a threat item my survivability doesn't go up. When you pick up stamina gear, you still gain survivability. Now ideally, int based gear would become more available with this change, but I don't see it costing more total HP being game breaking, I'd be more concerned about the necessary through-put that is in the fact you have to life tap more because you're gaining less mana.