Besides 2.4 Sunwell Badge loot beeing superior to hunter T5, or at least very close (yes, you don't get the bonus), the 2.4 craftables (especially the chest who requires non-raiding mats) are even more powerfull. Coming from a person who leveled LW just for Boots of the Crimson Hawk, i will level LW again just for that chest.
the current cloth badge gloves are vastly superior to the mage T5 gloves. Also, as mentioned, the craftables come from sunwell so naturally they'd be around the same item level as sunwell gear. There's nothing new here, boots/belt of blasting and mantle/bracers of nimble thought are the best for their slots in their respective tiers, and though the patterns and some mats drop in raid instances all can be obtained via AH.
You're missing his point. Blizzard tunes content around the assumption people will use available consumables. So, if you 'ban mana pots' they will assume you'll now use your potion cd for something else. And something else will likely cost more to make than the aforementioned mana pots.
Like what, a spell haste potion?
Most other potions are reactive, intended to be used at an ideal time or in a critical moment to receive some special effect. Not some kind of preemptive act to ensure that your long-term resources won't expire too soon. This means that not only are "produces X effect for Y seconds" potions more prone to special cases, but they're also the the first to be made obsolete as players become comfortable with the content (because they frankly don't offer the same kind of power).
I don't particularly approve of any consumable that offers significant benefit to chain-chugging in a raid environment, but there's no doubt that mana potions are the worst of these. At least haste potions and the like offer some tangible, mildly-entertaining performance spike.
And hopefully, the changes we're seeing are some indication that Blizzard intends to nuke mana potions from orbit in WotLK, at least in raid settings.
Your post makes 0 sense. Let's break it down: chainchugging mana potions is essentially REQUIRED for any high level PvE. There is no getting around that fact. You should ask your healers about their mana pot usage. Chainchugging mana pots is such a huge gain in mp5 that any raiding healer and most raiding caster DPS does it.
Arguably, this is why a lot of people are turning to PvP: Because PvE requires flask farming and pot farming, and PvP requires 0 farming.
Yes, if I had the power of a Blizzard dev, I would ban mana potting in raids, or offer free mana pots in instances (and even blizz recognizes this, we have the Bottled Nethergon mana pots and health pots, plus the Illidari flasks). And even if Blizz did this, yes I would look around for other consumables to use on my potion timer.
My whole point is that for 90% of the people who are here, we are all looking to push theoretical maximums. This is done by using EVERYTHING that is out there. If you remove mana pots, it will just be something else being chain chugged because it will provide the greatest effect for the given cooldown. I have no problem with Illidari flask and Nethergon Pots, as I think they are a nice reward... if anything more pots should drop.
Chain chugging is not REQUIRED for everyone.... I know that healers are stretched, but that might also be a sign that you are bringing too few healers. You are currently able to bring fewer heals because you force your heals to chain chug so they don't have mana issues. Caster DPS only chain chugs because it allows them to do more damage... it's far from "required". Right now many casters use inefficient cast sequences because they lean on potions to help them... and thats exactly what potions should be for. Its a matter of cost vs benefit. I imagine that all guilds that have bosses on farm use considerably less potions then those learning... and doesn't that just make sense??
Further... it's very true that things are being tuned assuming EVERYONE is fully flasked and potted (hence Flaskateurs on the PTR). But i think this is just another example of them creating a "hard mode" for the first wave of hardcore raiders and we will see subsequent nerfs that will permit a little more flexibility leading to more guilds being sucessful.
Last edited by Uglesh : 02/26/08 at 12:27 PM.
Reason: Editted for Content
It seems very peculiar that you claim that everyone loves min/maxxing so much that they'll chug any potion they can, and then go on to suggest that raids should bring more healers. Isn't this contradictory?
The problem with potions is that the difference between using them and not using them is so great. As people have pointed out before, over four times the effect of the equivalent flask. Your arguement is that such an increase, despite how great it is, is not the difference between beating an encounter or not. I would disagree, because player choices about gear selection and raid composition are currently based around mana pots, and raiding would therefore have to be approached in a different matter without them. Whereas if you weren't dropping haste pots, it doesn't qualitatively affect your raid output. Every other consumable is basically sane in its contribution to the raid, and mana pots are simply out line with the rest of them from a quantitative point of view, and far enough out of line that they start having qualitative repurcussions.
Chain chugging is not REQUIRED for everyone.... I know that healers are stretched, but that might also be a sign that you are bringing too few healers. You are currently able to bring fewer heals because you force your heals to chain chug so they don't have mana issues. Caster DPS only chain chugs because it allows them to do more damage... it's far from "required". Right now many casters use inefficient cast sequences because they lean on potions to help them... and thats exactly what potions should be for. Its a matter of cost vs benefit.
You're ideas aren't outlandish, however, perhaps if you'd experienced the healing requirements of learning HWN or Bloodboil or Illidari Council or MotherSharaz, you'd better understand the reason people are spamming mana potions. It's certainly not essential at your progression stage to chain chug, but the demands on output from your mana classes become considerably more later in the raid game..
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali
It seems very peculiar that you claim that everyone loves min/maxxing so much that they'll chug any potion they can, and then go on to suggest that raids should bring more healers. Isn't this contradictory?
No. If you're not chain-chugging potions and you replace a DPS with a healer, you're not maximizing your DPS any longer, which restricts your ability to do cutting edge content. If raid X can get through boss Y with pots/flasks/whatever, and can only get through boss Y-Z without, then it will take more cycles of farming gear off of bosses Y-Z and below before they innately have the ability to get through boss Y. In that case, he's exactly right that chugging pots is min/maxing and subbing in a healer, while it leads to slower progression, is not.
A reasonable question though is whether or not Blizzard has done a good enough job at itemizing drops such that further farming of gear from the same subset of bosses is sufficient to increase overall raid ability to the point that this actually works.
My whole point is that for 90% of the people who are here, we are all looking to push theoretical maximums. This is done by using EVERYTHING that is out there. If you remove mana pots, it will just be something else being chain chugged because it will provide the greatest effect for the given cooldown. I have no problem with Illidari flask and Nethergon Pots, as I think they are a nice reward... if anything more pots should drop.
To be honest, I don't know if there is any other potion suitable for healers. [Haste Potion] only works on melee attacks, correct? [Destruction Potion] is only for caster DPS, I think. And as far as I know, there are no spell haste nor +heal temporary potions (Potions, not Elixirs). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, of course.
Originally Posted by Uglesh
Chain chugging is not REQUIRED for everyone.... I know that healers are stretched, but that might also be a sign that you are bringing too few healers. You are currently able to bring fewer heals because you force your heals to chain chug so they don't have mana issues. Caster DPS only chain chugs because it allows them to do more damage... it's far from "required". Right now many casters use inefficient cast sequences because they lean on potions to help them... and thats exactly what potions should be for. Its a matter of cost vs benefit. I imagine that all guilds that have bosses on farm use considerably less potions then those learning... and doesn't that just make sense??
Healers are stretched because there is far more raid-wide damage in BC raids. Pre BC raiding limited the damage mostly to the tank (with the exception of some gimmick fights like Vael and Razorgore), while post BC, it seems like every boss does some kind of damage aura, reactive damage, tons of spawning trash, fires on the ground, and so forth.
There's also far more enrage timers and DPS races in BC, I really shouldn't have to list them all. Pre BC, you could easily stack healers and drag fights for as long as possible (again, with the exception of some gimmick fights). Given this, is it surprising that guilds more often than not prefer to stack DPS?
Originally Posted by Uglesh
Further... it's very true that things are being tuned assuming EVERYONE is fully flasked and potted (hence Flaskateurs on the PTR). But i think this is just another example of them creating a "hard mode" for the first wave of hardcore raiders and we will see subsequent nerfs that will permit a little more flexibility leading to more guilds being sucessful.
I am honestly hard pressed to see how "hard mode" it is to farm/buy mana pots. There's no skill involved in mana potting, you simply right click on the pot every time the CD is up. And I think you realize this, because you said earlier "casters use inefficient cast sequences because they lean on potions to help them...". Either potions are a crutch for bad players or not, you can't have it both ways.
Mana potting is simply another timesink. That's it. Farm herbs, turn them into pots via alchemy/Farm gold, buy pots on the AH/Buy gold, buy pots on the AH, it's all the same thing. And I would argue, that is the very thing that is wrong with PvE and is the reason why everybody and their mother is flocking to arenas to get "welfare epics".
Don't get me wrong, I dislike Arenas, I think it's glorified dueling. I love PvE, and even if the potting/flasking requirements were doubled, I'd still PvE. But I still think it's silly to have such different rules for PvE and PvP regarding item usage, especially considering Blizzard is more than comfortable with nerfing PvE because of PvP changes (see: upcoming drinking nerf, Lifebloom nerf, etc).
Bliz will never get rid of mana pots for the simple reason that part of this game is professions. There is a delicate balance between the need for pots and the earning ability of the alchemy profession.
They wouldn't need to get rid of Alchemy; mana potions are one of a small number of things that an alchemist makes that are useful, i.e. Ironshield potions for the tanks, flasks for everyone, and those handy major <element> protection potions. It would hurt the profession, but it wouldn't cripple it.
Bliz will never get rid of mana pots for the simple reason that part of this game is professions. There is a delicate balance between the need for pots and the earning ability of the alchemy profession.
Well, the massive 2.1 elixir-stacking nerf happened, and that sure had large ramifications on the demand of alchemy products So I don't think there's any reason to assume that they put the usefulness of alchemy above the health of the raiding environment.
Someone correct my math if it's wrong, but it looks like Ironshields and Mana Pots need a huge nerf, and Destruction Pots need a buff, or else Destruction and Haste pots both need a big buff.
I imagine the reason you don't hear so much complaining about reliance on Ironshields as you do for mana pots, because only 1 person has to chug ironshields at a time, whereas 6-9 have to chug mana pots.
Someone correct my math if it's wrong, but it looks like Ironshields and Mana Pots need a huge nerf, and Destruction Pots need a buff, or else Destruction and Haste pots both need a big buff.
I imagine the reason you don't hear so much complaining about reliance on Ironshields as you do for mana pots, because only 1 person has to chug ironshields at a time, whereas 6-9 have to chug mana pots.
Edit: Nevermind, I'm dumb and didn't see it was accounted for
You also need to look at the time the effect lasts too. Ironshields last for the full two minutes, giving tanks an extra 2.5k armor constantly. Destro pots/ Haste pots last for 15 seconds of the 2 minute cooldown, effectively giving those 18.35 / 50 itemization points only 1/8th of the time. Super mana by nature is over the two minute duration, since it is mp5. This makes ironshield and mana pots come out further ahead.
The 1/8th multiplier is already present in those numbers. For instance, destro pots give 120 spell damage if you're only looking at the 15 second window.
What they should have done a long time ago is add a potion belt (newbies get 2 slots, quest for 3 slot in the mid-30's, group quest for 4 slot post 60, raid/pvp for a 5 slotter). Any potion/elixer/flask in the belt does not get consumed when used. Removing a potion from the potion belt locks that slot out for 15 minutes. Makes them essentially no different then enchants/augments/etc...
Mana pots are chain-chugged primarily by healers primarliy on new content. Once an encounter is considered farmable for your raid, chain-chugging goes away. While there will always be certain fights (Bloodboil, Mother) or certain portions of fights (Phase 2 Illidan) that will benefit greatly from mana potions, it certainly isn't required for every encounter. From a DPS standpoint, mana pots are used to maximize potential, but rarely are they the lynchpin to your success on an encounter. I certainly don't see the need to do away with them.
On the meta scale, WoW suffers because it tries to be all things to all people. It tries to have one system in place to satisfy both PvE and PvP, and that is a fine line to try to walk. That is the obvious problem, but it's not the real one. The REAL one is that the vast majority of people have the wrong idea about that their $15 per month is buying them. Many people think that it should buy them the guarantee of clearing all raid content and having a 2000 arena rating and that they should be able to do it in a timeframe that is convenient for them. They think it should buy them the top slot on their DPS and healing meters and if it doesn't, then obviously their class needs buffed and some other class needs nerfed. They don't understand that all they are entitled to is the opportunity to do those things, not the certainty of it. If they can't manage to do one or both either because of a lack of ability or time, then they cry out that things need to be nerfed or "tuned" differently. The end result is that a challenging and rewarding experience gets watered down for the lowest common denominator of the player base instead of the player base getting better. It's unfortunate.
People are out there right now clearing all the raid content and getting gladiator ranks (and in some cases, both) within the framework of the current system. If you can't do it, then the problem isn't with mana potions or raid stacking or anything else within the system. The problem is sitting on the other side of your keyboard.
Mana pots are chain-chugged primarily by healers primarliy on new content. Once an encounter is considered farmable for your raid, chain-chugging goes away. While there will always be certain fights (Bloodboil, Mother) or certain portions of fights (Phase 2 Illidan) that will benefit greatly from mana potions, it certainly isn't required for every encounter. From a DPS standpoint, mana pots are used to maximize potential, but rarely are they the lynchpin to your success on an encounter. I certainly don't see the need to do away with them.
True, but "new content" is always on the horizon. There are always going to be progression raids, and Blizz will keep adding new raiding content. What we're arguing about is why Blizzard forces healers to keep spamming mana pots on these types of raids.
Caster DPS only chain chugs because it allows them to do more damage... it's far from "required". Right now many casters use inefficient cast sequences because they lean on potions to help them... and thats exactly what potions should be for.
I don't feel the need to comment on your whole post but this part. inefficient cast sequence? So tell me how do I make my cast sequence more efficient than spamming fireball with a scorch mixed in once per 30 seconds? Do you even know what you are talking about? As a fire mage I either get a SP or chain chug potions if I want to dps the entire fight and if you think wanding to regen mana is an option you are completely crazy. Some fights I can chain chug potions and still run oom, mostly that is because Shahraz likes to be a bitch and drain all my mana.
They already nerfed the super mana potion mats ~8 months ago and they are fine. I have in my bank something like 300 super mana potions and herbs on my mule to make another 300 or so. Dreaming Glory and Felweed are the two most common and easiest to obtain herbs in TBC.
Your idea of inefficient cast sequences is completely off the wall though.
As for chain chugging, it doesn't happen much on farm content. Even for healers once they know a fight they know when they will have to use a potion to make it to the end of the fight. I would guess Shahraz, Council and Illidan phase 2 are about the only place our healers have to use mana potions now and maybe Gurtogg. The rest of the fights in the game don't require any potions at all.
People are out there right now clearing all the raid content and getting gladiator ranks (and in some cases, both) within the framework of the current system. If you can't do it, then the problem isn't with mana potions or raid stacking or anything else within the system. The problem is sitting on the other side of your keyboard.
I'm not quite sure what to get out of your post. On the one hand, you appear to be complaining about casual entitlement. On the other hand, you're claiming that because people manage to complete the content, that game mechanics must be perfect. Neither of these seem like particularly relevant or valid points to make.
Sad what it takes to get their frigging attention. I haven't seen Warlocks come together like this since the equally ridiculous Ruin nerf of '06 when negative resists were butchering people left and right.
Let's hope they've got the message and return a fair amount of mana per point of health taken away. A reduced ratio would be acceptable I think. But having neither the health lost, nor mana restored linked in any way was nothing short of absurd.
p.s. My name on the front of the post. Hell yeah!
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
All this talk of chain-mana-potting sounds suspiciously like an auxiliary to the life tap discussion. Really, if there are no new developments to discuss, it's ok to just, you know... not post, until there are some new changes.
02/26/08, 11:19 AM
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