2.4 PTR and Patch Notes - Page 122

flyingtoastr · 02/26/08, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by thevidon

The only real bonus I'm expecting to see from instant GW is quicker runs between the AH and the bank. GW is dispellable and doesnt break CC....I'm just not excited - and certainly wouldnt give up the stats for the 15% bonus that will almost never be useful.

I'm sure most people wouldn't consider the loss of stats worth it, but by doing this they are making sure no one is even tempted to try it out. Its just easier on everyone that way.

Prinsesa · 02/26/08, 11:02 PM

I know this is miles off topic, but is it unrealistic for the missing part of the item budgeting to be reflected in the set bonus?
Or, more importantly, is it possible that 2 set of five pieces each have the same total itemization points, while the individual, equivalent items have different itemization points?

That's certainly something to be considered, as we do know from Transcendence and Crystalforge changes that Blizzard takes set bonuses quite seriously.

I'm quite confident that Blizzard doesn't explicitly follow ilevels themselves, that they're simply trying to allocate stats as closely as possible without going over.

I'm just not excited - and certainly wouldnt give up the stats for the 15% bonus that will almost never be useful.

Then all this change did was to make sure it would never be useful at all, on the off-chance that someone might try to use it.

Illundai · 02/27/08, 4:06 AM

Brutallus appears to be enabled yet again. Some changes to the encounter that make me really wonder. Without going into too much specifics, Burn just got significantly harder to heal with some strategies.

bellator · 02/27/08, 4:29 AM

Without wanting to discuss strategies, may I ask what the timing is between each Meteor Strike from Brutallus? (apologies, and please disregard if this info is considered against Praetorian's anti strat's post)

Illundai · 02/27/08, 4:33 AM

All I'm gonna say is that he does it often. Very, very often.
Disregarding all of that, EU PTR is still having the same issues with invalid account information. I thought those servers were located in the same place? Anyhow...

I wonder how long they are intending to keep PTR going, I can't recall any instance being this extensively tested and I have a gutfeeling they're not gonna let us test Kil'Jaeden. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits after M'uru has received enough testing.

Pyros · 02/27/08, 5:24 AM

Originally Posted by Illundai

All I'm gonna say is that he does it often. Very, very often.
Disregarding all of that, EU PTR is still having the same issues with invalid account information. I thought those servers were located in the same place? Anyhow...

I wonder how long they are intending to keep PTR going, I can't recall any instance being this extensively tested and I have a gutfeeling they're not gonna let us test Kil'Jaeden. I wouldn't be surprised if they call it quits after M'uru has received enough testing.

Yeah what I think too. They've already had plenty of guilds testing every version of the boss encounters, mainly due to the fact they took so long to release new content(so finding guilds that are in perfect gear to test the content isn't terribly hard, compared to guilds that could farm naxx from the getgo). It might result in a lot of wasted PTR time though, if they still plan to gradually add little changes to pvp abilities, with nothing to actually test and just patch notes to react and theorycraft about. See locks.

Or they could patch rather fast(relatively), and make a 2.4.1 with S4 and more pvp changes.

Jayde · 02/27/08, 5:27 AM

Originally Posted by Lookit

That doesn't seem a very striking example. On one hand you have a socket, on the other you have +9 stam, +1 Int, and -2 healing. Depending on how you value the socket, they come out pretty even, with the [Bracers of Martyrdom] pulling ahead as you use a higher-quality gem.

Actually, this is a fun example because even if you socket it for the missing stat it comes out markedly ahead--especially given that the "missing" stat matches the color of the socket bonus, therefore granting that one as well.

Even using a Solid Azure Moonstone (which, let's face it, nobody actually does) Bracers of Martydom end up being -1 Int and +6 Healing.

The main point being that, despite being the same ilevel there is absolutely zero reason whatsoever to use one over the other, as one is statistically superior even though they have the "same" design.

Onomatopeizator · 02/27/08, 6:41 AM

Originally Posted by Enova

I know this is miles off topic, but is it unrealistic for the missing part of the item budgeting to be reflected in the set bonus?
Or, more importantly, is it possible that 2 set of five pieces each have the same total itemization points, while the individual, equivalent items have different itemization points?

Well, in this case, the Wastewalker bonuses are much better for PvE. I thought set bonuses are 'added' and not reflected in the cost in any way, but I'm a neophyte when it comes to item budgeting.
You can compare other pieces below. I haven't tried the point formulas on them, but it looks like Wastewalker comes ahead in most situatuations (possible exception being the gloves):

[Wastewalker Helm] vs. [Helm of Assassination]
[Wastewalker Gloves] vs. [Handgrips of Assassination]
[Wastewalker Leggings] vs. [Leggings of Assassination]
[Wastewalker Shoulderpads] vs. [Shoulderpads of Assassination]

Originally Posted by thevidon

The only real bonus I'm expecting to see from instant GW is quicker runs between the AH and the bank. GW is dispellable and doesnt break CC....I'm just not excited - and certainly wouldnt give up the stats for the 15% bonus that will almost never be useful.

I know of people that kept the old boots and used them for flag running, so I think it's a follow-up to the WSG tweaks.

• Rerox · 02/27/08, 7:17 AM

I'm not sure if anyone else noticed yet, but on my last PTR visit I noticed that the tooltip of the melee hitrating stat in the character window now also shows the ammount of armor penetration a character has.

Since I am on EU PR and most of us enjoy some leisure time off, due to authentication problems, I can't provide a sceenshot, but maybe there are more stats built into the new character window that weren't previously visible (like spellcasters haste)?

Would be nice if someone on US PTR could check out and post.

• trinket · 02/27/08, 7:29 AM

It has been showing spell haste since the first 2.4 build, as well as melee haste and armor penetration.
I'm guessing armory will undergo a much needed update when 2.4 comes out so they are shown there too.

• Rerox · 02/27/08, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by trinket

It has been showing spell haste since the first 2.4 build, as well as melee haste and armor penetration.

Since I normally don't hover over the stats in the character window, I didn't notice until recently, but thanks for clarifying.
Melee haste by the way is already shown on live servers in the character window.

Akka · 02/27/08, 7:49 AM

Originally Posted by ex-Taeme

I don't remember the slippers having any stats added or any change to their ilvl when they just pulled a big pile of crit off them. I'm sure people with a better memory can bring up other items that were changed in the same way.

Basically all the blue drops from pre-TBC instances were changed a lot, with usually a crazy increase in stats, all the while without a change of their ilevel.
Most striking example I can think of is the Arugal's robe, an 20-or-so ilvl robe giving the same +dmg as T1 chest piece (albeit with smaller stats, but still, 40-45 ilvl less).

You can also look at the Violet Eye reputation ring for mélée classes. One of the iteration bring only +1 to hit and +2 PA, and still the item is supposed to be 10 ilvl higher. Obviously bogus, even with the increased cost when stacking a stat.

As a final example, you had a lvl 100+ epic totem that reduced mana cost of lightning bolt by 10 (IIRC), and a lvl 80-90+ green totem which reduced mana cost of the same spell by 15. Quite telling ^^

ilvl seems pretty much an arbitrary guildeline, that Blizzard designers generally use but with quite a lot of margin.

• Daboran · 02/27/08, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Whitemane

But do we care? I don't, couldn't really care less. I really wanted to see some extra healing on that ring. There are certain stats you keep a track on and link to progression and gear level, intellect and stamina has certainly never been one for a druid.

It really depends on the encounter surely? For example doing Najentus with under 10k HP fully buffed is not exactly the best way to make your healers happy. My point is that it's just as risky making yourself a "glass healer" as it is wasteful to stack non-healing stats.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more raid/environmental damage coming in encounters to counter the mana regen boost coming up. If so you may well be pleased with that extra stamina

• Playered · 02/27/08, 11:23 AM

I think that because raw stats (Sta, Spi, Int...) have always been glanced over when looking at an items power in TBC, no one really goes "oh wow 10 more stamina and 5 more int!!" but they do get slightly excited over an extra 15 healing and a couple of MP5.

This is changing slightly in 2.4 where atleast Priests & Druids will look highly on Spirit but in return we will also treat MP5 as some lower life form that could of been Spirit instead =/

Would any caster DPS 'upgrade' an item where you loose Spell Damage and gain Sta & Int? would they look on an item with equal Spell Damage but upgraded Int / Sta / Spi* (by 5-8) as any form of real ugprade?

vorda · 02/27/08, 11:23 AM

I wouldn't be surprised to see more raid/environmental damage coming in encounters to counter the mana regen boost coming up

Not all classes got a boost, I'd be dissapointed and amazed if they intend to keep the boost at its current level aswell.

flyingtoastr · 02/27/08, 11:25 AM

Nothing terribly important, but the [Girdle of Hope] was retextured so it matches our Tier 6 set.

Live:

Test:

Wednesday · 02/27/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by vorda

Not all classes got a boost, I'd be dissapointed and amazed if they intend to keep the boost at its current level aswell.

Yea, I'm not sure what the thinking is on that. I can see why warlocks don't get a benefit from spirit, but why paladins and shaman don't doesn't make a terrible amount of sense to me. Perhaps a talent similar to meditation will show up in the resto and holy trees in the 45-50 range.

Caligula · 02/27/08, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Wednesday

Yea, I'm not sure what the thinking is on that. I can see why warlocks don't get a benefit from spirit, but why paladins and shaman don't doesn't make a terrible amount of sense to me. Perhaps a talent similar to meditation will show up in the resto and holy trees in the 45-50 range.

Man, Shaman just got a shit load of mana regeneration buffs last patch. The last thing we need is every class having the same talents just for the sake of consistency. Let the game have a little bit of variety. Shaman use MP/5, Paladins get mana return on crits, Priests/Druids get mana from Spirit and Int now. Homogenization is not the way to go here.

Kissmyaxe · 02/27/08, 12:13 PM

Well shamans don't benefit from spirit but then again I don't think there is a mail healing item with spirit on it.
I don't mind the fact that the base spirit and some from buffs is mostly useless.
With the new water shield most of the shaman problems were resolved.

flyingtoastr · 02/27/08, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Caligula

Man, Shaman just got a shit load of mana regeneration buffs last patch. The last thing we need is every class having the same talents just for the sake of consistency. Let the game have a little bit of variety. Shaman use MP/5, Paladins get mana return on crits, Priests/Druids get mana from Spirit and Int now. Homogenization is not the way to go here.

It seems to be a common misconception, but Paladins get no regen from crit. Crit is more akin to a simple random reduction in the cost of spells like a Priest's Clearcasting (though proccing a lot more often). We still end up spending more mana to get any back.

Ever since the (unneeded) nerf to Illumination in 2.1 the value of crit has been much lower than straight up Mp5 in terms of regen. With the absolutely huge buffs to the other classes' regen mechanics I would hope Blizzard sees fit to reverse the nerf so we can at leat remain marginally competitive healers.

We also still remain the only healer without any form of heavy activated regen (Innervate, Shadowfiend, Mana Tide). Really the only thing keeping us afloat at the moment is FoL's extreme efficiency.

Vaccine · 02/27/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Caligula

Man, Shaman just got a shit load of mana regeneration buffs last patch. The last thing we need is every class having the same talents just for the sake of consistency. Let the game have a little bit of variety. Shaman use MP/5, Paladins get mana return on crits, Priests/Druids get mana from Spirit and Int now. Homogenization is not the way to go here.

Well I'd hardly say that its a class defining trait, nor does it really matter in terms of variety. Nobody is going to pick Paladin over Druid because "they use MP/5!". In this aspect I think gear homogenisation is actually a positive thing in streamlining raid drops which seems to be the idea here.

Wednesday · 02/27/08, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

Well I'd hardly say that its a class defining trait, nor does it really matter in terms of variety. Nobody is going to pick Paladin over Druid because "they use MP/5!". In this aspect I think gear homogenisation is actually a positive thing in streamlining raid drops which seems to be the idea here.

He just doesn't want to have to share innervates

Personally I don't see a problem with all healers benefiting form the supposedly 'core' regeneration stat. Obviously it wouldn't be done with current itemization, but that doesn't stop them from adding it after the gear reset.

Wodahs · 02/27/08, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

It seems to be a common misconception, but Paladins get no regen from crit. Crit is more akin to a simple random reduction in the cost of spells like a Priest's Clearcasting (though proccing a lot more often). We still end up spending more mana to get any back.

Ever since the (unneeded) nerf to Illumination in 2.1 the value of crit has been much lower than straight up Mp5 in terms of regen. With the absolutely huge buffs to the other classes' regen mechanics I would hope Blizzard sees fit to reverse the nerf so we can at leat remain marginally competitive healers.

We also still remain the only healer without any form of heavy activated regen (Innervate, Shadowfiend, Mana Tide). Really the only thing keeping us afloat at the moment is FoL's extreme efficiency.

That is patently untrue. Mana regen is the mechanic in which your mana lasts longer through a fight. Illumination is a regen mechanic, in the sense that it makes your mana last longer through a fight. You do have divine illumination, divine favor, spiritual attunement, and a mechanic in which you get mana back for critical hits. Those all factor into 'mana regeneration'.

The illumination nerf which you are calling unneeded was a fix to the scaling of Paladin healing abilities. I remember threads on this forum showing at which point mana is no longer an issue for paladin, simply due to illuminations godly scaling. I find it hard to believe that you honestly thing your barely 'keeping afloat'.

With the spirit changes, Druids and Priests with already high regens will be getting higher I agree, but I dont see that as putting paladins out of a job.

Yenadar · 02/27/08, 12:48 PM

We also still remain the only healer without any form of heavy activated regen (Innervate, Shadowfiend, Mana Tide). Really the only thing keeping us afloat at the moment is FoL's extreme efficiency.

...unless you count running up to the boss and wacking on him for Seal / Judge of Wisdom returns, or standing in the fire until you are nearly dead.

As a protection specced, I don't have mana issues if I am the target, but if I am not the target, I am completely SoL at providing any level of function with my mana pool. It is too small already, and gets none of the efficiency of the Holy tree for healing, and if I attempt to DPS (ret gear or not), my angel wings last longer than my mana pool.

Spiritual Attunement is an amazing mana return ability, but it is entirely useless if you don't have a healer, and entirely useless if you aren't taking damage. Blizzard could play with this a bit, but it is still far behind inervate/gem/evocate/shadowfiend/watershield/Energy/symbolofhope in terms of actual effectiveness, simply due to the requirement of having to take damage, and then get healed by someone else for it to work.

Malan · 02/27/08, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

That is patently untrue. Mana regen is the mechanic in which your mana lasts longer through a fight. Illumination is a regen mechanic, in the sense that it makes your mana last longer through a fight.

No, the word you are thinking of is endurance or perhaps longevity. Mana Regeneration is the act of gaining back mana that was spent. Illumination is not a gain in mana, it is a reduction in mana spent. You can equate that to an equivalent value of mana regeneration that would provide the same longevity over a period of time, but it is not itself a mana regeneration mechanic.