Quit bickering over semantics. No one ever intentionally runs themselves oom and then stands around regenerating mana; the game is based around slowing your mana consumption sufficiently that boss dies before (or as) you run out of mana. "Regen" as conventionally (rather than technically) understood is longevity.
I think it's been obvious ever since meditation/intensity were changed to 30% and shamans got the new water shield that paladins need a buff. The easiest way to do it would be to just revert the illumination nerf - druids and priests have virtually unlimited mana with the new changes, so just give paladins back their unlimited mana too. I am very curious and interested in what Blizzard will do for healing paladins in WotLK however (and I have reasonable faith in their inventiveness to come up with something good).
On the topic of the Illumination scale back, I'm pretty sure before that happened there were vids of Awake (Nihilum's pally) spamming heals for the entire first kill fights and ending with like 85% mana. That was just too OP at the time in comparison with other healers so the nerf came. The case might be different today but back then it was necessary imo to give other healers a chance to compete for spots.
I don't think it'd be all that huge; it's still a long cooldown and it 'drops' agro.
As far as trading damage for healing ability I'd have to resent those comments. It's this line of thinking that got us to this sorry state in the first place. Granted it's not like I play the game anymore; but a lot of people play the class to heal and trading healing ability for damage is just giving away healing.
I'd hate to see the class even more centered around divine shield, though. It's a fun toy but shouldn't be our defining trait. And yes, I'd prefer to remain a "primary" healer without having to reroll.
As far as mana regen goes, Illumination isn't horrible. I wouldn't dump spell crit in favor of gearing like a shaman. I think the 60% value may or may not need to be looked at again in light of the upcoming changes. On our last council fight, my mana returns looked like this:
Vampiric Touch: 27.2k
Mp5: 22.4k
Illumination: 16.2k
Mana Spring: 4.7k
Meta gem: 3.9k
Mana Tide: 2.5k
Illidan trinket: 2.5k
Mana pot: 2.1k
Spiritual Attunement: 1.9k - A little boost, and not something you can really count toward your mana pool, since you are often forced to heal yourself or risk dying.
FSR: 0
Illumination scales with spell crit, and it also scales with INT and (standard) regen, because statistically it makes your mana pool go further. Or to be slightly more precise, the talent makes the rest of the paladin's heals scale in such a manner. Same as any cost reduction, except it's probabilistic instead of flat. But again, it's mostly semantics and a little bit of class differentiation--longevity mechanics occur in different forms that standard regen.
So, is this paladin illumination talk more or less related to patch 2.4 than the warlock lifetap banter? Because I'm still waiting on the rumored change so I can start talking about that again.
On the topic of the Illumination scale back, I'm pretty sure before that happened there were vids of Awake (Nihilum's pally) spamming heals for the entire first kill fights and ending with like 85% mana. That was just too OP at the time in comparison with other healers so the nerf came. The case might be different today but back then it was necessary imo to give other healers a chance to compete for spots.
This has nothing to do with Illumination.
Don't get me wrong, in 2.0 Paladins needed a nerf. But Illumination was not the culprit. It was all about Spiritual Atunement (the ability that gives us 10% of healing done on us into mana). Back in its original form any healing done to us would go directly into the mana pool. This included overhealing. You could simply grab your closest Shadow Priest, have him throw VE and VT on a target, and it truly was impossible to run out of mana. They fixed it in patch 2.1 by making OH not proc SA, which was entirely balanced, but also nerfed Illumination because we could still outlast the other healers. They finally fixed the other three classes' regen mechanics so they are on par with pallys, so now the "efficient healing class" has nothing going for it other than FoL's mana cost.
I would like to see crit become useful again. Even if they leave Illumination in its pathetic state, something like making pally healing spells crit at 200% would be so fun.
Reading this discussion, I can't really see the Int/Spirit change going live.
It's not that holy paladins would be less useful, it's that it seems to take mana considerations out of the game for the classes who are most concerned with them. The way PTR raiders are talking, it's like their druids and priests never even think about mana anymore.
If druids and priests no longer have to think about mana regen, then of course holy paladins are less viable. Even funnier, remember that part of the "utility" holy paladins and resto shamans bring is just more mana regen for other healers. So if you believe priest and druid regen is insane now, then you wouldn't even care about those buffs anymore (well, you'd care much less).
And I just don't see that happening, I don't see Blizzard letting priests and druids get that much mana so that they no longer worry about what spells they're casting or tricks to get out of the 5SR. And simultaneously nerfing the need for a TON of aspects of the current game (Shaman and Paladin buffs, Shadowpriests, Alchemy Stone, etc.)
It's not that holy paladins would be less useful, it's that it seems to take mana considerations out of the game for the classes who are most concerned with them. The way PTR raiders are talking, it's like their druids and priests never even think about mana anymore.
I don't think these changes are really aimed at catching other healers up to Paladins, rather, I see them as a broad attempt to fix overall issues with Spirit/Mana Regen among most classes.
Reading this discussion, I can't really see the Int/Spirit change going live.
~whine~
And I just don't see that happening, I don't see Blizzard letting priests and druids get that much mana so that they no longer worry about what spells they're casting or tricks to get out of the 5SR. And simultaneously nerfing the need for a TON of aspects of the current game (Shaman and Paladin buffs, Shadowpriests, Alchemy Stone, etc.)
Yes next patch a Priest or Druid can spam their max rank most expensive spells endlessly... idiot, its still not possible for anyone to do that nor is it wise to attempt.
Our base-gain (MP5) is slightly larger than the buff Water Shield got for Shamans - its going to be at most 60-100 MP5-passive for the majority of T5-T6 fully raid buffed players, exceptions on very high Spirit players of which there are not that many.
The most... odd thing about this change is how powerful the OO5SR regeneration becomes (for you this means regeneration after extended periods of not casting/spending mana) and the potentially uber-Innervate.
Oh and also this change effects the two classes which have 'struggled' against the lack of group/raid synergy for the most part (although IDS becomes far more attractive in 2.4) of TBC, I have no idea if that was even ment to be a consideration on this change but its an interesting thought - again as a very significant core change some info from Blizz about the reasoning would be rather helpful.
For the first X months of raiding, typical healer setup for was: 1IDS Priest, 1 Resto Druid, 1 Resto Shaman, and 3 Holy Paladin. Then add additional any spec healer to fill raid.
Since recent patches witch increases in mana regen for other classes, this is much more balanced (with having 2 Resto Shaman being nice, plus having a iDS + CoH priest).
Yes 2.4 this increases the trend.
Do I really have to point out that it wasn't balanced when raids favored 3 paladins/1 priest, and it won't be balanced if they favor 3 priests/1 paladin? For T6 content you were often best suited with two of each. Balance is good.
If druids and priests no longer have to think about mana regen, then of course holy paladins are less viable. Even funnier, remember that part of the "utility" holy paladins and resto shamans bring is just more mana regen for other healers. So if you believe priest and druid regen is insane now, then you wouldn't even care about those buffs anymore (well, you'd care much less).
Note that this problem is specific to druids/priests in high quality gear (and probably more pertinent for druids, who tend towards low-cost spells to begin with). And it's never an issue with a shadow priest in your group anyway.
These are issues with the mana regeneration model in WoW currently, which I made a huge post on in the mana regeneration thread. And it's exactly the sort of thing that's going to happen as Blizzard continues to attempt to plug mana conservation holes through scaling gear. And in the particular case of Spirit vs. MP5, they can't boost the attractiveness of Spirit beyond MP5 without opening themselves up to the possibility of druids/priests just stacking both stats and getting that much more out of it. And in any case, mana regeneration needs to be stabilized to bring the low end up and the high end down, if Blizzard intends to stick with a fixed-mana cost system. Which is a topic that I think is worth discussing in the mana regeneration thread.
Yes next patch a Priest or Druid can spam their max rank most expensive spells endlessly... idiot, its still not possible for anyone to do that nor is it wise to attempt.
Our base-gain (MP5) is slightly larger than the buff Water Shield got for Shamans - its going to be at most 60-100 MP5-passive for the majority of T5-T6 fully raid buffed players, exceptions on very high Spirit players of which there are not that many.
The most... odd thing about this change is how powerful the OO5SR regeneration becomes (for you this means regeneration after extended periods of not casting/spending mana) and the potentially uber-Innervate.
To this and the previous post:
Look, either
a) holy paladins are still going to be the best longevity healers because it's not much of a change, or
b) Priests and Druids won't need to worry about mana ever.
I haven't raided on the PTR so I honestly don't know which it will be. The rhetoric on these boards and people talking about never having to cast innervate or be in a shadowpriest group, implies B. But maybe they are being overblown.
The point is, that IF priests and druids overtake paladins in longevity, it changes huge parts of the game and not just the viability of paladins. Most of the skill of being a healing priest/druid is all about mana management. Many of the buffs other classes and professions bring are mana management. Throwing them out the window sounds... unlikely.
Yes the Int change was originally to change the philosophy behind mana regeneration. It seems very possible that Bliz developers considered one change, found that the result of the change was a nearly unlimited supply of mana, and will next decide "hey, let's town that down a little bit".
The way I see it, beating any boss shouldn't be determined by how much mana the healers have. In fact most of the time if a healer is potting then that's because some other healer died and extra healing needed to be done or dps died and the fight is lasting longer than it should. Bosses should be dropped on account of execution and coordination. Potions and elixers/flask are just a little extra help.
Even so, with all this increased mp5 I'm still having to pot very often in sunwell. So the change isn't the end all for mana issues. I expect with a full Sunwell setup I'd barely scrape by not needing pots for most of these fights we've already attempted.
I gain 55 mp5 with my kara/za gear come 2.4, it scales up nicely with bok/ab/et c and I have roughly 515 int and 500 spirit, if 50-70 mp5 while casting and 150-210 mp5 while not expending mana is gonna make your job as a holy paladin useless then I feel bad for you, I never thought that the priests and druids who, depending on group setup, may chain chug mana pots just to avoid the potential oom, could mean your death as a healer. I think it should be the title of much threads "priests and druids use less mana pots, I'm useless."
I feel like the change will stay, blizzard undoubtedly had the numbers for avg amount of spirit/int on priests/druids and knew what they were getting into. This change just means I use less pots if I'm not in the spriest group or don't have a resto shaman. Forgive me here but how does a well played priest or druid not using mana pots affect you? It's not like even under bad situations, if well played, we were going to hit oom. Further though, if all the benefit you see yourself offering is longevity then are you thrown out as the fights go on farm status and shorten as the dps increases? Ultimately you offer a lot more to a raid as holy paladins, you'll still be welcome, you won't suck, and you won't die when a mob sneezes. Yes much of your benefits can be offered in other specs, improved Fort isn't Holy specific, and IDS removes access to 8% + heal coef from gheal and removes coh; raid wide benefits are weird in wow, some classes get tons, others just get the benefits from others.
Don't take my sardonic attitude that holy paladins don't need buffs. I'm not an authority on that, but don't dare discount raid benefit, it's quite common to see more spriests than healing priests because of the awesome mp5 benefit they offer to a group; raid synergy + survivability are useful and you'll still be a welcomed healer standing near me, assuming you play well.
This change doesn't make flash heal spamming viable, it does allow priests and druids to be more aggressive healers when they are in less optimal group setups, I'll still focus on my clearcast + inner focus when I can get it, I'll still chain cancel casts as I can, on PTR I still notice that I use that mana pot button.
And to those who complain about unlimited mana, well I get stuck with that when I get an spriest in my group that is good, 200mp5+ from one after all assuming they aren't horrid. It seems to be that so many people think fights revolve around keeping your mana up, as if the priests are always already oom, it's just not the case from 5mans to 25 mans if well played.
That all said, I'm sorry that come 2.4 in some situations I'll use less mana pots, I feel bad that you have been eliminated by the super mana pot being slightly less spammed.
Do the spirit/int changes mean that Priests and Druids no longer need to pot? Do they mean that they can forgo either potting or an SP but not both? If the latter is the case, then the change might ultimately serve to reduce group competition for shadow priests. That seems like a welcome change now that there will be even more interest in shadow priests from warlocks.
Patch notes still state that "Nature’s Swiftness and Elemental Mastery now share a 10 second cooldown."
Currently on PTR that is not the case, just giving you a heads up! Want to get this fixed so poor Shamans don't get their hopes up and have another uproar on the forums!
The patch notes have not been updated with this change yet.
Do the spirit/int changes mean that Priests and Druids no longer need to pot? Do they mean that they can forgo either potting or an SP but not both? If the latter is the case, then the change might ultimately serve to reduce group competition for shadow priests. That seems like a welcome change now that there will be even more interest in shadow priests from warlocks.
Yes, essentially then means that a holy priest or resto druid will not be asking for spriests as much unless they are greedy--after all unlike shamans or paladins we don't even offer a measurable group wide benefit, tree aura is kinda not horrible, concentration aura from a pally on locks/mages can be especially nice in stuff such as RoS. Given the change I'll keep potting and rather have locks et c in the spriest group simply to make them go faster and longer. It comes down to a utilization of destruction pots/flamecap for mages and less life taps for locks, I support increased raid dps against encounters for that means less ae dmg to heal, less tank hp to heal, less time spent there waiting for some lock to life tap while walking into ae . You'll prob still see a shaman in an spriest group for + spell dmg totem/mana spring/mana tide(if resto) just to further enhance the spriest return.
Further this changes the utilization of innervate a bit, could be interesting to see how it's thrown around.
Its not that priests are replacing pallys because you now have unlimited mana. Its because you now have competitively equal regen/efficiency, which means you can bring a holy priest in the spot that a holy pally used to fill without losing anything. In 25-man raids if you can have a priest who can single target heal with the same efficiency as a paladin while also bringing another PoM, Renew, shield, and group healing in the form of CoH/PoH why would you bring the pally who can only do one thing, spam a tank?
And again, no "Blessings mean pallys are viable" argument. You only need Kings (have your prot pally give it) and Salvation (have your ret pally give it). Holy Pallys give exactly the same buffs as every other spec, so you're not losing anything by dumping your extra holydins.
Its not that priests are replacing pallys because you now have unlimited mana. Its because you now have competitively equal regen/efficiency, which means you can bring a holy priest in the spot that a holy pally used to fill without losing anything. In 25-man raids if you can have a priest who can single target heal with the same efficiency as a paladin while also bringing another PoM, Renew, shield, and group healing in the form of CoH/PoH why would you bring the pally who can only do one thing, spam a tank?
And again, no "Blessings mean pallys are viable" argument. You only need Kings (have your prot pally give it) and Salvation (have your ret pally give it). Holy Pallys give exactly the same buffs as every other spec, so you're not losing anything by dumping your extra holydins.
You still lose aura, survivability, and random raid benefits like BoP I assume you are making up for with another "off-spec" paladin. You have two heals, we have quite a bit more, maybe you need a buff, but a well played priest isn't going to go oom now, especially with a good setup, or in 2.4, so according to you right now you are replaced. If that is the case I'm sorry, but a lot of raid leaders are apparently ignorant of holy paladins uselessness.
Regen/efficiency is not going to replace you, let me say it again, we're not running oom now. We're just chain potting in circumstances, and I don't know any raid leaders who will say "we'll let's bring a paladin because they won't have to use pots but that priest, who brings a lot more healing wise will." You're claiming to be pushed out because priests and druids are using slightly less potions it's that simple. People look at healing and there you do lack, the idea that you can last forever is pointless, no one needs to last forever, the boss dies.
Say priests can heal a tank with GH 5 as well as a paladin can with HL 9. If they're not needed on tank healing, they can raid heal effectively. They have an efficient big heal, a fast emergency heal, a hot, and a group heal. Paladins have a big heal and an efficient small heal that's becoming obsolete as incoming damage increases. There hasn't been a fight in sunwell yet where I haven't said that I wished we had more priests.
I've never said the sky is falling... it is the PTR after all. But either Illumination or the tools we have for healing may need another look.
Do I really have to point out that it wasn't balanced when raids favored 3 paladins/1 priest, and it won't be balanced if they favor 3 priests/1 paladin? For T6 content you were often best suited with two of each. Balance is good.
I don't see whats wrong with 3 paladins and 1-2 priests when theres 0 prot/ret and 2 shadow also in the raid.
I've never said the sky is falling... it is the PTR after all. But either Illumination or the tools we have for healing may need another look.
Well thats what the PTR is for after all. Test things and they get tweeked so that everyone is equally happy or unhappy.
Add to the ilumination talent an increases healing done by crits by 60% as well, I dont know if that would "fix" FoL spam in makeing it viable but the buff would benfeit downranking HL a good bit.
And to those who complain about unlimited mana, well I get stuck with that when I get an spriest in my group that is good, 200mp5+ from one after all assuming they aren't horrid. It seems to be that so many people think fights revolve around keeping your mana up, as if the priests are always already oom, it's just not the case from 5mans to 25 mans if well played.
Frigg, just from checking out your gear I would say you haven't been through a Blood Boil, Council, RoS, Illidan P2 fight and honestly in those, for a CoH spam priest or HoT (regrowth mostly, Lifebloom is so efficient) spam druid, mana can get dicey. Those are the fights that test how long you can keep your hps going. The discussion here really does pertain to the top end raiders because those are the guys in the most demanding fights and they have the greatest spirit stack opportunity, so don't think just because GH canceling on hydross means a priest stays full mana even without the new spirit buff, that keeping your mana up doesn't matter when you have to mash CoH just to keep your raid alive.
Say priests can heal a tank with GH 5 as well as a paladin can with HL 9. If they're not needed on tank healing, they can raid heal effectively. They have an efficient big heal, a fast emergency heal, a hot, and a group heal. Paladins have a big heal and an efficient small heal that's becoming obsolete as incoming damage increases. There hasn't been a fight in sunwell yet where I haven't said that I wished we had more priests.
I've never said the sky is falling... it is the PTR after all. But either Illumination or the tools we have for healing may need another look.
Holy light is 25% more hp/s than gheal and healing wave. Fol is still the only efficient 1.5s heal. You still have your niche.
At the current level of +heal and assuming BoL, HL 9 is 12% more HPS than GH 5 (max rank spamming isn't sustainable for either class). As more +healing becomes available, this margin decreases due to BoL not scaling with gear. And really, if your long casters are spamming on tanks rather than a cancel now and then, you don't have enough healing assigned to the tank.
I think the issue is more complicated than simple better regen for priests/druids. More and more encounter focus on spiky raid damage to test healers where throughput and group healing are king. Tank healing for the most part is a boring and easy job which druids excel in with lifebloom/rejuv/swiftmend. So much so that even having the least geared healer on the tank along with one or two druids does the job entirely. Shamans and Priests are amazing group healers. Which leaves paladins the niche of supplement tank healing on top of druid HoTs, which priests (and even shamans) do a fine job at if there are no paladins. Paladins have their well defined role in a raid healing scheme, the problem is that role has been de-emphasized greatly and other healers are similarly equipped to handle it. This change in itself does nothing to make holy paladins more or less effective. It is the content and the evolution of raid encounters which can be seen even in BT. Even changing illumination back to 100% wont do much to change this.
Unfortunately PvP again becomes an issue here to prevent any significant increase in paladin healing arsenal. Not sure what they can change in the short run that would make paladins preferred PvE healers while not unbalancing PvP too much.
02/27/08, 3:12 PM
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