I guess Life Tap is overall better this way, a pvp nurf and actually a pve buff. But what I don't understand is this fixture on using max hp and max mana. Warlock gear is itemized for HP, not for max mana. Punishing warlocks for having high HP just seems really bad design. Is it dev's intention that we remove fortitude in some fights without heavy spike dmg to decrease the healing we need after tapping? That just cannot be right. Being punished for stacking a good stat is just so wrong, just very poor design.
The whole thing with looking at max mana should be dropped and it needs to be based on max hp only. Maybe lose 20% hp, gain 15% of hp as mana. With such a version downranking lifetap in pvp might be quite good with very sta heavy gear, so just make it one max rank. Knowing when to lifetap is also part of playing correctly and not just pressing another rank when you are getting hit.
As an alchemist, you can easily transmute the mats over the course of a few weeks.
If you are alchemist now you most likely have the old stone and "only" need the primals and vortices.
I was very close to dropping alchemy in favour of JC (SW neck seems kinda nice) but now I'm happy I didn't do that yet. The healing trinket seems to be potentially the best healing trinket in game - even with the unconfirmed SWP drop.
Well maybe I missed the memo, but I can remember some outcry when they changed windfury in a way that disallowed having it enchanted on MH and OH at the same time using different ranks. Did that change?
Yet still, having a MS Debuff applied per autoattack by a fast swinging OH... I can´t believe this will make it live.
The caster trinket isn't situational, it's downright pointless. There's no possible way to use 54 spell hit in tier 6 & 7 gear - it's simply too much, and put's you well over the hit cap. Combine that with DPS casters wanting to use destruction pots over mana pots anyway, and I don't see why anyone would use this. Fundamentally, the fact remains that most classes don't use healing or mana potions, so having the major effect on the trinket be a boost to those means the trinket is wasted outside of healers. The only caster class that does make regular use of mana potions (Arcane specced mages) doesn't ever need 54 spell hit thanks to the 10% to hit talent.
Also, Blizzard need to adjust the primal requirements on these. 16 primals of one type is too many - it needs to be roken down into 8 of one type and 8 of another.
The main problem with the trinkets for most non healers/casters is that they don't see a huge increase in effectiveness with bonuses mana/health potions. The caster one is not good because most t6 casters are at the hit cap without too much issue with their gear already.
It would be much better if they changed the stats to be better allocated for all classes. Like, spell damage on caster one and some stamina on tanking one. Also make the equip effect work on all potions (haste, destruction, ironshield). So that it benefits people who don't chug mana potions.
Really excited about the healing one though. That and Memento of Tyrande will be best in game for healers. Same healing as Glimmering Naaru Sliver, and as much (or more) mp5. But, you don't have to find 8 seconds to channel the evocate effect.
Well maybe I missed the memo, but I can remember some outcry when they changed windfury in a way that disallowed having it enchanted on MH and OH at the same time using different ranks. Did that change?
Yet still, having a MS Debuff applied per autoattack by a fast swinging OH... I can´t believe this will make it live.
The change only made the MH and OH wf enchants share a cooldown. You still can still double the proc chance (actually, ^4 it... shamans are really confusing) by enchanting it on both hands. Refer to the class mechanics thread if you're really curious. MH WF and OH flametongue is still tolerable dps though, espcially with a fast OH; this is what you'll see alot of in PVP, if the PTR makes it to live.
If the effect of flametongue is to reduce healing done rather than healing taken (as indicated by the bug), it means that we have a new healing debuff that essentially stacks with mortal strike/wounding poison/aimed shot for a total of 25% healing reduction. In addition the healing reduction applies to everyone healed by healer, which is pretty nuts.
Seconding this. I understand that some of the ZA/Badge gear lacks Defense such that some tanks actually have to balance against uncrittability for once, but 54 Defense Rating is loving excessive. I acknowledge how giving a massive STA trinket (ala Darkmoon Cards) might have some unwanted PvP implications, but they could at least split it up over Dodge or something.
Not to mention, 40% greater effects on healing/mana potions isn't so hot considering how situational their use is. 40% more from a Super Healing Pot isn't going to save a tank, nor would a Paladin find it particularly useful to get 40% more from mana pots.
Well maybe I missed the memo, but I can remember some outcry when they changed windfury in a way that disallowed having it enchanted on MH and OH at the same time using different ranks. Did that change?
Yet still, having a MS Debuff applied per autoattack by a fast swinging OH... I can´t believe this will make it live.
Currently, Windfury Weapon has a 3 second internal cooldown, which means it cannot proc more than once every 3 seconds.
The outcry was that proccing WF on one hand would cause both hands to go into cooldown. If you had a fast-swinging offhand, it would "steal" WF procs from your mainhand, since it would proc more often due to the swing speed but then the cooldown would prevent the MH from proccing.
This is a bad thing because the OH suffers from the 50% damage penalty, so your WF procs end up being very anemic. I recall reading math stating that Malchazeen, a 1.60 speed dagger, was a DPS DOWNGRADE from a 2.60 speed green offhand from the AH, even if there was something on the order of a 40 DPS difference on their base damage.
To minimize this effect, Shaman prefer to use very slow OH weapons, ideally 2.60 ones that match their MH weapons. That way, only half your MH procs get "stolen", and even then, those "stolen" OH procs aren't so bad given the slow speed.
All that being said, from a purely DPS perspective, WF on both hands is better DPS than WF on the MH then FT (or Frostbrand) on the OH.
I don't think Stormstrike is normalized, is it?
Yes, it is. Ever since Hemorrhage was normalized, I don't think there are any more un-normalized instant attacks left.
Correcting myself: Windfury procs and Seal of Command procs are unnormalized. They weren't active abilities so it didn't quite occur to me at the time. Just another reason to use an Axe/Fist/Mace as on OH over the Dagger.
I would personally like to see the result on whether the effective dps is increased or decreased in a scenario where an Enhancement shaman with WF MH and FT OH auto attacks a target that's getting a constant heal spammed upon compared to an Enhancement shaman with WF on both MH and OH. Until that test is done no one can claim if this change is an increase or a decrease in shaman (specifically Enhancement) dps.
I'm not sure that's a very accurate test. Throwing out some arbitrary numbers:
If the WF/WF setup deals 700 DPS (no idea how accurate this is in a PvP setting), yet the healer does 800 HPS, the target will never die.
If the WF/FT setup deals 600 DPS, yet the healer's HPS is cut in half to 400, the target will die.
The WF/WF setup dealt more DPS, but did not result in a dead target. The WF/FT setup dealt less DPS, but would have been the only way to secure a kill.
How would you conclude as to which one is "better"?
If the effect of flametongue is to reduce healing done rather than healing taken (as indicated by the bug)
As indicated by the bug?
Unless I read incorrectly, the testing performed was having someone get hit by the FT debuff, then that someone healing himself, then it turned out that that someone was healing himself for double, indicating that FT is just like an MS effect, except it's bugged such that it's increasing healing received instead of decreasing.
So the new Alchemist Stone for healers looks to beat Memento of Tyrande
Not sure how to classify the dps-caster version: 54 spell hit equals 4% hit which is the highest for a single item.
Originally Posted by Endoscient
The main problem with the trinkets for most non healers/casters is that they don't see a huge increase in effectiveness with bonuses mana/health potions. The caster one is not good because most t6 casters are at the hit cap without too much issue with their gear already.
It would be much better if they changed the stats to be better allocated for all classes. Like, spell damage on caster one and some stamina on tanking one. Also make the equip effect work on all potions (haste, destruction, ironshield). So that it benefits people who don't chug mana potions.
Really excited about the healing one though. That and Memento of Tyrande will be best in game for healers. Same healing as Glimmering Naaru Sliver, and as much (or more) mp5. But, you don't have to find 8 seconds to channel the evocate effect.
My priority lies 100% on hit, meaning I gear the other slots around %hit. I could substitute a lot of %hit/dmg gear with haste/dmg or crit/dmg items. Seeing that this replaces me 2 hit/dmg items,..hmm. Will have to test that (once we get a working PTR in EU).
Won't be a permanent trinket, but a welcome situational one. Resist gear fights come to my mind where getting the required hit can sometimes rely on blue items (e.g. [Scryer's Bloodgem])
Last edited by shanice : 02/28/08 at 6:14 AM.
__ don't argue with an idiot. he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience __
I'm not sure that's a very accurate test. Throwing out some arbitrary numbers:
If the WF/WF setup deals 700 DPS (no idea how accurate this is in a PvP setting), yet the healer does 800 HPS, the target will never die.
If the WF/FT setup deals 600 DPS, yet the healer's HPS is cut in half to 400, the target will die.
The WF/WF setup dealt more DPS, but did not result in a dead target. The WF/FT setup dealt less DPS, but would have been the only way to secure a kill.
How would you conclude as to which one is "better"?
Assuming it is a MS-like debuff as opposed to what panny said, then this change effectively give shamans (specifically Enhancement spec) a big effectivity boost. Now they can change their OH enchant accordingly in arenas (I am assuming here that you CAN change enchants, I personally don't play a shaman, but from what I read on Thottbot and Wowwiki the cast is instant and obviously a macro can be set up to switch the OH enchant). In 2v2 for example, against 2 dps? use WF on both MH and OH, against healer dps? WF MH and FT OH.
If what I assumed were true then I can safely say there's definitely no decrease in shaman dps and against healer-dps combinations it's an increase.
The caster trinket isn't situational, it's downright pointless. There's no possible way to use 54 spell hit in tier 6 & 7 gear - it's simply too much, and put's you well over the hit cap. Combine that with DPS casters wanting to use destruction pots over mana pots anyway, and I don't see why anyone would use this. Fundamentally, the fact remains that most classes don't use healing or mana potions, so having the major effect on the trinket be a boost to those means the trinket is wasted outside of healers. The only caster class that does make regular use of mana potions (Arcane specced mages) doesn't ever need 54 spell hit thanks to the 10% to hit talent.
Warlocks.
We pot as often as anyone on a progression raid and more than others on a non-progression, and I can fit in a 54 spell hit trinket in T6/7 gear without any talents to give me +hit because the sunwell gear is so light on hit. The +40% passive is worth ~13 dps when you chain mana pots.
Even so, the trinket should be designed more generically so it's generally attractive. I'm not sure that's even good for locks (too late to actually consider the numbers.)
Assuming it is a MS-like debuff as opposed to what panny said, then this change effectively give shamans (specifically Enhancement spec) a big effectivity boost. Now they can change their OH enchant accordingly in arenas (I am assuming here that you CAN change enchants, I personally don't play a shaman, but from what I read on Thottbot and Wowwiki the cast is instant and obviously a macro can be set up to switch the OH enchant). In 2v2 for example, against 2 dps? use WF on both MH and OH, against healer dps? WF MH and FT OH.
If you put it that way, then yes that's a very reasonable way of approaching things.
You're correct in that casting weapon enchants are instant, although I've never tried having to cast them while dual-wielding (much less in the heat of battle). In any case, I agree that it would be very viable to simply switch the OH to FT once you see a healer.
I can see clearly now, the rain has gone Thanks for clearing me up on Windfury.
Regarding the Alchemytrinkets:
I will definately consider picking that things up with my alchemyalt. Wont it benefit Pallytanks and/or Warlocks especially? In conjunction with Mad Alchemist Potions that would be some quite nice bonus.
Granted, a Pally in a Raid will be "spammed to death" with heals, so Spiritual Attunement will do all the mana he needs, but while farming etc...
Warlocks in a raid however get double the worth out of a MAP by lifetapping. Adding another 40% to each hp and mana would put one MAP to quite a nice boost. Currently the downside are useless stats on the stone, the spellhit can however open points from talents and/or better gear with less need for spellhit.
A very welcome buff to enhancement shamans pvp. Actually pretty decent in terms of "pve vs. pvp" changes and a nice example of how things can be achieved without affecting the other side.
Anyways I am quite certain that the FT weapon enchant will get retuned seeing the high frequency of hits flying out of a dual wield shaman. My best guess would be from 5 to 7-10 secs and an inner/hidden CD on it.
__ don't argue with an idiot. he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience __
You're correct in that casting weapon enchants are instant, although I've never tried having to cast them while dual-wielding (much less in the heat of battle). In any case, I agree that it would be very viable to simply switch the OH to FT once you see a healer.
The first weapon buff you cast goes to the mainhand, the next goes to the offhand. It seems you can't directly overwrite offhand enchants without removing them first, though I could be wrong. The simplest way to do it would be to cast WF while the preparation buff is up, head into the arena and then cast either WF or FT depending on what was found.
Does the new FT still deal damage, or has the MS effect replaced the proc? And I presume this is for max rank only? Seems pretty hilarious to get an MS debuff at level ten...
With this in mind, am i the only one thinking that there are other profession, non-gathering, that needs some love?
When u compare the new alchemist stone to the Jewelcrafter only gems, or the ring enchant for enchanter, doesn,t it look pale in comparison ?
With the unbinding of Primal Nethers I am more inclined to support expansion of production tradeskills by freeing more their BOP items or skill requirement to even use items, namely engineering for the later. I am all for profession centric epic items but the blues/greens should never occur as BOP.
Unless I read incorrectly, the testing performed was having someone get hit by the FT debuff, then that someone healing himself, then it turned out that that someone was healing himself for double, indicating that FT is just like an MS effect, except it's bugged such that it's increasing healing received instead of decreasing.
My assumption is due to the fact that the healing debuff has been applied to aimed shot without this issue (and the phrasing too). The example combatlog would be consistant with the debuff working both ways.
As far as I understand, we have two possible variants of how FT weapon works:
V1 Reduces healing done by 50%
V2 Reduces healing received by 50%
Currently the implementation bugged, and according to experiments its effect can be one of those:
B1 Increases healing done by 100%
B2 Increases healing received by 100%
How about getting a FT debuff and trying to heal someone except yourself? (can't do it by myself, since I'm at work, but I still wonder)
It will allow us to distinguish between B1 and B2, and this will allow us to predict intended behavior (its quite probable that B1 is malfunctioned V1, and B2 relates to V2).
There are two things really odd about this flame tongue change.
1) It has no cooldown. They can tab and hit 4 different players with a fast offhand and apply the debuff to multiple enemies. This is something nobody else can do: Mortal Strike has a 6 second cooldown, Aimed Shot has a 6 second cooldown and a casting time, Wound Poison needs to be stacked.
2) It is usable by any shaman, not just enhancement. If a resto/elemental shaman is close enough to someone they can just tag them with their weapon and apply a 50% healing debuff, they don't even have to waste a gcd.
Personally I think it needs to be more like Wound Poison, 10% healing debuff, stacks 5 times, 5 second duration. So that they need to focus a target to build a stack, also it lets other teams counter it by crowd controlling the shaman to make the stack fall off.
New lifetap rank 3: 20% max health for 20% max mana.
Rank 1 and 2 are 5%/5% and 12/12% respectively.
This brings back all the concerns on stamina scaling negatively but I'm hoping we haven't seen the last of lifetap changes.
2) It is usable by any shaman, not just enhancement. If a resto/elemental shaman is close enough to someone they can just tag them with their weapon and apply a 50% healing debuff, they don't even have to waste a gcd.
This is just like the "Holy Paladins can apply judgements too" party line, and frankly it's just as unfeasible.
Given how vulnerable a Resto Shaman is to getting locked down, it's very unlikely he's going to risk popping his head into LOS to apply this one debuff.
Given how vulnerable an Ele Shaman is to lockdown AND pushback, it's very unlikely he's going to risk going into melee range.
Furthermore, it's a 4 second debuff. You'd have to meleeing for a significant amount of time or be extremely coordinated with your focusing to get any usefulness out of it.
There are two things really odd about this flame tongue change.
1) It has no cooldown. They can tab and hit 4 different players with a fast offhand and apply the debuff to multiple enemies. This is something nobody else can do: Mortal Strike has a 6 second cooldown, Aimed Shot has a 6 second cooldown and a casting time, Wound Poison needs to be stacked.
2) It is usable by any shaman, not just enhancement. If a resto/elemental shaman is close enough to someone they can just tag them with their weapon and apply a 50% healing debuff, they don't even have to waste a gcd.
Personally I think it needs to be more like Wound Poison, 10% healing debuff, stacks 5 times, 5 second duration. So that they need to focus a target to build a stack, also it lets other teams counter it by crowd controlling the shaman to make the stack fall off.
If it has a 4 second duration, it's going to make it hard to apply to multiple people. With white miss rates the way they are while dual wielding, it's quite probablE the debuff will fall off anyway.
My examples might not be practical in most situations but I still think they should not be possible at all. How long would a shaman take on average to build a 5-stack with the current DW miss rates in pvp gear? If it's less than 10 seconds I it still would be a reasonable change.
My point is that it needs to have more counters / drawbacks than how it currently is.
I agree that the tank trinket is still undwhelming due to the fact that health potions don't scale with the content. 54 Def Rating is nice for getting critimmun on resist fights. But since there are enough ways to gain immunity from crit even in a resist suit this doesn't justify using the trinket. If they were to add Ironshields to the potions that are enhanced, it would be a completely different matter though :P
Speaking of Ironshields, I'm disappointed that we still don't see an injector for those ones. I always carry 20+ Ironshields around when raiding, more when we are on progress raids and well, I have a severe shortage of bagspace when raiding.
The caster trinket isn't situational, it's downright pointless. There's no possible way to use 54 spell hit in tier 6 & 7 gear - it's simply too much, and put's you well over the hit cap.
Are you sure? Looking at the SW caster loot it seems to be very low on hit.
02/28/08, 5:07 AM
Thanks for clearing me up on Windfury.
Similar Threads
