Is this REALLY what we want to see??? How un-rewarding is it to kill a boss and have to hand out the equivalent of epic food stamps to people. Why do we want to see everything broken down to the most basic level. Not only does this go against the basics of RPG's (bosses drop LOOT... not Chuck E Cheese tickets), but it will only lead to more uniformity between players and faster abandonment of instances. Teir tokens is enough.
Loot drops at the exact same rate. Essentially, you'd be reducing the number of items that get sharded. Can you seriously be considering this a bad thing?
New patch propped up to the PTR, and it's a big one (86 MB) since they added all the zone music for the Sunwell (73 MB, or 84% of the filesize). I checked the spell file and there didn't seem to be anything notable added.
Priest
Mass dispell now affects a maximum of 10 friendly targets and 10 enemy targets.
Shaman
Changes to Flametongue (both Weapon and Totem) have been reverted. The healing reduction debuff has been removed.
Warlock
Changes to Life Tap have been reverted. Values are back to normal.
Rank 1 - Converts 20 health into 20 mana.
Rank 2 - Converts 65 health into 65 mana.
Rank 3 - Converts 130 health into 130 mana.
Rank 4 - Converts 210 health into 210 mana.
Rank 5 - Converts 300 health into 300 mana.
Rank 6 - Converts 420 health into 420 mana.
Rank 7 - Converts 580 health into 580 mana.
From MMO-Champion. Good that they revered FT debuff from Shamans, not what we needed. WTB more mobility please!
From MMO-Champion. Good that they revered FT debuff from Shamans, not what we needed. WTB more mobility please!
I don't know if it's just me but Blizzard seems to be pulling up these major class changes out of their asses instead of listening to the massive threads THEY STARTED asking for class feedback.
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras] is a great example of "offset" armor that you're not going to be sharding for a long time... but can you instantly name another similar piece of armor?
Pretty sure the neck from supremus, cloak from gorefiend as well as countless caster healing and dps offpeices that are either being fought over weekly (even till now, yes) or just now becoming saturated.
The thing about tier tokens is that it takes away from the random factor if everyone can just pick up the peice of gear they want, you'd essentially count the weeks and know when you have your perfect gear setup. I'm pretty sure Blizz doesnt want that. By the same token, waiting months for an item to drop for the first time is amazingly dumb in my book. Yes, it keeps players coming back, but it also keeps players agitated.
Was the Naxx way that bad? You'd see a drop and have to add items to it so that it became the item. Seems like you could drop a "token" still that would fit several class needs and you would add differing items (both trash and boss drop possibly) to make the item. It wouldnt really solve the need for Blizz to make drops random, but it wouldnt give as quick a fix as just giving 1 token that any player can then turn into anything they want or some system like that. Granted, you are still waiting on a drop that is probably going to be random: Sun motes for example, would be required + primal fire for the mage-fire peice while sun motes + primal shadow for the rogue or warlock peice from that same token. Now, one might say, "That's just like now, you are waiting for weeks to see a trash item drop that may or may not get picked up by you and yada, yada, yada." The difference is, before you're even seeing bosses you'd be aquiring the items and even once on farm, the items could be aquired, giving a more long term gratification with the knowing that you're still closer to your item than just in a blank period waiting for the it to drop.
Maybe this doesnt really solve anything in the end, I just think that waiting on a drop that's random is pointless. As most of us have seen, even random can mean short-term patterns, and in the scheme of random (infinity) short-term can be the last 9 months and the pattern can be crappy drop A for Guild X. Allowing the computer to be more evolving, that is to say, if you item A has dropped the last two weeks, lower its drop % by x amount and raise the other items in its grouping by that amount, split equally over them. Continually doing that would keep all the items at a relatively high margin and possible have a progressive % system that if the item has dropped two times in a row or 2 out of 3 weeks, take double or tripple the % drop away, again adding to the other equally.
Again, just an idea, possibly futile, but thoughts?
The thing about tier tokens is that it takes away from the random factor if everyone can just pick up the peice of gear they want, you'd essentially count the weeks and know when you have your perfect gear setup.
Why do you assume that a token system implies getting loot immediately? If "off-set" tokens could potentially split into four actual items, then there would still be some degree of randomness, while still mitigating the potential for useless loot and also giving Blizzard more flexibility to spread items around (i.e. a token for "tanking ring" with different stats for druid, paladin, and warrior tanks).
Maybe there's just some confusion about tokens. A token implies some level of transmutation from one item into multiple, limited possibilities, not a Badge of Justice-style "turn in for whatever you want" situation.
I guess I see the problem as having a token drop for "misc" loot and lets say you have 2 drop (since a lot of bosses drop 2 pieces of general/offset loot), then people would just be able to count how many people want an item from there, divide by 2 and know pretty sure when they'd get theirs. Of course dkp totals/Loot Council would mess with that, but beyond blizz's control. You'd have no one picking up those boomkin items until the whole raid has their item. That, to me at least, takes away from the random.
Now, if you took the token and made it "Token-Neck peices" from Boss A, then that would add some more randomness and you'd have inter-class battles over necks (similar to Kael/Mag items) which may be exactly what you wanted (I'd agree, seems like a better idea to me).
Tokens, as they are now, are turned in for a peice, no transmutation as you call it, in the exact same way as a Badge of Justice is turned in sets for an item. The only difference is we know which bosses drop Badges and how many/how often, but don't always know which tokens will drop from a certain boss. They are still almost the exact same thing, since, there is 0 randomeness in the token->item transformation. You don't turn it in like the Ogri'la cloak peices and get a crappy blue that only a ret pally would wear, you get the EXACT peice you turned it in for. The randomness isnt' inherently in the token, it's in the RNG Token drop from the boss. Two different things.
Pretty sure the neck from supremus, cloak from gorefiend as well as countless caster healing and dps offpeices that are either being fought over weekly (even till now, yes) or just now becoming saturated.
I was talking about armor specifically (ie: Cloth, Leather, Mail or Plate) and you pretty much proved my point for me. (The reason I am interested in talking about these pieces is because they are restricted to certain classes and suboptimal for other classes so tokenizing them is inherently better.)
I'm only suggesting the tokenization of these drops, not of weapons/jewelry/trinkets/offhand frills/ranged items. Generally speaking, a mage could get just as much use from a "boomkin" offhand as the boomkin, while the same is not true for "boomkin" leather boots. Similarly, the [Choker of Endless Nightmares] that you mention is inherently good for all physical DPS players while the same cannot be said about [Tome of the Lightbringer].
My answer to this problem has and always will be, fleshing out guilds as entities. Rather than drop heroic badges (or in addition), raid bosses would drop some sort of currency for the guild as a whole to use to buy raid items. The same shit that drops off the bosses. That way you can fill in (at a low rate) the items that you NEVER see drop, like Brutalizers, Bulwarks, other weapons... we've never seen archi's caster sword for instance. Obviously the warglaives would not be available. The ideal system would be very similar to honor points. Each boss has a currency value associated with it, and each item has the same, a value associated with it. Roughly 20-30 boss kills (depending on which ones are killed) buys your main tank that Brutalizer or Unbreakable Will that just won't drop. One of the top first Illidan killers' tanks using a Nightbane shield comes to mind.
I'm not at all worried about any sort of "reality" disconnect involved with a vendor standing around holding every MH/BT drop in exchange for magical raid currency. The serious raid community would be the ones benefiting from this system, and I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't care about the disconnect either. Personally, I raid for the fun of it. I love the encounters, and the atmosphere. Random drops are fun, I just wish that we could, only occasionally, bring the guild's theoretical capital together and buy a member the item he needs to do his job the best, because it just won't fucking drop from the random loot tables.
*edit* In fact, all of this could be included in the guild bank interface.
Pretty sure the neck from supremus, cloak from gorefiend as well as countless caster healing and dps offpeices that are either being fought over weekly (even till now, yes) or just now becoming saturated.
The thing about tier tokens is that it takes away from the random factor if everyone can just pick up the peice of gear they want, you'd essentially count the weeks and know when you have your perfect gear setup. I'm pretty sure Blizz doesnt want that. By the same token, waiting months for an item to drop for the first time is amazingly dumb in my book. Yes, it keeps players coming back, but it also keeps players agitated.
Was the Naxx way that bad? You'd see a drop and have to add items to it so that it became the item. Seems like you could drop a "token" still that would fit several class needs and you would add differing items (both trash and boss drop possibly) to make the item. It wouldnt really solve the need for Blizz to make drops random, but it wouldnt give as quick a fix as just giving 1 token that any player can then turn into anything they want or some system like that. Granted, you are still waiting on a drop that is probably going to be random: Sun motes for example, would be required + primal fire for the mage-fire peice while sun motes + primal shadow for the rogue or warlock peice from that same token. Now, one might say, "That's just like now, you are waiting for weeks to see a trash item drop that may or may not get picked up by you and yada, yada, yada." The difference is, before you're even seeing bosses you'd be aquiring the items and even once on farm, the items could be aquired, giving a more long term gratification with the knowing that you're still closer to your item than just in a blank period waiting for the it to drop.
Maybe this doesnt really solve anything in the end, I just think that waiting on a drop that's random is pointless. As most of us have seen, even random can mean short-term patterns, and in the scheme of random (infinity) short-term can be the last 9 months and the pattern can be crappy drop A for Guild X. Allowing the computer to be more evolving, that is to say, if you item A has dropped the last two weeks, lower its drop % by x amount and raise the other items in its grouping by that amount, split equally over them. Continually doing that would keep all the items at a relatively high margin and possible have a progressive % system that if the item has dropped two times in a row or 2 out of 3 weeks, take double or tripple the % drop away, again adding to the other equally.
Again, just an idea, possibly futile, but thoughts?
I'd really like this kind of system, but only if the loot tables would be cleaned up and it would be implemented in conjunction with the "sunmote" exchange system.
I mean after farming BT/HY for quite some time, we come out from a full t6 clear with maybe 1-5 items at best.
Most is sharded or going to offspec's.
Hell I'm so bored that I even started picking up healing gear just for the laughs I'd get standing around in Orgrimmar.
It's really frustrating that the current RNG system can really screw you over. Over a "short" period of time (8 months) of farming Teron we've gotten one melee cloak.
For me I wouldn't say I get excited when we kill teron: "Is he going to drop the cloak?", it's more like "Yeah, 10g that we get shards as usual!?". I'd trade it away for a tradeable tokenbased lootsystem any day.
Ideally I'd like a "circle" in loot like:
Cloth Item A<->Leather Item B<->Mail Item C<->Plate Item D<->Cloth Item B<->Leather Item C<->Mail Item D<->Plate Item E...etc. Eventually making a circle at Plate Item X<->Cloth Item A.
With each "transmute" costing a hefty fee of "sunmotes" or whatnot. Perhaps even add a cooldown to "transmuting" between every 2-3 items.
This would mean that eventually if you have all the other items you can just transmute your way to a certain item, at a "cost".
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
The specialised [Item not found!] patterns are vendored, Shattered Sun exalted.
Their stats are changed to +63 dmg/heal, or +108 AP. The +54 def and the +119 heal ones are unchanged.
Edit:
Sunwell Plateau open again!
An NPC inside explains how to kill the Sentinels (kill scouts that want to reactivate them). Casuals rejoice!
Repair/reagent vendor inside at the entrance is still gone.
Kalegcos and his trash is gone, first mob is the Protector robot behind him.
Also, S3 cloth belt/bracers/boots got +70 armour added each. At the cost of -2 spell crit for the Silk pieces, and -2int/-3sta/-2int on Dreadweave/Mooncloth.
The specialised [Item not found!] patterns are vendored, Shattered Sun exalted.
Their stats are changed to +63 dmg/heal, or +108 AP. The +54 def and the +119 heal ones are unchanged.
108 Attack Power? Still kinda meh, but much better than it was. Situational at best now instead of completely worthless.
Downloaded the latest patch and logged on after the install. Despite that I have never seem so much of the Isle (cos there is actually no1 online on the EU PTR) the LT changes are all reverted. You have to visit the trainer however to get the missing ranks.
SWP is back up. Kalegcos ain't there at all, but the trash right after him. Can't check if Brut/Felm are reactivated.
Last edited by shanice : 03/05/08 at 7:25 PM.
__ don't argue with an idiot. he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience __
The specialised [Item not found!] patterns are vendored, Shattered Sun exalted.
Their stats are changed to +63 dmg/heal, or +108 AP. The +54 def and the +119 heal ones are unchanged.
Good for dps that they get something somewhat good...now, about that tanking trinket...
From mmo-champion: Jewelcrafting gets a recipe to convert 3 of each type of green quality gem into "Brilliant Glass" (a blue quality item). It's unknown whether Brilliant Glass is a gem in its own right, a reagent, or what. Could a jewelcrafter on the PTRs please check this out? The flavour text on Brilliant Glass is "There's something shiny inside", so it looks likely that this is a transmute to convert green quality gems into blue quality gems.
The other thing people forget about tokenized loot; the days of being able to actually equip an item and see a benefit are long gone, you will need to enchant and gem almost every item you receive in PvE raiding now for it even to be remotely an upgrade (as the leaps are so small/insignificant).
So wether it's tokenized or not, it's still resulting in a delay in the use of said item (the majority of the time)...
Regarding the bosses not dropping "You Win!" tickets; Naxxramas and AQ kept the feeling of the token somewhat real and consistant with the vibe of the zone.
TBC tokens fall short here because you have vendors (the worst way of doing this IMO..) sitting there with the items on it and the majority of them are in a random town making them really feel like an alienated ticket turn-in, atleast the quest/material route gave the illusion of atleast crafting the shiney epic.
Badge items fit this well because they really are ment to be a ticket system, and hopefully as our previous complaint ("We need to account share to hold all these raid specific items for crafting/using in the instance...") should be solved with the Guild Bank feature they might return to the better style in WoTLK.
From mmo-champion: Jewelcrafting gets a recipe to convert 3 of each type of green quality gem into "Brilliant Glass" (a blue quality item). It's unknown whether Brilliant Glass is a gem in its own right, a reagent, or what. Could a jewelcrafter on the PTRs please check this out? The flavour text on Brilliant Glass is "There's something shiny inside", so it looks likely that this is a transmute to convert green quality gems into blue quality gems.
I'm crossing my fingers it is then given to an Alchemist to be changed into a gem or something.
ps: The new alch stone is pretty awesome. I'm sure most people would prefer a mix of different stats, but +dmg is much more useful than like +4% hit.
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Addons aren't a crutch, they're tools to be abused by skilled players to increase performance. Like a carpenter using a hammer, a fisherman using a lure, or Xi using curse words.
Not sure if this was in a previous build or not (I haven't been keeping too, too current) but there's a new chat options GUI. Makes configuring your chat and combat logs much, much, much easier than using the dropdown menus.
If there's something shiny inside as the text suggests, logically it would be up to a jewelcrafter to cut it out rather than an alchemist transmute which is changing one material into something completely different.
Regarding Brilliant Glass, it can be trained from the JC trainer, didn't check how much skill was needed but it's still green at 375. Made three of them and in each one I got one blue gem.
03/05/08, 5:51 PM
Similar Threads
