Perhaps a random blog on GameRiot isn't the best source of information--but this guy is showing screenshots of Shiv being dodged and parried on the PTR:
My web browsers at work seem incapable of loading GameRiot comments for some reason, so if any comments counter the blog's assertion I can't tell at this time.
This is what I mean exactly, 4T6 is an insane bonus for Destro locks. Now compare that to 4T6 of DPS Warrior T6, we get 5% more damage on mortal strike/blood thirst.
While in both cases (Lock & Warrior) the bonus applies to the main focus of the rotation (destro locks being focused primarly on Sbolt, and MS/Fury warriors alike prioritising BT/MS over any other instant/on next swing/casted attack), they affect the gain in dps from the setbonus differently.
I don't exactly know the casting time of Sbolt, but I'm fairly certain that you should be able to get off 2 Sbolts during the cooldown on Mortal Strike (6 secs).
What I'm wondering is how blizzard came up with the set bonuses. For example, in my opinion the 4T6 for DPS Warriors would be better suited to be something like "Increases the damage done by Slam/Heroic Strike by 5%". Which would bring it much more in line to other classes setbonuses.
Either Blizzard simply doesn't really look into the spellrotations used by classes, and thus just picks a random spell and makes the set bonus apply to that. Or they do try to line the setbonuses up to the rotation, but manage to completely fail to give the setbonus any meaning for some classes.
Argueing about set boni being worse than others is moot. Some of them are horrible, some of them are mediocre and the others are insanely good. This has always been the case.
I don't get the whole idea though. In the beginning of TBC Blizzard pretty much kept to the "not awesome"-setboni (like you had on some sets in Naxx, 4t3 for both hunters and warriors was pretty good if i recall) and held it for most of T4-5 sets. You had some of them that stood out, such as 4 piece Shaman/Paladin, but those were exceptions and got nerfed later. But then you look at T6 and you get such incredible boni like the Warlock ones. I don't get it.
I don't exactly know the casting time of Sbolt, but I'm fairly certain that you should be able to get off 2 Sbolts during the cooldown on Mortal Strike (6 secs).
For what it's worth, this is irrelevant. The relevant part is how much of your total damage stems from the improved ability. For a destruction lock that approaches 100%, which is what makes the bonus ridiculously good (since it translates to ~6% total dps increase).
Perhaps a random blog on GameRiot isn't the best source of information--but this guy is showing screenshots of Shiv being dodged and parried on the PTR:
My web browsers at work seem incapable of loading GameRiot comments for some reason, so if any comments counter the blog's assertion I can't tell at this time.
The comments do seem to indicate Shiv can be dodged now.
I don't think Blizzard just haphazardly chooses set bonuses, but I think at times the game evolves in way they didn't foresee. The scaling of destro locks at T6 levels of gear is a prime example of this, I believe.
The comments do seem to indicate Shiv can be dodged now.
I don't think Blizzard just haphazardly chooses set bonuses, but I think at times the game evolves in way they didn't foresee. The scaling of destro locks at T6 levels gear is a prime example of this, I believe.
I've spoken with the devs and shiv not being missed or dodged is a bug and was never intended. The changes to the combat log revealed some problems with how this spell is coded and it is being worked on.
The comments do seem to indicate Shiv can be dodged now.
I don't think Blizzard just haphazardly chooses set bonuses, but I think at times the game evolves in way they didn't foresee. The scaling of destro locks at T6 levels gear is a prime example of this, I believe.
Honestly, for a company of their caliber, they should be testing gear scaling. It's one of the easiest sorts of things to have a test team do, compared to some of their other more complex (and more tedious) roles.
I'm pretty stunned at that post by Hortus. I had just assumed that Shiv being undodgeable and unparryable was an intended mechanic. It's not an insignificant 'bug fix' from a balance standpoint in PvP. For example, a warrior with full tanking gear on can no longer be damaged as easily by Shiv'ing Deadly Poison--I remember reading a blog by Ming some time ago about this being far and away the best method for killing a warrior in tank gear.
The result of this change will be moderately small, I suppose. 10-15% chance for Shiv to not apply Crippling Poison (because of parry/dodge) will change some arena games, I'm sure, but it's nothing people can really complain about. The main effect of this fix, I imagine, is that a Rogue cannot as easily 'control' another Rogue with Evasion up or a Hunter with Deterrance up.
For what it's worth, this is irrelevant. The relevant part is how much of your total damage stems from the improved ability. For a destruction lock that approaches 100%, which is what makes the bonus ridiculously good (since it translates to ~6% total dps increase).
5.1% if you're using CoD. Who knows which destruction locks are balanced around.
Heck, if you look at the design of the destruction tree, you'd assume the set bonus is balanced around casting immolate -- indeed, I bet it was designed assuming we were casting corruption as well.
My guess has always been that the only reason that set bonus is so good is that the destruction tree is not being used how it was designed (due to last minute changes to address 'zomg dots OP in pvp!' issues before TBC's launch but after 2.0.) Given that the set bonuses for warlocks are generally only useful to one tree, however, and that tree changes with each tier, it was nice to at least have one good one at any rate.
Regarding 2.4, does anybody know the reputation gained from killing trash mobs in Hyjal? I heard it was going to be increased, but have not heard exact numbers.
I'm pretty stunned at that post by Hortus. I had just assumed that Shiv being undodgeable and unparryable was an intended mechanic. It's not an insignificant 'bug fix' from a balance standpoint in PvP. For example, a warrior with full tanking gear on can no longer be damaged as easily by Shiv'ing Deadly Poison--I remember reading a blog by Ming some time ago about this being far and away the best method for killing a warrior in tank gear.
The result of this change will be moderately small, I suppose. 10-15% chance for Shiv to not apply Crippling Poison (because of parry/dodge) will change some arena games, I'm sure, but it's nothing people can really complain about. The main effect of this fix, I imagine, is that a Rogue cannot as easily 'control' another Rogue with Evasion up or a Hunter with Deterrance up.
Combined with abilities like abolish poison already raping our poisons in mere seconds it will become even harder to keep people close in certain games or even keep any poisons applied at all. And again it will mainly be a buff to classes we already struggle against in arenas (hunters, Warriors) instead of the classes that actually need a bit more defense versus melee. I have never seen any real complaints about shiv working like that or ever considered it being overpowered. For the high energy cost, even with a 1.5 speed offhand its still 35 energy, I always assumed this was intended.
Combined with abilities like abolish poison already raping our poisons in mere seconds it will become even harder to keep people close in certain games or even keep any poisons applied at all. And again it will mainly be a buff to classes we already struggle against in arenas (hunters, Warriors) instead of the classes that actually need a bit more defense versus melee. I have never seen any real complaints about shiv working like that or ever considered it being overpowered. For the high energy cost, even with a 1.5 speed offhand its still 35 energy, I always assumed this was intended.
I'm not exactly sure how it will be a buff to warriors vs rogues in arenas seeing how warriors generally have less than 10% dodge in arena gear and if they are in tank gear... well let's just say that it's unlikely that they'll be doing much. If anything I'd say it's a buff to hunters (specially under deterrance) and other rogues (evasion), possibly feral druids since they run with 30ish% dodge normally.
Casters will be mostly unaffected overall like you said.
Regardless, poisons could use a slightly higher dispell resistance versus abolish poison, mostly due to abolish being a fire and forget and unlike the other automated poison removal method (Poison Cleansing Totem), it acts much faster (2 seconds vs 5 seconds) and is easier to reapply in an arena scenario.
Personally, I believe that eventually we'll see some abilities and items will have different functionality in PVE and PVP or won't work in arenas at all; an example would be if there was a trinket that made your next melee crit provide you with 50% of the crit's damage as a damage shield, it would be very handy in PVE on some fights (RoS P2/P3 for example) while being utterly overpowered in PVP.
It's just that this "Let's create things for both gameplay aspects" ideal ends up watering down the game into simply "More Crit/AP/Damage" in many cases.
Last edited by Sajukar : 03/15/08 at 10:58 AM.
Reason: Grammar.
Regardless, poisons could use a slightly higher dispell resistance versus abolish poison, mostly due to abolish being a fire and forget and unlike the other automated poison removal method (Poison Cleansing Totem), it acts much faster (2 seconds vs 5 seconds) and is easier to reapply in an arena scenario.
The PvP counter to poisons is Abolish Poison, just like the PvP counter to Travel Form spam is JoJ and the counter to Divine Shield is Mass Dispel. Rogues fighting a druid are at a serious disadvantage in this regard, just like druids are at a disadvantage against JoJ, paladins are at a disadvantage against priests, priests are at a disadvantage against certain shaman aspects (Purge), etc.
According to Kalgan's statistics, rogues share the same power brackets (2v2, 3v3) with druids and possible under-representation (5v5) with druids as well. So circumstantially they may see druids more often than other classes in arenas. However, Blizzard is probably going to stick with their everything-has-a-counter mentality regardless.
The PvP counter to poisons is Abolish Poison, just like the PvP counter to Travel Form spam is JoJ and the counter to Divine Shield is Mass Dispel. Rogues fighting a druid are at a serious disadvantage in this regard, just like druids are at a disadvantage against JoJ, paladins are at a disadvantage against priests, priests are at a disadvantage against certain shaman aspects (Purge), etc.
According to Kalgan's statistics, rogues share the same power brackets (2v2, 3v3) with druids and possible under-representation (5v5) with druids as well. So circumstantially they may see druids more often than other classes in arenas. However, Blizzard is probably going to stick with their everything-has-a-counter mentality regardless.
However, with poisons, the counter is more then just one class. Paladins, Druids and Shamans all have different ways to remove poisons. With druids, the only counter in the game to travel form is JoJ. Trinket removes JoJ as far as I know (maybe a change that will be reverted in light of Druid supremacy).
Divine shield has a 5minute cooldown, and therefore is often only used once per fight, and sometimes it wins the fight and sometimes it doesn't. But its 12second duration and huge cooldown mean that it is not the be all end all to small scale arena. Travel form has no cooldown, and only 1/9 classes actually has a counter to it. Add on the fact that the class with the counter is only of the least represented in the brackets where travel form is strong and you have a gross inbalance.
The best solution is to simply give the weaker/less represented classes counters to the strongest/most represented classes. Many druid abilities simply can't be countered. You can't dispell bear form nor can you mana drain a bear, you can't dispell travel form, and you can't interrupt instant cast hots, and dispelling said hots causes the target to be healed.
So things that I would expect is classes would get anti hot abilities, more anti shapeshifting abilities. One example that kills two birds with one stone is "Intelligence Leak: Increases the mana cost of all instant cast abilities by 200%" A druid would run low on mana pretty fast constantly shifting/lifeblooming around a pillar.
So things that I would expect is classes would get anti hot abilities, more anti shapeshifting abilities. One example that kills two birds with one stone is "Intelligence Leak: Increases the mana cost of all instant cast abilities by 200%" A druid would run low on mana pretty fast constantly shifting/lifeblooming around a pillar.
The problem with that suggestion is that it would kill feral druid PvP more than it already is and hurt feral more than resto. Thats the hard part for Blizzard as they need to try to balance the game without completely ruining another aspect of the class that may not be 'overpowered'.
The problem with that suggestion is that it would kill feral druid PvP more than it already is and hurt feral more than resto. Thats the hard part for Blizzard as they need to try to balance the game without completely ruining another aspect of the class that may not be 'overpowered'.
Given the current changes coming in, I'm pretty sure they have no problem with doing that.
And the rest of you are probably making a bigger issue out of shiv against resto druids than it is. You can't dodge from behind, and they're not going to get very far backing up if they're trying to get away from you. This is just a minor buff to melee classes so they actually use whatever avoidance they happen to get on their gear.
EDIT: You're right, it's just another of the feral model problems. Bears can dodge attacks from behind if the attacker is within the bear's model. That's how I solo tank Moroes whenever I go back to Kara.
Well, the Essence of Immortals quest was removed, and all T5/6 bosses will drop 3 pieces of class armor. Magtheridon will now drop a 20-slot bag and a bag of gems.
Was there another change to the random items, like a minimum of 3 items per boss, or am I losing my mind? I seem to recall that in reference to T5, but was wondering if it was also going to apply to T6. Are there any other loot changes?
BTW: Where can I find that Huge painting of Kil'jaeden on the MT's wall?
What IRL art is that (very awesome) painting based off? Im sure ive seen similar theme before. Actually, wasnt there a similar painting in the Ghostbusters film?
I would assume this means that patch 2.4 is basically complete, and the only thing left is to polish up the new Tournament servers before patch release? Here's to hoping we get a release this week or next!
I assume it means they want to force people milling around on the PTR to go to the TTR instead for additional stress-testing.
They still haven't adequately tested the changes in AV. Every time I've queued, it has taken 30+ minutes to get a game where we have less than 25 people on each side. Probably the only way they'll rectify that is to open premades.
I assume it means they want to force people milling around on the PTR to go to the TTR instead for additional stress-testing.
They still haven't adequately tested the changes in AV. Every time I've queued, it has taken 30+ minutes to get a game where we have less than 25 people on each side. Probably the only way they'll rectify that is to open premades.
03/14/08, 5:36 PM
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