2.4 PTR and Patch Notes - Page 175

Nezralix · 03/24/08, 8:09 PM

Let's not try to pretend that mana regeneration models are any more sound for one class than for another. Blizzard has yet to arrive at a sensible model for anyone except potentially warlocks (and all of them tend to benefit too strongly from mana potion chugging and shadow priests). Hunters may be worse off than warlocks, but it doesn't mean that warlocks are "fixed". It's pointless to argue that hunter gear is somehow more diluted than other casters, because it's negligibly true (if at all), and certainly doesn't compare to the issues that Ret paladins had/have with spell damage / spell hit / INT as compared to warriors or rogues.

The elephant in the room is that all DPS classes desire a fairly static baseline DPS rotation, which obviously consumes a static rate of mana expenditure, while Blizzard seems intent on basing mana regeneration on gear quality and group/raid synergies. It makes some sense for healers, but none for mana-using DPS classes. With that model in place, it's never going to really be consistent. All you can hope for is something that minimizes your classes' issues without being too much of a burden on your stat pool.

panny · 03/24/08, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by Daenerys

I'd rather they just address the issue with Hunter mana by giving us a reason to want Int on our gear. We are extremely reliant on our mana to do DPS, yet we have mana pools half the size of the other casters. The problem is that we require gear to have THREE base stats on it to be effective (Stam, Agi, Int), whereas the other offensive casters only require Stam and Int. In order to remain competitive, we are forced to seek out gear that doesn't have Int, which only compounds our mana issues. If they would just break down and give us a reason to want Int (making Careful Aim passive for ALL Hunters is one idea that many Hunters have suggested), the mail gear would be MUCH more appealing to us. And they just have to get over the idea that MP5 is a worthwhile stat for us...its high cost and low impact until it's stacked make it a terrible DPS stat. How often do you see MP5 on Mage or Warlock gear? What makes them think that Hunters want it if those classes do not??

Not really sure what your point is about 'base stats'. Having a greater spread of stats is beneficial (just ask any Shadowpriest if he'd like to scale with more than one stat). Also not sure why you make the distinction between base stats and other stats (like spellpower).

Also, I'd love some mail gear itemized like leather. That way, we'd get to use set bonuses without sacrificing stats, and we'd be able to actually use some of our raid gear for solo/PvPing without taking a 50% armour hit.

Wickedgirl · 03/24/08, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Yeah. There seem to be a number of T7 sets, which are 'pairs' of sets. They're pairs in that bosses drop some of each, and then you trade for the other using a sunmote:

Feral<->Rogue
Tree<->Moonkin
RestoSham<->Elemental
HealingPriest<->ShadowPriest
Healadin<->Protadin
ProtWarr<->DPSWarr/Retadin

There's quite obviously another Mail set missing, which we'd expect to be Enh<->Hunter. And if there really is no Warlock<->Mage set, the only dps cloth set (I labeled as ShadowPriest above) will be shared by all 3, which would make those set pieces double or triple the demand of some of the others.

WoW Jutsu raider population percentages numbers from a few days ago:

Warrior 19.56%
Protection 12.24%
Fury 3.73%
Arms 3.59%

Rogue 11.92%
Combat 9.37%
Subtlety 2.08%
Assassination 0.47%

Paladin 11.81%
Holy 9.10%
Protection 1.49%
Retribution 1.22%

Shaman 10.87%
Restoration 4.56%
Enhancement 4.09%
Elemental 2.22%

Priest 10.66%
Holy 5.84%
Shadow 3.88%
Discipline 0.95%

Hunter 9.81%
Beast Mastery 6.09%
Marksmanship 2.08%
Survival 1.64%

Mage 8.86%
Fire 5.44%
Frost 2.27%
Arcane 1.15%

Warlock 8.38%
Destruction 5.88%
Affliction 1.62%
Demonology 0.88%

Druid 8.12%
Restoration 4.38%
Feral 3.20%
Balance 0.54%

If that "exchange rate" stays (as it in all probability will) we will have some quite intensely contested pieces (I'm using these numbers as a frame of reference, not as any kind of absolute values, of course):

Rogue <-> Feral = 11.92% vs 3.20%
holy Priests <-> cloth DPSers = 5.84% vs (3.88 + 8.86 + 8.38) 21.12%
healing Pala <-> tanking Pala = 9.10% vs 1.49%
(possibly) Hunters <-> enhShammie = 9.81% vs 4.09%

A little bit more balanced
tank Warrior <-> DPS Warrior+Retadins = 12.24% vs (3.73 + 3.59 + 1.22) 8.54%
resto Shammy <-> elemShammy = 4.56% vs 2.22%

and then compared to resto Druid 4.38% vs Moonkins 0.54% (basically uncontested loot)

Of course, a big issue in this "math" is the probable average number of each specc in the average raid, but still, this could cause some frustration.

Unseen · 03/24/08, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

There's quite obviously another Mail set missing, which we'd expect to be Enh<->Hunter. And if there really is no Warlock<->Mage set, the only dps cloth set (I labeled as ShadowPriest above) will be shared by all 3, which would make those set pieces double or triple the demand of some of the others.

I'd actually expect that there is only one mail physical set, that will have to do for both classes, kind of as it has been before. It would also explain why it it isn't on MMO champion (only the exchangeable stuff was datamined?). I'd also expect that there is another cloth dps set which doesn't have spirit on it, which like the mail set would not have anything to do with the vendor.

WernerVonBraun · 03/24/08, 10:13 PM

Patch is out this week. You can already download it at gamespot.com.

McInaction · 03/24/08, 10:24 PM

All hunter gear is inflated stats simply because they use +attack power over +ranged attack power, which is cheaper to itemize.

If they used +ranged attack power they could slap on a bunch of int and mp5 without hurting our damage output as much. But they don't want to do that because they want offset mail pieces to be used for enhancement as well.

Bubbs · 03/24/08, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by WernerVonBraun

Patch is out this week. You can already download it at gamespot.com.

You can download Sunwell wallpapers, but I don't see anywhere you can download the actual patch.

jusion · 03/24/08, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Yeah. There seem to be a number of T7 sets, which are 'pairs' of sets. They're pairs in that bosses drop some of each, and then you trade for the other using a sunmote:

Feral<->Rogue
Tree<->Moonkin
RestoSham<->Elemental
HealingPriest<->ShadowPriest
Healadin<->Protadin
ProtWarr<->DPSWarr/Retadin

There's quite obviously another Mail set missing, which we'd expect to be Enh<->Hunter. And if there really is no Warlock<->Mage set, the only dps cloth set (I labeled as ShadowPriest above) will be shared by all 3, which would make those set pieces double or triple the demand of some of the others.

I believe the vendor is meant so that classes with multiple roles can exchange roles easily. Hunters, mages, and warlocks all use pretty much the same gear for all their specs, which eliminates the need for exchange vendor gear for them.

• Phara · 03/24/08, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Bubbs

You can download Sunwell wallpapers, but I don't see anywhere you can download the actual patch.

for PC Download at GameSpot

Irise · 03/24/08, 10:33 PM

Not to put a too fine point on it but one of six sets of those equivalent gears is demand by roughly 27% of the raiding population. They have implemented essentially a token system but now instead of 3 tokens being spread over 10 classes, we instead have 6 tokens being spread over 10 classes.

I don't want to belabor this too much since an elementary calculation will show that the chance of certain class/specs getting shafted increases dramatically as you increase the number of tokens. This directly contributes to uneven gearing up of a raid group. Hopefully the future dungeons will go back to more equitable loot distributions.

Jarlyn · 03/24/08, 10:33 PM

Here's hoping for 2.4 tomorrow then! *fingerscrossed*

jusion · 03/24/08, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Phara

for PC Download at GameSpot

"There is no file associated with this story." That makes me think that they just have the page prepared early, or they just took it down really fast.

gcbirzan · 03/24/08, 10:41 PM

Wasn't the client side patch available since a few weeks ago?

Logio · 03/24/08, 11:01 PM

The doors to the 2.4 Public Test Realm and Tournament Test Realm are now closing. We wanted to thank everyone for their participation and bug reports, and we'll see you on the live realms!

WoW Forums -> Patch 2.4 Testing Concluded

Hoping for tomorrow too!

Spink · 03/24/08, 11:01 PM

The Patch was accidentally prematurely posted on the GameSpot site, they took the file down after receiving sufficient publicity on the wow forums and probably an angry phonecall. It was a 965MB file which suggests it's probably 2.0 to 2.4, but I believe it is sufficient evidence to believe that the patch is ready.

Also the fact that the following tuesday is april fools is probably another reason they want to release this tuesday, rather than that one.

Daenerys · 03/24/08, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by panny

Not really sure what your point is about 'base stats'. Having a greater spread of stats is beneficial (just ask any Shadowpriest if he'd like to scale with more than one stat). Also not sure why you make the distinction between base stats and other stats (like spellpower).

Also, I'd love some mail gear itemized like leather. That way, we'd get to use set bonuses without sacrificing stats, and we'd be able to actually use some of our raid gear for solo/PvPing without taking a 50% armour hit.

Spreading out the stats is good, but only to a point. You could cram all sorts of stats on Hunter gear if you added Str and Spi, too, but that won't make it any better. The distinction in base stats is this:

Hunter Gear   Caster Gear
Agi           Int
Stam          Stam
Int           Damage
AP            Hit
Hit           Crit
Crit

Those are the common stats you have. While you do get more stats by spreading them out, it doesn't really help that much when one of the stats you're spreading into gives such marginal benefit (Int for Hunters). Take those points out of Int and put them in the stats the provide damage or give us more reason to covet the stat. Casters have Stam and then 4 "stats" that all add to their damage (yes the crit from Int is marginal, but it's better than nothing). Hunters have Stam, 4 stats that give damage, and 1 stat that does nothing other than give us a pool of mana to do that damage. See what I mean now?

xylotism · 03/24/08, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by rayijin

I've been doing some BGs out of boredom / to be capped on honor whenever s4 comes out, and there are a surprising amount of players in green gear. As in, ilvl 90 quest reward greens. Warlocks wearing +healing shoulders. That sort of thing. Zero resilience.

All it does is give a just-hit-70 player some manner of gear that doesn't completely suck. As always, it's just blizzard making it easier to "catch up" for a new player. Most of us may scoff at the gear, even for my alts (both of mine are 4/5 vengeful with zero effort on my part), but for a fresh reroll or new player, it's a godsend, and happens to be a matching set.

If I ever level another character to 70, those vendors will be the first thing I hit.

I've been playing the 61-69 BGs [currently 68, gonna hit 69 today] and I've just been clearing house, even against premades!

There's either a large lack of skill in BGs, or nobody is geared for it. It's strange though, as I'm just using a mix of instance blues and quest greens, and my normal leveling talent build.

Mu · 03/25/08, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Logio

WoW Forums -> Patch 2.4 Testing Concluded

Hoping for tomorrow too!

I recently started playing again after being out of it for almost 8 months. Personally I wouldn't mind another run through BT to get my character geared a little more properly, but badges from 25-man raids, the new heroic and 3 set piece tokens off each boss will help a great deal. So bring on the sunwell, I may still be in T4 but hey it's got overpowered set bonuses anyways.

Last_Human · 03/25/08, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Daenerys

Spreading out the stats is good, but only to a point. You could cram all sorts of stats on Hunter gear if you added Str and Spi, too, but that won't make it any better. The distinction in base stats is this:

Hunter Gear   Caster Gear
Agi           Int
Stam          Stam
Int           Damage
AP            Hit
Hit           Crit
Crit

Those are the common stats you have. While you do get more stats by spreading them out, it doesn't really help that much when one of the stats you're spreading into gives such marginal benefit (Int for Hunters). Take those points out of Int and put them in the stats the provide damage or give us more reason to covet the stat. Casters have Stam and then 4 "stats" that all add to their damage (yes the crit from Int is marginal, but it's better than nothing). Hunters have Stam, 4 stats that give damage, and 1 stat that does nothing other than give us a pool of mana to do that damage. See what I mean now?

Unfortunately Spirit and occasionally spell penetration show up as 'common caster stats' it could be argued that spirit for most casters is less useful than int for hunters.
I have no doubt that hunters would in general prefer no mana/5 on gear and a more compelling reason to want int, but to say that you find yourself in a unique position with regard to wasted 'base' stats on loot seems to cross the line from legit complaint to whine for me.

Soralin · 03/25/08, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

/sigh

I won't say anything else for fear of receiving another whining infraction.

You just did say something else?

It's worth pointing out that even if the patch does go live today that the badge vendor won't be there for a while - its in Phase 3 of the "opening event", I believe, so will take a while for the island/armory to be reclaimed.

Addled · 03/25/08, 1:00 AM

I'm a little bit shocked that 2.4 is rolling out tomorrow, but it does seem to be true. There's a message on the login screen warning of extended maintenance tomorrow.

Makes me wonder what Blizzard is going to do about the outstanding issues, like enhance/hunter itemization.

Wolflord · 03/25/08, 1:05 AM

Originally Posted by Addled

I'm a little bit shocked that 2.4 is rolling out tomorrow, but it does seem to be true. There's a message on the login screen warning of extended maintenance tomorrow.

Makes me wonder what Blizzard is going to do about the outstanding issues, like enhance/hunter itemization.

There is no outstanding itemisation issue. The physical dps mail simply does not have another set to trade with. The loot is there, such as [Mantle of the Golden Forest].

Daenerys · 03/25/08, 1:19 AM

Originally Posted by Last_Human

Unfortunately Spirit and occasionally spell penetration show up as 'common caster stats' it could be argued that spirit for most casters is less useful than int for hunters.
I have no doubt that hunters would in general prefer no mana/5 on gear and a more compelling reason to want int, but to say that you find yourself in a unique position with regard to wasted 'base' stats on loot seems to cross the line from legit complaint to whine for me.

It is a whine, I guess, but I think it's a valid whine (maybe I'm biased, but I suspect there are plenty other Hunters who feel the same way). As for your point, the random occasion of Spirit or Spell Pen. on piece or two of caster gear doesn't really compare to Int being on 95% of mail physical DPS gear. Calling Spirit or Spell Pen. "common caster stats" is a stretch; they are very rare.

Threepi · 03/25/08, 1:29 AM

Really, it's pretty rare for any class to have perfect itemization. It's annoying that my best cloak and neck are both off of Kael, or that the [Shivering Felspine] pretty much just takes [Halberd of Desolation] and replaces the useful +Hit, with useless +Haste.

Itemization is something Blizz will likely never get "right," and I have to imagine that things will just get worse as they try to normalize gear between classes and specs.

Brakar · 03/25/08, 1:37 AM

Originally Posted by Daenerys

It is a whine, I guess, but I think it's a valid whine (maybe I'm biased, but I suspect there are plenty other Hunters who feel the same way). As for your point, the random occasion of Spirit or Spell Pen. on piece or two of caster gear doesn't really compare to Int being on 95% of mail physical DPS gear. Calling Spirit or Spell Pen. "common caster stats" is a stretch; they are very rare.

Look at shadow priest T6. Spirit on 5 pieces (114 in total), MP5 on 6 pieces (55 in total), spell crit on 5 of the pieces (99 in total.) All three stats are somewhere between pretty bad and nearly worthless with regards to dps. That's a total of 350 itemization points that are spent horribly (not factoring in how the costs change as you stack one.) Mage T6 has 184 spirit, the same amount of int on your T6. Note, there is spirit on every single piece of mage T6, sounds pretty common to me.

Forgive me for not finding the hunter position especially bad. Sure, itemization isn't perfect, but you're far from the only class with that problem and not the worst off from it in my view.

Edit: Hunter gear has an additional 19 mp5, and mage gear 18 spell penetration so hunter gear "wins" by wasting a further 25 points or so. Still far short of the priest set though.