ohcrocsle

Sorry, I didn't happen to see the sticky about content info until after I posted, so the info was removed.

You're probably just misunderstanding a confusing tooltip on the debuff.

 

◊ Cadfael

arght, deleted.

 

rooppa

In regards to brutalis, the benchmark of 2k dps from each DPS in the raid does not seem that far fetched. Although I personally will never have the privilege of looking at such fights in my current raiding situation, what I can do is compare new items, specifically those that are coming out of the instance that will be accessible from the 1st boss or trash.

Looking mainly at some of the item's coming from trade skill drops such as The new leather working BoP chest

This is a far increase in terms of stats in comparison to even the tier 6 chest piece, especially when you consider the price of haste in stat allocation on a lot of item’s. Given that allot of high end raids now push themselves to the limit, I really don’t think that it is out of the realms of imagination that they will leave the new version brutalis in there until one of 2 thing's happen;

1) The raiding community on a whole have attempted the fight for neigh on a month and still no one is able to kill him after release of the patch, so they nerf him down slightly in health to a level that the top attempts on him would have killed him.

OR

2) They nerf him down slightly prior to the release of the patch after monitoring the attempts on him so that a higher gear level is required that people are currently running at when 1st entering SW, (even higher than the full farming BT guilds which have completed the instance 6 months ago) thus prompting at least 2-3 resets before players are able to get the equivalent higher DPS that is required, and therefore extending the lifespan of the instance.

Either way, I personally think that the increase in brutalis health may just be the challenge that a lot of people have been looking/craving for in terms of "Very hard to neigh on impossible category of raiding boss's" to carry them over till the release of WotLK.

 

Sayessa

They also make a crackling sound like a fire, but i hardly doubt anyone could not see this huge, fiery thing.

 

◊ Praetorian

Well the problem is that in Naxx, if you couldn't kill Patchwerk, you had six other "easier" bosses to farm and start gearing up your tanks, DPS, etc. Farming Kalecgos alone isn't going to give a sufficient raid DPS increase to push any group over the top when they otherwise could not meet the DPS standard. Plus there are certain limitations on how tightly you can tune that sort of thing while remaining fair. Take two identical guilds, except the Guild #1 has three sets of Warglaives, and Guild #2 has never seen any. On a demon boss, Guild #1 is probably going to do maybe 750 extra sustained DPS total. That's 270,000 damage over a 6min fight. If Guild #1 kills him right as he berserks, then Guild #2 will wipe.

 

Vhad

2,000 dps for 6 minutes is not something alot of classes can maintain, people seem to keep forgetting that all those high WWS reports of 2k+ dps people are ALL on fights lasting 2 - 3 minutes some maybe close to 4 minutes (those don't have a majority of 2k+ dps'ers though). Critical strike evening out, trinkets and cooldown uptime going down and 2,000 dps all of a sudden is much more interesting.

With that being said, I'm going to echo the notion that overtuning and then fine tune encounters based on best attempts on PTR will be great. Brutallus sounds like a whole lot of fun.

What!?

 

Caligula

They do, however, have 14 bosses in Hyjal and BT to farm. Blizzard will find a balance somewhere, but I don't think requiring 4/5 T6 on every player in the raid would be too much. Our last Teron kill clocked in at 28.5k RDPS. We brought 7 healers, and some of our members are still looking for 1-2 pieces of their T6. 30k RDPS certainly doesn't seem out of our range at all. We certainly don't stack anything. We had 3 Shadow Priests, a Ret Pally, Moonkin, Elem Shammy, 2 Warlocks, 2 Rogues, etc. 30k RDPS actually seems like a very good number to shoot for BT/Hyjal equipped guilds. Guilds with dual Warglaive members will have a slightly easier time, but there's really no way to compensate for that short of handing out loot to even the score.

All classes don't have to do 2k DPS. Pure DPS classes are pushing 2400-2500 sustained at the moment, hybrid group/raid buffing classes are doing no less than 1400-1500. It all evens out.

If anything I'd rather them leave him slightly over tuned to give all or at least most guilds a challenge, rather than leaving him under tuned and having it feel too easy.

 

Vhad

My point was that even pure dps classes are going to have a hard time _sustaining_ 2,5k+ dps, the reason classes get so high is the length of the fights they do it on and the RnG factoring in so much. I've seen a mage do 2800 dps @ Rage because the fight was so short and he got 66% crit. That's not going to happen very realistcally on a 6 minute fight.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but flat 2,000 for 6 minutes is not an easy task.

Just to reiterate, according to Lhavieras TC site, with my pretty much perfect current endgame gear in a 6 minute fight with all buffs short of heroism averaged (Flask, Dmg Food, Misery, CoE, JoW, Oil) I'm looking at doing 1,690 sustained dps for a 6 minute tank and spank fight. That's 800 less than what it would take to pull the weight for hybrid classes IF they pull 1500 each for 6 minutes too.

What!?

 

◊ Kyth

How long was your Gorefiend kill? Remember, the shorter the fight, the more the impact of cooldowns, bloodlust, trinkets, etc. have, because they are a larger portion of the fight.

6 minutes is substantially different from 4 minutes in that regard (or, for the guilds farming Illidan, 2-3 minutes.)

Officer of <Fusion>
http://www.stratfu.com/ - StratFu: Strategies, Guides, Movies, and Tips for Wrath Raiding

 

• Jamor

I agree on the glaives, having multiple sets will certainly help. Another case where Atiesh style legendaries would have been a plus. Another factor, is how much attrition you had from the extended length of BT farming. And how many undergeared (from a 2K DPS perspective) players guilds will have by the time Sunwell hits. Perhaps for many guilds, that may have a bigger impact. For example we are currently gearing up two hunters at the same time, because more of our hunter core was on extended "RL" breaks. If they come back in time, or if we gear up the new guys in time...great. But that's just hoping the RNG helps us out.

We have been discussing DPS numbers in guild since the HP change was put in. The length of the high Teron parses would have been lower if they were 6 minutes instead of 2.5 minutes. Just think of the impact of heroism on a shorter fight vs. one that's double as long. Many of the raids pulling 30K plus on that fight are going to have issue on a 6 minute fight.

 

tedv

I doubt most guilds have all their DPS chain chug Haste or Destruction potions, although my napkin math says this is less than a 500 DPS gain. Perhaps the secret is lots of Leather workers for drums?

 

Strifen

Hopefully they do something similar for BE females. Anyone that has played a BE female can tell you all the 2h weapons look outright silly on them. They're way too small and stubby.

 

Halldritch

Another thing to keep in mind is that on Teron a good 1.5-3k dps in most WWS parses comes from the Vengeful Spirit dps. Not everyone has them set to pets but most of those do and there are still only ~100 reports on WWS that break the 30k barrier. On Teron to break the 30k barrier it is roughly a 3 minute fight. So everyone has Bloodlust/Heroism for about 25% of the fight, any 2 minute abilities you can use twice. Stretch that to 6 minutes and sure you can use 2 minute trinkets 3 times and 3 minute abilities twice but that isn't going to make up for only having Bloodlust/Heroism 12% of the time.

Also a lot of those raids with 30k+ dps are taking anywhere from 3 to 5 healers, I doubt you are going to walk into Brutallus with 4 or 5 healers for a first kill.

 

◊ Praetorian

Those 35k+ Teron parses people are seeing involve:
1) People who are definitely using haste/destruction pots and LW drums.
2) Stacked raids with far fewer healers than would be feasible for learning a Sunwell gear check.
3) In some cases, the Darkmoon Faire buff.
4) As noted, frontloading of cooldowns.
5) A very low-armor mob.

A warglaives rogue can sustain 2500 DPS for 6 minutes. Saying "oh people have done 39k DPS on Teron, 30k should be nothing" is a bit simplistic.

Anyway, as people have noted, the best way to do this is to start high and tune down as needed. That's the best way to tune bosses in general. We don't need another BT where everything dies in the first week and then Blizzard has to go back and retune it all for every guild that follows.

 

Moogul

Apologies if this is against the 'don't talk about tactics' policy, but out of curiosity do we know what Brutallus' Armor value is yet? This would obviously factor in quite heavily to the DPS requirements.

 

Vhad

Perhaps not now, but on new content and fighting for server first? The name of the DPS game right now is very short fights with high heroism uptime (fastest Teron kills have 30% heroism uptime . . .) and cooldown stacking, on a longer fight this won't result in much higher dps. For instance, for a 6 minute fight I'm not sure I can chain cast destruction pots and flame cap over mana pots and mana gems, this will also result in a lower average dps.

What!?

 

Illundai

We tried to stack our raid on Teron 2 weeks back, to see what we could do. The result was 31k RDPS without ghosts, 35.5k with.
We had 6 healers, which is a fair bit more than the ridiculous "oh, people who do 30+k dps on Teron only bring 3 healers!". Honestly, that is a ridiculous claim. As many mentioned before, the only reason we get these high numbers is the short duration of the fight. And indeed, the secret is having lots and lots of leatherworkers and a damn lot of melee.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Xtatic

Thank you! I really like the way they are going about this tuning process... Over-tune then adjust accordingly. Hell, they could even keep him the way it is and just force you to raid stack farm BT/Hyjal until every player has the best item in each slot. I personally want the bosses to be next to impossible. I find it amusing that we have sat here day in and day out for the last 8 months complaining about no new content and the lack of difficulty of the current content. Finally they ramp it up so that under its current condition it is either just possible or next to impossible and people begin to complain. We have 6 bosses in Sunwell... 6... SIX. Those six bosses have to last us until the expansion and I hope they keep up the difficulty they have now. Make each and every kill meaningful to everyone. Under their previous forms Brutallus and Felmyst were considered push over bosses. Thats not something we want as a raiding community. Of course everyone wants to see these bosses fall, but there are so many people that have this double edged sword towards the way blizzard designs encounters. If its too easy we complain, if its too difficult we complain... Make it difficult, at least then it will A. Last a while and B. Make the kills meaningful.

 

Caligula

Our Teron was three minutes.

Graphing the DPS increase from using cooldowns versus time would look like a sine wave, it would not be linear or exponential, and it's certainly not a steady decline.

The Bloodlust/Heroism factor is bigger than trinkets or drum rotations. In a four minute fight you pop trinkets twice, in a six minute fight you pop them three times. The same goes with drums, if you can keep a drum rotation up for 75% of the time in a four minute fight, you can do the same with a six minute one. Only one Bloodlust/Heroism in a four or six minute fight is the only really significant factor. In fact, in a three minute fight versus a six minute fight (for mages at least) the latter would allow for the exact same amount of cooldowns. One Combustion/Icy Veins in the first fight, two of each in the second.

When comparing individual Teron kills it does make a difference. A guild who kills Teron at 4' has a significantly less trinket uptime than a guild that kills Teron at 2'40". Perhaps once everyone is using Brutallus as a benchmark these numbers will have more of a factor. At first when the playing field is somewhat level (discounting Warglaive drop randomness), and everyone is simply shooting for a 6' kill, Heroism/Bloodlust will be the noticeably big difference.

 

Calencia

I'm just wondering if opening the gates and advancing the town building might tie into how tough he is. Would be interesting if he started off stupid hard if none of the gates were opened, but became weaker and weaker (relatively speaking) as each gate was opened.

Would certainly provide a bit more incentive to opening those gates.

 

• Falk

No idea what's happening here. There are two herb notes on my screen, left and right. The right side one is sparkling as if it was a quest item... I spotted it from far away and thought "Oh wow, now herb notes sparkle too... WoW becomes even more casual friendly."

Then I spotted the node right next to it. Some things make me really scratch my head.

 

Sayessa

Since the gates require you to turn in drops from Sunwell bosses, that would be fairly stupid. How can you weaken the boss by killing him if no one can kill him in the first place ?

To the person above me: did the right node contain nether residue and the left didn't ? Maybe that's the normal quest item sparkling.

 

◊ Praetorian

Not sure if this is a response to me, but I was saying that the people who have like 38k DPS on Teron definitely did bring very few healers. 30k is easily doable with a nonstacked ordinary raid and no unusual buffs, but as I think we all agree, a <3min fight is very different from a 6min fight in terms of timers and other factors (mages presumably would need to evocate, for example, which they do not do on Teron). (This is a 30.7k no-ghost parse with 7 healers from our last Teron: WWS Loading...)

Yeah I don't care if people talk about how much hp a boss has or whether he's high-armor or low-armor. Basically I just want to avoid pages of "well he has abilities X and Y" with a dozen people who haven't done the fight saying "interesting, sounds like the way to go is to do _______" and then three people who have done the fight coming in with "no you're dumb, the way you do it is ______, here's a video," etc.

 

Axl_Stukov

Did the herb on the right drop the collection quest item?

 

Malan

This was posted 2 pages ago. What bracers is this guy talking about? The T6 bracers?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06