2.4 PTR and Patch Notes - Page 57

songster · 02/15/08, 11:53 AM

Herb sparkling came in with the last patch - they sparkle if you have herb tracking active. In some regions, geometrical screwups prevent the sparkles showing, and that's what you see here.

• Falk · 02/15/08, 11:55 AM

I'm uh... not a herbalist >_>

Caligula · 02/15/08, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by songster

Herb sparkling came in with the last patch - they sparkle if you have herb tracking active. In some regions, geometrical screwups prevent the sparkles showing, and that's what you see here.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what he was saying in that post. The herb sparkling has been in since 2.3. It's not new in 2.4. In fact, anything that you can interact with sparkles now (at least it's supposed to sans graphical glitches as noted).

◊ Praetorian · 02/15/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

This was posted 2 pages ago. What bracers is this guy talking about?

The T6 bracers?

Yes.

xyruul · 02/15/08, 12:03 PM

On the note of DMF buff, that seriously needs to be removed from PvE raids just like every other world buff has been. The difference in dps on a demon between a dual glaive rogue with a lucky 10% dmf buff vs one with only an offhand and a 1% buff is borderline retarded, considering it's completely luck based which of each you get.
Plus, how many guilds are only going to be able to farm him the first week of every month?

ps-please leave the dmf buff in bg's though, I've yet to attain my 16k starfire crit

• Falk · 02/15/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Caligula

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what he was saying in that post. The herb sparkling has been in since 2.3. It's not new in 2.4. In fact, anything that you can interact with sparkles now (at least it's supposed to sans graphical glitches as noted).

Right, color me stupid for not checking the previous patch notes regarding the sparkles.

Now the issue has changed to non-herbalism characters being able to spot sparkles on herbalism nodes, I guess.

◊ Lactose · 02/15/08, 12:11 PM

Since I'm still not able to get on the EU PTRs, could someone check if [Elixir of Demonslaying] was changed to work with ranged attacks, or if it's still melee only?

EDIT: How-to for Hunters:
1. Arcane Shot a mob.
2. Quaff potion.
3. Arcane Shot a mob.
4. Compare.

beathoven · 02/15/08, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Those 35k+ Teron parses people are seeing involve:
1) People who are definitely using haste/destruction pots and LW drums.
2) Stacked raids with far fewer healers than would be feasible for learning a Sunwell gear check.
3) In some cases, the Darkmoon Faire buff.
4) As noted, frontloading of cooldowns.
5) A very low-armor mob.

A warglaives rogue can sustain 2500 DPS for 6 minutes. Saying "oh people have done 39k DPS on Teron, 30k should be nothing" is a bit simplistic.

Anyway, as people have noted, the best way to do this is to start high and tune down as needed. That's the best way to tune bosses in general. We don't need another BT where everything dies in the first week and then Blizzard has to go back and retune it all for every guild that follows.

I think one of the bigger problems we're currently seeing is that more and more guilds are reaching a fairly high level of professionalism when it comes to new content and being among the first to kill bosses. As several people have already pointed out theorycraft is not a topic for hard core geeks anymore but has gotten a lot more accessible to a larger base of people by now with all the spreadsheets for various classes that are available now.

Additionally with all the information sharing thats happening in a lot larger scale these days encounters are being dissected by highly skilled and experienced people. E.g. looking back at one of my favourite examples, it took several weeks for top guilds to figure out precisely how to handle 4 Horsemen and then find a proper execution for it. After the info was "out" so to speak it still was a big achievement to kill them, but for example it took the guild i was in back then a mere 3 evenings to figure out proper rotations that worked for us and they were dead.

Also, we are currently not seeing a lot of completely new and hard to figure out boss mechanics. Take Thaddius, Loatheb, Patchwerk or 4 Horsemen again as a counter example where completely new mechanics were introduced that needed to be first fully understood until real progress could be made and strategies refined.

And last but not least even if there are new combat mechanics with all the experience the top raiding guilds have by now and the tools that are now available (WWS e.g.) it gets a lot easier to even figure out completely new mechanics quicker than before.

This means though that guilds that don't focus on maximizing raid performance (class composition, group setups, gear and spec choices just to name a few) will most likely face encounters which look impossible for them to beat whereas other guilds with similar gear will beat on the first evening.

I personally hope that Blizzard will tune those encounters so that even the top guilds will find them a challenge for at least 1-2 months even if they beat it on the first few evenings there. As shown previously Blizzard can always tune down encounters after they have been out for a while so that more people will be able to enjoy the remaining content. If they time it right and align it with the release date of WotLK, say, tune down encounters 3 months before WotLK hits the shelves i think most guilds would be at least semi happy. Hard at the start, easier semi shortly before new content comes.

◊ Uljin · 02/15/08, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Since I'm still not able to get on the EU PTRs, could someone check if [Elixir of Demonslaying] was changed to work with ranged attacks, or if it's still melee only?

Having just gone to check Lactose; my arcane shots are hitting for 582 before and after taking an [Elixir of Demonslaying]. Looks like there's no change as of yet.

• Jamor · 02/15/08, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Xtatic

Thank you! I really like the way they are going about this tuning process... Over-tune then adjust accordingly. Hell, they could even keep him the way it is and just force you to raid stack farm BT/Hyjal until every player has the best item in each slot. I personally want the bosses to be next to impossible. I find it amusing that we have sat here day in and day out for the last 8 months complaining about no new content and the lack of difficulty of the current content. Finally they ramp it up so that under its current condition it is either just possible or next to impossible and people begin to complain. We have 6 bosses in Sunwell... 6... SIX. Those six bosses have to last us until the expansion and I hope they keep up the difficulty they have now. Make each and every kill meaningful to everyone. Under their previous forms Brutallus and Felmyst were considered push over bosses. Thats not something we want as a raiding community. Of course everyone wants to see these bosses fall, but there are so many people that have this double edged sword towards the way blizzard designs encounters. If its too easy we complain, if its too difficult we complain... Make it difficult, at least then it will A. Last a while and B. Make the kills meaningful.

I don't think people are really complaining -- just speculating on the tuning level. And how possible it is to beat the encounter in it's current state. I am very excited for extremely difficult content -- this is what most guilds were hoping for (I am assuming that is the case anyway).

Fola · 02/15/08, 12:41 PM

Teron as a surrogate for rough analysis:

Shortest kill I could find in WWS using the ghosts to DPS = 2:17
Shortest kill I could find in WWS that excluded the ghosts = 2:38

Lets get a bit more aggressive and and say the 2:17 group could taken down the boss in 2:30 exlcuding the ghosts. 4.9 million HPs over 150 seconds results in a RDPS of 32666.

150 second fight
Bloodlust/Heroism Uptime = 26.7%
2 Two Minute trinket Usages (40 seconds) = 26.7%
Icy Veins Uptime = 13.3%
Haste Drums Uptime = 100% (lets take an extreme where 4/5 people in each group are LW)

In a 300 second fight
1 Bloodlust/Heroism Uptime - 13.3%
3 Two Minute trinket Usages (60 seconds) – 20%
2 Icy Veins (40 seconds) – 13.3%
Haste Drums = 100% (left alone @4/5 people per group)

The losses in uptime are relatively large >13% less uptime of Bloodlust/Heroism and >6% less uptime of on use trinkets. Should be interesting to see how this develops definitely interesting data soon to be collected, much more interesting than seeing the first 3 bosses dead

Hope I didn't make a mistake above – this is more to illustrate the differences between 2.5 minute and 6 minute fights and lend to the entertaining discussion.

Other CDs to consider (feel free to add ones):
Racials
Slice & Dice
Rapid Fire
Others I can't think off of the top of my head

Vetinari · 02/15/08, 12:41 PM

nevermind, looked at wowhead, and found the information i wanted

Valen · 02/15/08, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Kyth

How long was your Gorefiend kill? Remember, the shorter the fight, the more the impact of cooldowns, bloodlust, trinkets, etc. have, because they are a larger portion of the fight.

6 minutes is substantially different from 4 minutes in that regard (or, for the guilds farming Illidan, 2-3 minutes.)

That's a big missconception that people believe shorter fights automatically mean higher CD up time. Heroism aside, a 6 min fight is way better than a 3 min fight for almost every class, considering that most powerful CDs are 3 or 5 min.

Basically, 2 min CD abilities (potions, drums, class abilities) favor 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 min fights. You get less drums up time procent in a 2 min fight than in a 3 min fight, way less. 3 min CDs, favor 4, 7, 10 min fights. 5 min CDs, which are normally the most powerful ones, all favor 6 min fights.

Now, why do people seem to almost always do more dps in shorter fights? It's just the impact of heroism (which is not a big issue for a guild with 2 shamans like us), the lucky crit strings and the fact that people will have a higher chance to mess their cycles up in a longer fight OR the higher chance to get stoped by a boss ability for a limited time. For something like aneth it simply means that you will eventually get sleep a few times.

cladnin · 02/15/08, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Caligula

...and it's certainly not a steady decline.

How can you even make such a claim? Bloodlust/Heroism alone loses quite a bit on any fight longer than 40 seconds long and less than 10 minutes long (Ie: a fight where you cast it twice). The shorter the fight, the stronger Bloodlust gets. 40sec/180sec is 22% of the fight. Jump forward to Brutallus, assume it is a very fine line of beating him, you kill him at the **berserk** timer (6 minutes). 40sec/360sec is 11% of the fight. 30% increase (Or greater depending on your cooldown use) for 20% of the fight is quite a bit more than 10%. Add in how min/maxing cooldowns during bloodlust happens, you're talking a much larger increase than 30%. On a 3 minute Teron kill you won't get more than one "class ability" (3 minute cooldown). Speaking as a mage alone during Bloodlust I'd also have: Drums, Destruction Potion, Combustion, Icy Veins, Skull of Gul'dan, Hex Trinket, Flame Cap - all getting a 30% gain from heroism, on top of my normal heroismed dps. I'd venture a 15% dps loss (if not greater) without throwing numbers around at doubling the fight from 3 minutes to 6 minutes.

Deadstar · 02/15/08, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

This was posted 2 pages ago. What bracers is this guy talking about?

The T6 bracers?

Confirmed

Skyshatter Wristguards

Sad to see the Agi converted to Hit, to be honest. There was a decent amount of Crit on them before.

Caligula · 02/15/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by cladnin

How can you even make such a claim? Bloodlust/Heroism alone loses quite a bit on any fight longer than 40 seconds long and less than 10 minutes long (Ie: a fight where you cast it twice).

Your second sentence demonstrates why I can make such a claim and have it be correct. At that point in the post I wasn't referring to a 6 minute fight specifically.

Valen here has gone further in depth on that.

Originally Posted by Valen

That's a big missconception that people believe shorter fights automatically mean higher CD up time. Heroism aside, a 6 min fight is way better than a 3 min fight for almost every class, considering that most powerful CDs are 3 or 5 min.

Basically, 2 min CD abilities (potions, drums, class abilities) favor 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 min fights. You get less drums up time procent in a 2 min fight than in a 3 min fight, way less. 3 min CDs, favor 4, 7, 10 min fights. 5 min CDs, which are normally the most powerful ones, all favor 6 min fights.

Now, why do people seem to almost always do more dps in shorter fights? It's just the impact of heroism (which is not a big issue for a guild with 2 shamans like us), the lucky crit strings and the fact that people will have a higher chance to mess their cycles up in a longer fight OR the higher chance to get stoped by a boss ability for a limited time. For something like aneth it simply means that you will eventually get sleep a few times.

cladnin · 02/15/08, 1:10 PM

But it is a steady decline, outside those 3 minutes. It's a completely linear change from the time heroism drops until the next heroism is cast. Small increases for trinkets, but those are all on the same timer, again. It's a completely linear downfall.

And edit: it's good to see you can read the first sentence of my post, but not the rest, seeing as I state pretty much the same thing, except he ignores an important fact, COOLDOWNS WHILE BLOODLUST IS UP.

Caligula · 02/15/08, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by cladnin

But it is a steady decline, outside those 3 minutes. It's a completely linear change from the time heroism drops until the next heroism is cast. Small increases for trinkets, but those are all on the same timer, again. It's a completely linear downfall.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this because we're discussing two separate things. I'm not sure how you could argue that you'd do less dps in an eleven minute fight where you got two heroisms than in a 10 minute fight where you got one, but that's what I'm saying.

Malan · 02/15/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Deadstar

Confirmed

Skyshatter Wristguards

Sad to see the Agi converted to Hit, to be honest. There was a decent amount of Crit on them before.

The hit and agility are valued the same at the T6 EP values so its not really a loss in terms of dps potential, and the strength change of course makes them more valuable with kings. (Assuming you have 3 paladins

)

At any rate they still end up being a very slight downgrade from Insidious Bands, and are only better if you're able to get the 4pc bonus.

KrinKer · 02/15/08, 1:26 PM

The big difference I see now between Teron and Brutallus is that, for most guild, their "over 30k" rdps = 1 tank and 5-6 healers. I can't see any guild doing brutallus without at least 2 tanks and 7-8 healers. That's 3-4 less pure dps class that any raid would have.

It seems a bit overtuned, but the changes to the fight makes it that much more interesting.

Illundai · 02/15/08, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Not sure if this is a response to me, but I was saying that the people who have like 38k DPS on Teron definitely did bring very few healers. 30k is easily doable with a nonstacked ordinary raid and no unusual buffs, but as I think we all agree, a <3min fight is very different from a 6min fight in terms of timers and other factors (mages presumably would need to evocate, for example, which they do not do on Teron). (This is a 30.7k no-ghost parse with 7 healers from our last Teron: WWS Loading...)

Yeah, well it wasn't a response to you personally. It was more a general response to the nonsense floating about. We can all agree that 30K RDPS is a very very tight benchmark for a 6 minute fight.

Khlysti · 02/15/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

At any rate they still end up being a very slight downgrade from Insidious Bands, and are only better if you're able to get the 4pc bonus.

No, they are straight up better, the stats happen to be in the 'wrong' order by the way, as in strength is the third stat if thats what makes you think they are worse than they are.

Malan · 02/15/08, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Khlysti

No, they are straight up better, the stats happen to be in the 'wrong' order by the way, as in strength is the third stat if thats what makes you think they are worse than they are.

No.

Old version of the T6 bracers are 139.46 EP.
New version of the T6 bracers are 145.86
Insidious Bands using a 5str/5crt gem for the socket bonus are 148.68.

Hence, a slight downgrade.

I'm not so dumb that I was calculating using Intellect as the Strength value is that's what you're implying.

T6 Old = 22*1.69 + 22*1.74 + 64 = 139.46
T6 New = 22*1.74 + 22*1.69 + 32*2.2 = 145.86
Insidious = 28*1.69 + 2*1.69 + 5*1.74 + 12*1.69 +58 +5*2.2 = 148.68

So as I said. ~Slight~ downgrade until you're putting the 4pc bonus into play.

Khlysti · 02/15/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

No.

Old version of the T6 bracers are 139.46 EP.
New version of the T6 bracers are 145.86
Insidious Bands using a 5str/5crt gem for the socket bonus are 148.68.

Hence, a slight downgrade.

I'm not so dumb that I was calculating using Intellect as the Strength value is that's what you're implying.

T6 Old = 22*1.69 + 22*1.74 + 64 = 139.46
T6 New = 22*1.74 + 22*1.69 + 32*2.2 = 145.86
Insidious = 28*1.69 + 2*1.69 + 5*1.74 + 12*1.69 +58 +5*2.2 = 148.68

So as I said. ~Slight~ downgrade until you're putting the 4pc bonus into play.

T6 have a gem slot too. It *is* an upgrade.

Malan · 02/15/08, 2:05 PM

Ok *that* I did miss.