2.4 PTR and Patch Notes - Page 65

• Jamor · 02/16/08, 6:04 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

These items are high ilvl items whose power is actively watered down by bad speed, stats, sockets.
High quality junk, from a certain point of view. If you have access to high-quality gear, the bad stat spreading makes them undesirable. If you don't, their pure raw power from ilvl makes them superior to well-designed low-level gear.

A 1.7s dagger, 1.5s off-hands, 2.5s main-hand. Caster/healer weapon with only 1.5 X sta / X int. Feral weapon with X str / X agi / 1.5X sta, no armour.
A 3.5s two-hander (Cat's Edge shouldn't be 3.5s, but that's another can of worms).
A bow with a "bad" 2.8s speed, while the other "good" ones have 3.0s speed. The good will went bad as itemisation seemingly still does not know how hunteres work and what speeds they want/need. (Off-topic)
Caster cloth with either hit or crit, not both. And no haste. No stat spread, less sockets than usual.

As for the leggings, there are just no good off-set drops before Archimonde. [Gilded Trousers of Benediction] is to appear on your local AH soon though.

It's great for people to catch up or cover bad loot luck. Those items may seem too powerful now.
But it takes 2.4 to go live and some effort with dailies to get access to them.
By that time, the top people will have their first Sunwell weapons, and season 4 is pretty likely to start soon with season 3 gear losing their rating requirement.

I think they are pretty great from that perspective.

I will agree with this on most of the weapons, but some of the armor is pretty nice. But for the most part, the oddities in them make most if it less desireable than the normal T6 level loot. But anyone not that that level will really get a nice boost out of it.

And to all the people saying "they are making me run Kara and ZA" -- someone else said it earlier. Badges will be dropping from 25 man bosses. You will not ever have to set for in Kara and still easily get enough badges to buy the loot. EDIT: A couple people got this sentiment in quicker than I -- but I stand by the statement still.

Finally: Enough with the fucking rogue daggers -- fix the dagger mechanics, or stop shoveling them down everyones throat. Either one would be fine with me.

Prinsesa · 02/16/08, 6:13 AM

Are they trying to make us farm fucking Karaz/ZA till our eyes bleed and completely stop doing SSC/TK.

Not to beat a dead horse, but with 25 mans dropping Badges, a system is now in place to "assure" someone of a given drop. Been farming Illidan for weeks without a single Spire of Karabor? Buy his smaller brother off the vendor!

The raid loot thread has been talking about something like this for quite some time now, and it seems Blizzard has found a very elegant approach.

Franklin · 02/16/08, 6:14 AM

It's pretty well know that they intend 10 man's to be an their own form of progression in WotLK. I think a lot of this is testing to what we'll see in future with Badge drops from 2 instances contributing to shared vendor loot pool. This patch is still a long way off live but adding badges to TK/SSC (as well as future 25 man encounters) seems a natural way to keep the instances relevant as well keeping the raiding community somewhat happy from the gear devaluation in addition to making itemization easier for offspec's.

Ildon raises a good point though on what's the issue why 'waste' stats just to inflate ilvl rather than just giving better balance to lower quality item.

Pamine · 02/16/08, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Not to beat a dead horse, but with 25 mans dropping Badges, a system is now in place to "assure" someone of a given drop. Been farming Illidan for weeks without a single Spire of Karabor? Buy his smaller brother off the vendor!

The raid loot thread has been talking about something like this for quite some time now, and it seems Blizzard has found a very elegant approach.

Except that it's the same type of badges as those dropped in heroic mech. Running heroics for a few days would have brought you the exact same item, which seems sorta ridiculous. Why not make new raid badges for those items.

Salis · 02/16/08, 6:22 AM

While we are on the subject of Badges of Justice, do they drop from sunwell plateau bosses as well?

Hylo · 02/16/08, 6:23 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

A bow with a "bad" 2.8s speed, while the other "good" ones have 3.0s speed. The good will went bad as itemisation seemingly still does not know how hunteres work and what speeds they want/need. (Off-topic)

Yes, 2.8s speed is infinitelly better for BM hunters than 3.0s and hunters have been screaming not to put yet another 3.0 ranged in game.

Finally a weapon that is actually upgrade for BM hunters. Pre-2.4 [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] was the weapon that yielded the most dps in the hands of BM hunters.

vorda · 02/16/08, 6:34 AM

Originally Posted by Salis

While we are on the subject of Badges of Justice, do they drop from sunwell plateau bosses as well?

Yes, all 25 man bosses seem to drop 2 (end bosses possibly more?) badges.

Prinsesa · 02/16/08, 6:37 AM

Except that it's the same type of badges as those dropped in heroic mech. Running heroics for a few days would have brought you the exact same item, which seems sorta ridiculous. Why not make new raid badges for those items.

Because unless you had a lot of time on your hands, it used to be an either/or situation:

1. Either you run Mech/SP/UB every day for weeks to get enough badges for your SSC/TK (soon to be BT) equivalent loot, which for most people gets really old really quickly.

OR

2. You raid like normal and take your chances with the RNG.

It's not fun to run Slave Pens 25 times to get your gear, but neither is running challenging content but never see the drops you want. In order to remedy the situation, Blizzard has made it such that you can keep getting shots at the primo raid gear while still earning your way to a "one-step below" upgrade if lady luck just doesn't like you.

EDIT: The fact that a non-raider can also get access to these items is of much lesser consequence considering:

1. The content they are doing is very repetitive
2. The gear they are getting is BT loot only in terms of ilevel ("A rose by any other name" does not apply here)
3. There's a limit to how many badges you can get a day (as well as a limit to how many heroics a player can stomach), which will make active raiding still give better returns on loot per time spent.
4. WOTLK is looming and any "haha I have BT level loot without having to raid" will be silenced in a couple months

Duilliath · 02/16/08, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Feral weapon with X str / X agi / 1.5X sta, no armour.

Someone else mentioned the bow - I'll take the feral weapon. There hasn't been a single decent DPS upgrade since Karazhan/ZA. All the DPS weapon upgrades came from PvP. It has a bit much stamina, sure, but the stats are actually fairly decent and armour would've been a gawdawful waste on it. By the time you get that loot yer largely armour capped anyway, but that's beside the point - this isn't a tank weapon, it's a DPS one.

Some +hit or +expertise would've been nice, but at least it doesn't throw away stat points on something we're not waiting for at all.

//edit: That said, there's apparently a second Feral staff which hasn't been seen yet, so it's stats aren't clear. It's higher FAP, so probably higher ilevel. Might well be your tank staff, might well be a 'better' DPs staff.

Kombinat · 02/16/08, 6:58 AM

I'm not in a bleeding edge guild. We're currently making a start on T5 content, and from my perspective, these new badge loots are really worth a second look. For the most part, the people I raid with will be very interested in these, both to fill holes in their gear, or for just flat out being better pieces of gear. Some of us are leveling alts. Sure, they're going to have to do rep grinds like the rest of us, but they'll have the option of going for a T6 level piece of loot, instead of whatever happens to drop.

That's the other thing I wanted to raise. We had a druid healer who had every single drop he wanted from kara, except the opera legs. Week after week he came and healed for us, with no leggings to be found. Had this system been in place from the beginning, He'd have had a leg upgrade within a reasonable period of time. It takes an element of randomness out of the loot table, since you know that whatever happens you're a few badges closer to your next upgrade. Before now, I was a bit iffy about 2.4, given that I wasn't going to be able to see the new content for the most part, but now I'm very excited. The specific pieces of gear I've yet to look at, but chances are there's some excellent leather in there for me.

◊ Bekah · 02/16/08, 7:00 AM

Originally Posted by Franklin

Ildon raises a good point though on what's the issue why 'waste' stats just to inflate ilvl rather than just giving better balance to lower quality item.

Think about it.

If they inflate the Ilvl but give it less than ideal stats they can rightfully proclaim that T6 quality gear (which is generally identified by Ilvl and not usefulness of stats- several pieces that are best in slot before T6 are not magically considered "T6 gear!") is on the badge vendors for folks to purchase. If they gave it T5 ilvl and perfect allocation you'd still have most people dismiss it as T5 gear on the vendors and the target audience (people who haven't seen T6 yet and want it now or who've been screwed by the RNG) would still be longing for "real" T6 gear.

The item level on these pieces is strictly an advertising tool. Recognize the hype for what it is and evaluate the usefulness of the items appropriately.

• Falk · 02/16/08, 7:22 AM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

//edit: That said, there's apparently a second Feral staff which hasn't been seen yet, so it's stats aren't clear. It's higher FAP, so probably higher ilevel. Might well be your tank staff, might well be a 'better' DPs staff.

If months-old screenshots are anything to go by, it's similar itemization except with a dollop of Stamina put into armor penetration instead. As most of the other leaked stats have not been changed, this one is likely to end up another DPS staff, a tier higher.

Franklin · 02/16/08, 7:22 AM

Yep I don't disagree that it's basically symbolic - I just found it interesting they're using a measure that greater than 95% of players (casual and raiders alike) don't fully understand to describe what really comes down to 'loot that's nearly as good as something that drops off Boss X'

◊ Panasi · 02/16/08, 7:42 AM

Originally Posted by vorda

Yes, all 25 man bosses seem to drop 2 (end bosses possibly more?) badges.

What is a bit disappointing is that they're recycling the 2badge/boss, 3badge/endboss drops from Kara.

IMO, should have been 4 (5 off kael/vashj) for SSC/TK and 5 (6 off illi/arch) for MH/BT.

Kara giving more badges than BT just seems silly to me.

tawenosaurus · 02/16/08, 7:50 AM

2.4 Changes - El's Extreme Anglin' - WoW Fishing Guide has an overview of 2.4 fishing changes for everyone that's interested

Franklin · 02/16/08, 7:56 AM

Originally Posted by Panasi

What is a bit disappointing is that they're recycling the 2badge/boss, 3badge/endboss drops from Kara.

IMO, should have been 4 (5 off kael/vashj) for SSC/TK and 5 (6 off illi/arch) for MH/BT.

Kara giving more badges than BT just seems silly to me.

It would be to limit inflation on number of badges needed for an item. The idea of this whole process seems to be leveling the playing field so I think it's unlikely they'll add 3+ BoJ per boss kills at the high end instances. 1-2 seems reasonable considering that a BT/MH guild would likely be able to kill more bosses per week.

wow · 02/16/08, 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Pretty much. And let's be realistic here. In no way whatsoever would it cheapen the "integrity" of PvP for a raider to turn in a token after months of raiding for a "free" PvP piece, as compared to someone buying 1000 points a week for some gold or losing games a week.

I'm not so deluded, however, that I think for a moment that this won't cause a huge shitstorm, with PvPers wanting to buy t6 gear with arena points.

Do you really think the shitstorm isn't warranted? I can use the same logic as you can and say that I can buy my way into a raid for t6 tokens (after 2.4), and that buying t6 via arena points would give them a use once I have all the arena gear. If T6 is going to buy S2 afterall then whatever, but if it buys S3 do you really, honestly believe it's fair at all that this only goes one way?

Lithose · 02/16/08, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by wow

Do you really think the shitstorm isn't warranted? I can use the same logic as you can and say that I can buy my way into a raid for t6 tokens (after 2.4), and that buying t6 via arena points would give them a use once I have all the arena gear. If T6 is going to buy S2 afterall then whatever, but if it buys S3 do you really, honestly believe it's fair at all that this only goes one way?

Yes, for all the reasons that have been described ad nauseum on this board and most other raid sites about the lack of balance between PvP investment and PvE.

In the end "S3" arena gear still isn't tradeable, only the BG stuff..However, if those t5 sunwell tokens are tantamount to "free" BG gear, then by all means, I would encourage the PvP guys to go get their free PvP gear, its right there, lying in sunwell.

Prinsesa · 02/16/08, 8:43 AM

Kara giving more badges than BT just seems silly to me.

It doesn't seem so silly if you factor in how many times a BT-level guild runs Kara. These are, in effect, free Badges, since you don't have to go out of your way to acquire them.

• Chasy · 02/16/08, 8:59 AM

I don't see how any of the new loot will be purchasable by anything but BoJ's, which is utterly retarded.
I feel properly screwed over when Retard Joe who's wiping in Karazhan can buy nearly the same gear from a BoJ vendor, when I have invested a lot more time and effort in bringing 24 other people to defeat raid bosses.

◊ Cadfael · 02/16/08, 9:06 AM

Originally Posted by Chasy

I don't see how any of the new loot will be purchasable by anything but BoJ's, which is utterly retarded.
I feel properly screwed over when Retard Joe who's wiping in Karazhan can buy nearly the same gear from a BoJ vendor, when I have invested a lot more time and effort in bringing 24 other people to defeat raid bosses.

I don't. He (Retard Joe) is still not seeing BT or Hyjal nor SP. He's not defeating bosses there. I raid for defeating bosses, not to get shiny epics. You ?

Wotlk will come and all our equip will be replaced somewhen when we're all level 80. So what gives?

• Playered · 02/16/08, 9:06 AM

Originally Posted by ildon

Why do this, though? Why not just make the items slightly lower ilvl, with balanced stats?

They did this with the ZA Patch which made quite alot of badge gear/10man totally destroy T5 and also some T6 items while being a lower ilvl soley because they were near perfectly itemized.
Having the less optimally itemized items being from badges (available to general public) and potentially the niche items too, while having the majority of the min/maxed ideal stat distributed items from raiding allows the raiding to not feel as pointless due to superior, lower level loot.

gia · 02/16/08, 9:12 AM

Originally Posted by Chasy

I don't see how any of the new loot will be purchasable by anything but BoJ's, which is utterly retarded.
I feel properly screwed over when Retard Joe who's wiping in Karazhan can buy nearly the same gear from a BoJ vendor, when I have invested a lot more time and effort in bringing 24 other people to defeat raid bosses.

I feel properly screwed over when Retard Joe who can't get 1600 rating can buy the same gladiator gear from a vendor, when I have invested a lot more time and effort and yet all he did was bring 24 other people to defeat a raid boss.

Honestly though I don't feel this change is too bad, more choice is always a good thing, my only issues are in the details, I hope s3 shoulders still have a rating requirement to buy even if you have a token for them, it wouldn't be fair otherwise. I also hope that s4 comes shortly after and that it won't be obtainable by raiding.

vorda · 02/16/08, 9:18 AM

when I have invested a lot more time and effort and yet all he did was bring 24 other people to defeat a raid boss.

Let's please not go there...

Can we not get this topic derailed in some new PvE vs PvP crap? As it stands now, t6 is still just s2 items, which doesnt mess up anything for anyone. Lets not get a new discussion started on wild assumptions.

• Argium · 02/16/08, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by gia

I feel properly screwed over when Retard Joe who can't get 1600 rating can buy the same gladiator gear from a vendor, when I have invested a lot more time and effort and yet all he did was bring 24 other people to defeat a raid boss.

Honestly though I don't feel this change is too bad, more choice is always a good thing, my only issues are in the details, I hope s3 shoulders still have a rating requirement to buy even if you have a token for them, it wouldn't be fair otherwise. I also hope that s4 comes shortly after and that it won't be obtainable by raiding.

The season 3 gear isn't available from the vendor I'm assming for the reason you just mentioned (personal rating). It's probably being discussed internally about how to implement it but I can see them keeping that requirement on the shoulders.