I've read bits of this thread and felt similar concerns about the new "badge" loot of BT-equivalent item levels. I'm a little concerned that the actual value of this gear is being vastly overstated in this thread. I decided to run numbers through my spreadsheet to get a real idea of how good (or bad) these items will be in their current data-mined form (as they pertain to raiding destro warlocks).
I agree. My gear is in no way full tier 6 quality yet and I still have not one item from badge rewards introduced in patch 2.4 on my wish list. They have either +hit or +crit or +haste only, too little sockets or too much spirit lowering the useful stats too much. But I think it is a very nice addition, because people that do not raid tier 5/6 instances can get very powerful gear for the expansion. Raiders in late tier 5 and in tier 6 instances can spend their badges on primal nethers/vortexes to gear up alts! (Or sell them to cut on consumable farming time).
I believe this is what happens if all people go by bosskillers and co. You can down Magtheridon with 0 warlocks at all. Warlocks are not required. But everyone believes that you need at least 3, better 4 or 5 before even attempting it. Just because Warlocks have the most convenient one since the mobtype is demon, does not mean that you absolutely need to have a metric ton of Warlocks there.
I think your glasses are a little rose tinted. Who said bringing 2-3 warlocks per raid is 'a metric ton'? As you said there are abilities that can be used on infernals by other classes but some of these are unreliable, risky or just make other parts of the fight harder indirectly (taking DPS off channelers meaning less channelers killed by phase 2 , etc). Trying to prove a point that 'its possible' to do it with less, making it vastly more difficult than necessary - is like trying to walk with one leg when you have two. (This is in reference to the originals versions when they oneshot people)
GM messages in 2.4 come with the new fontstring textures (as in, you get a little blizzard icon in the chat frame), so either that wasnt implemented on PTR yet, or the screenshot's a fake.
GM messages in 2.4 come with the new fontstring textures (as in, you get a little blizzard icon in the chat frame), so either that wasnt implemented on PTR yet, or the screenshot's a fake.
Considering the GM used the term "there" to reference the PTR, you could assume this question was asked by someone on Live.
I think your glasses are a little rose tinted. Who said bringing 2-3 warlocks per raid is 'a metric ton'? As you said there are abilities that can be used on infernals by other classes but some of these are unreliable, risky or just make other parts of the fight harder indirectly (taking DPS off channelers meaning less channelers killed by phase 2 , etc). Trying to prove a point that 'its possible' to do it with less, making it vastly more difficult than necessary - is like trying to walk with one leg when you have two. (This is in reference to the originals versions they they oneshot people)
They never actually one-shot people and everyone they might have attacked had a way to make em go away. And between 3+ locks just standing there doing pretty much no dps and 1-2 running around, dotting and some of the other dps sometimes having to do a bit of CC I'd go with option 2. Plus you got tanks freed up from adds that could hadle infernals very very well.
When I first killed him the first things shouted were always "locks' fault, they din't ..." but after some shouting back that we can't be everywhere everytime and they had to handle it for a few seconds people started to actually pay attention to their own CC means and suddenly things went a lot better. And we still didn't use any other dps CC, just healers, tanks that freed up, but we had 2 locks. And contrary to popular opinion CC is not that unreliable, at least no more than fear.
They never actually one-shot people and everyone they might have attacked had a way to make em go away.
I remember them doing 4-5k on cloth before 2.1, single crit was enough to kill tier 4 geared clothie, if you included fireblast it was over 10k damage. 5% chance only, sure, but it was more or less possible to be one shotted.
Question to people who killed Rage/Najentus, did they drop so much gold as well? Or was that reserved for "end" bosses. 15-20g per head sounds quite profitable.
Well 3gems per week aren't going to make a world of difference I think, but yea it's a nice plus. That's still an insane boost to maghteridon viability, 3gems, 20g per person, 3badges and a 20slot bag, plus the usual loots, so the head, 3 T4tokens and whatever maghteridon drops which gets turned into 2-4LPS.
Also, if you're past needing mag it means 3 arena chests per kill for anyone wanting to start a pvp set (or bring some alts for them). PvP gear probably wouldn't have been enought to make BT guilds go to mag again, but with the other changes it's a nice bonus.
Has anyone else noticed a slight dps cloth disparity in 2.4? There seems to be slight confusion regarding where item budget should be spent.
I can see that Blizz perhaps are trying to distinguish between two types of DPS Cloth wearers. For the sake of argument, let's split them into Spirit and non-Spirit wearers.
Let's look at the classes we're reffering to then:
Spirit users: (ie. spirit can be valuable mainly as regen)
Possibly Arcane mages .
Possibly Shadowpriests in 2.4 and beyond.
Non-Spirit users: (ie. gain negligible/no regen from spirit)
Any Warlock.
Fire/Frost Mage.
The latter two who arguably benefit next to nothing from spirit both suffer from requiring a large amount of hit rating from gear. For destrolocks 202, for afflis likewise to cap SB and for mages 164 or 126 given the frostbolt bug. Incidentally, it is arguable that Arcane Mages and Spriests gain less from Haste than Destrolocks or Fire/Frost mages, though Affli Locks are an exception hence don't form part of this itemisation trend.
The former two both gain 10% in their primary school from talents, meaning they need at most 82~ hit rate to cap out.
Why then, does all the cloth DPS gear with HIT on it include spirit, and all the cloth DPS gear without hit NOT have any spirit? Why does the gear with Spi on have all the Haste, when it's value is diminished for both Spriests and Arcane mages (as it does not affect DPCT for the former and ruins mana efficiency as well as hits 1sec GCD cap for the latter given raid-haste buffs for the latter). Contrarily, the Destrolocks and the Fire/Frost mages have 100% benefit from haste as they chain-cast direct damage spells and the intervals between their spells are irrelevant as 5SR doesn't figure for them at all.
Doesn't it seem a lot more sensible to combine Sta/Int/Spi gear with Crit/Spell and Sta/Int gear with Hit/Spell/Haste? I really think this is a case of the original intention being such but somewhere along the way from the Dev Meeting with the item-designers to the PTR it got horribly muddled.
Has anyone else noticed a slight dps cloth disparity in 2.4? There seems to be slight confusion regarding where item budget should be spent.
I can see that Blizz perhaps are trying to distinguish between two types of DPS Cloth wearers. For the sake of argument, let's split them into Spirit and non-Spirit wearers.
Let's look at the classes we're reffering to then:
Spirit users: (ie. spirit can be valuable mainly as regen)
Possibly Arcane mages .
Possibly Shadowpriests in 2.4 and beyond.
Non-Spirit users: (ie. gain negligible/no regen from spirit)
Any Warlock.
Fire/Frost Mage.
The latter two who arguably benefit next to nothing from spirit both suffer from requiring a large amount of hit rating from gear. For destrolocks 202, for afflis likewise to cap SB and for mages 164 or 126 given the frostbolt bug. Incidentally, it is arguable that Arcane Mages and Spriests gain less from Haste than Destrolocks or Fire/Frost mages, though Affli Locks are an exception hence don't form part of this itemisation trend.
The former two both gain 10% in their primary school from talents, meaning they need at most 82~ hit rate to cap out.
Why then, does all the cloth DPS gear with HIT on it include spirit, and all the cloth DPS gear without hit NOT have any spirit? Why does the gear with Spi on have all the Haste, when it's value is diminished for both Spriests and Arcane mages (as it does not affect DPCT for the former and ruins mana efficiency as well as hits 1sec GCD cap for the latter given raid-haste buffs for the latter). Contrarily, the Destrolocks and the Fire/Frost mages have 100% benefit from haste as they chain-cast direct damage spells and the intervals between their spells are irrelevant as 5SR doesn't figure for them at all.
Doesn't it seem a lot more sensible to combine Sta/Int/Spi gear with Crit/Spell and Sta/Int gear with Hit/Spell/Haste? I really think this is a case of the original intention being such but somewhere along the way from the Dev Meeting with the item-designers to the PTR it got horribly muddled.
I'm going to explain this away with "Blizzard's itemization team doesn't really look at the mechanics of DPS as much as all the theorycrafters do". There are tons of pieces out there that are just plain poorly itemized. I mean just look at all the feral sets with int on them. The ~2k mana you get from it is somewhat useful in cat form for shiting/healing but almost completely useless when tanking. The points could EASILY have more effect being expertise, defense, dodge rating etc. The point being almost no gear is PERFECTLY itemized. Some are downright bad simply because Blizzard's "vision" of what a class should do/be doesn't really fall into line with what a class ACTUALLY does or needs.
Just take a look at enha shaman sets, amount of leather hunters/shaman are wearing is a very good sign of bad knowledge. Look at bow speeds, at amount of paladin tank weapons, look at disparity between some of the new t7 mail and plate healing items. At all the melee daggers while caster swords/dagger would be very nice and would actually get a use at least for offspec, as opposed to melee daggers.
As for feral, I'll just complain of the lack of a decent Earthwarden copy for t6-t7 or anywhere after SSC, having to use pvp gear for best dps and crit capping.
I think you may be mis-remembering how difficulty scaled in the old raids. Razorgore was arguably easier than Ragnaros, then Vael was harder than the 4 bosses that followed him. The first 4 bosses in AQ40 were easier than Nefarian. The first 6-8 bosses in Naxx were easier than C'Thun, and Raz/Anub were easier than Twin Emps, even. If anything, the TBC difficulty curve feels smoother to me, up until T6. Mag->Hydross feels right, Kael->Rage is what's wonky.
Yeah, I know - not very reliable source to base anything of, but anyone heard anything similar?
Whoa whoa whoa...! I hope this isn't true. I mean, wtf man??? Thank you for taking away the only stun I had (Tauren) as a shaman. Now when i want to warstomp to get away, I cant. When I want to warstomp to prevent that stupid paladin from saving his partner, I can't. When I want to warstomp to save my own partner, I cant. Thanks a lot Blizz, it was hard enough playing Enhance in arena as it is; now you have to take away an absolutely necessary skill. /wrist
Whoa whoa whoa...! I hope this isn't true. I mean, wtf man??? Thank you for taking away the only stun I had (Tauren) as a shaman. Now when i want to warstomp to get away, I cant. When I want to warstomp to prevent that stupid paladin from saving his partner, I can't. When I want to warstomp to save my own partner, I cant. Thanks a lot Blizz, it was hard enough playing Enhance in arena as it is; now you have to take away an absolutely necessary skill. /wrist
Yes, lord forbid they limit arena to class vs class balance, instead of racial/class vs racial/class balance.
It would be a positive/welcome change in my book, though again I'm not exactly a fan of racials.
Whoa whoa whoa...! I hope this isn't true. I mean, wtf man??? Thank you for taking away the only stun I had (Tauren) as a shaman. Now when i want to warstomp to get away, I cant. When I want to warstomp to prevent that stupid paladin from saving his partner, I can't. When I want to warstomp to save my own partner, I cant. Thanks a lot Blizz, it was hard enough playing Enhance in arena as it is; now you have to take away an absolutely necessary skill. /wrist
I have to agree... this would be really harsh on Tauren Shaman if this is true.
On the other hand, I can't say it's altogether unreasonable/unexpected as I have heard of people rerolling to more arenaworthy races. It just works out really badly for us in particular.
Hahaha, thats quite funny if its true and no one can really honestly complain about it due to classes of difference races not having the same abilities.
An interesting way to tweak the power of racials in general however and I'll avoid the rant about PvP aspect fixes too, ah time will tell if it gets implemented, GMs rarely know what they are talking about anyway.
Well considering that only Tauren shamans get this perk, I don't think its that big a deal. Why should a lock/rogue team completely kick your butt if they're undead but not if they're alliance? Or dwarf priest/hunter? Racials I agree do add flavor, but its gotten to the point where it is a pretty big imbalance. It wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard did this, although the word of a gm isn't something I'd take on it.
There is a somewhat bigger question on my mind. If the "Disable racials in Arena" is true, then will it be just the activated racials (War Stomp, WotF, Shadowmeld, etc.) or will it also include PASSIVE ones as well? (resistance bonuses, The Human Spirit, Tauren health bonus, etc.).
If the former, it makes some classes and specs unplayable in the areas (Enh. shaman sans War Stomp is a good one)
If the latter, then we will see the rise of gnomes in arenas, since the only reason to pick a specific race now would be the size of the character model.
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
No one can possibly argue that disabling all racials would be unfair. By definition it is fair. Unfair is having to level a new PvP character of the same class because of an arbitrary choice made years ago.
02/18/08, 6:59 AM
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