Racials have no place in PvP, true. The flipside of disabling them only in PvP, though, is that classes with exclusively PvP-oriented racials suddenly become much less powerful. Dwarf spriests, for example, would become the worst Alliance race for our class by far - we're the only race of the four that doesn't have a PvE-oriented ability.
Personally, I think racials should be removed entirely, or players should be allowed to choose them in something like the same way they choose talents.
Originally Posted by Praetorian
No one can possibly argue that disabling all racials would be unfair. By definition it is fair. Unfair is having to level a new PvP character of the same class because of an arbitrary choice made years ago.
Unfair is having to level a new PvE character because your race has nothing extra to offer in PvE, while another race of priest has an AE mana return spell, an additional DoT, etc.
Personally, I think racials should be removed entirely, or players should be allowed to choose them in something like the same way they choose talents.
Would there be anyone who wouldn't choose 5% health and WotF in that case?
I'd pick 5% health, sword/axe spec, and diplomacy :p.
At least the "Better" tank racials are somewhat balanced. Yeah, 5% health is probably the best, but it's damn nice as a human to get the extra expertise from a sword and a mace, and Diplomacy is damn nice too. Same for Orc with and stun resist and axe spec.
Would there be anyone who wouldn't choose 5% health and WotF in that case?
This is going on a huge tangent for the thread, but I like my solution so much that I'll post it here anyway.
(1) Put all activated racials (Stoneform, WotF, War Stomp, etc.) on the same three-minute cooldown.
(2) Remove all racial abilities from everyone. Instead, have a menu where you can buy abilities with "skill points". "Fluff" passive abilities (Wisp Form, Find Treasure, etc.) cost one skill point. "Good" passive abilities (Inspiring Presence, weapon specs, etc.) cost two skill points. Activated racials cost three skill points. A 1% boost to a base stat costs 1 skill point, another 1% costs 2 skill points, and the final 1% costs 3 skill points. These are the only things you can buy.
(3) You get one skill point every five levels.
(4) You can respec for a fee comparable to the cost of a talent respec.
That's it. Naturally, more tweaks need to be made, certain abilities need to be reworked/recosted, and Priest racials need to be handled seperately, but that's the gist of it. You respec your racials in the same way you respec your talents. Stacking stats is discouraged via diminishing returns, and stacking activated abilities is discouraged via a shared coolodown. Simple!
Just allowing Draenei to pick which aura to have would be a very welcome change. Its not that I don't have a use for the spell hit, but being in a melee group all the time (doubly so as enhancement), it'd be nice to have the melee aura.
Would there be anyone who wouldn't choose 5% health and WotF in that case?
I think most healers would go for shadowmeld, especially with drinking changes, it's the only decent way to get mana back. Perception for rogues is also quite interesting, Escape artist for warriors. Also a warstomp+mana torrent combo would make an interesting caster locking build. Overall, there's more possibilities than just going for one more anti fear and 5% health. But straight out removing all racials would balance arenas more. The issue really is how they envisionned racials(a small perk that would make each race different, without being overpowered) and how it ended. Currently there's definitely stronger races for most classes on both sides. And some are the weakest all over(yay trolls ^^).
At least the "Better" tank racials are somewhat balanced. Yeah, 5% health is probably the best, but it's damn nice as a human to get the extra expertise from a sword and a mace, and Diplomacy is damn nice too. Same for Orc with and stun resist and axe spec.
Some races just get screwed though...
At least we Night Elf warriors will always have world PvP.
That and murdering squishies grabbing "undefended" flags.
oh it would be an amazing change to remove racials from arenas even if just activated ones. The AoE silence, stun, WoTF, and shadowmeld/drink is so annoyingly game changing at times it's frustrating.
If they let passive stats stay but kill the activated ones, there will still be racial imbalance. it just won't be the way it currently is. Forsaken sans WotF and Cannibalize, for example, have no major passives (other than 10 SR, but let's be honest here...). However, an Orc without Blood Fury still has Stun resist and Axe specialization.
If they want race to be a moot point in Arena setting, then all racials (active and passive alike) have to be disabled, plus everyone's character model changes to Human. Otherwise, there are always going to be things that make specific race/class choices better or worse than others.
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
While it admittedly is fair for arena purposes to remove racials, it kind of screws those of us who picked our racials for pvp over in pve, where the good pve races would still have their advantage, while ours would be gone. True, berserking probably isn't as big a deal in pve as wotf is in pvp, but it is more than nothing.
Wotf (Archi), escape artist (Vashj) and the other pvp bonuses are still quite useful in pve. I do like the idea of being able to pick and choose, that would open a nice game.
.. all of this talk about the balancing effect of removing racials from arenas (and the further discussion of what it would be like if you could choose your racials) is way off-topic, especially given that it's discussion over a dubious screenshot of a GM conversation. Until we know more about the change I think we should keep things on-topic.
I find it extremely unlikely that they would not have announced that change while allowing in game GMs (who are notoriously bad at giving insight into developers decisions) to discuss it.
Beserking/blood fury then axe/sword/mace expertise depending on what my wep is at the time, "respec" to diplomacy when xpac hits for rep grinds.
How would this effect Paladins with seal of blood/ally version (Vengenace I think?)
Or the abomination that is Priest Racial spells?
Regardless of what they do and don't 'disable' in arenas, I'm tempted to believe that this could actually happen. Blizzard has repeatedly said that arena balance is something they care for, and racials (regardless of what racial you *think* you need) do change the balance of arenas. I'm sure we've all lost to teams solely because warstomp will always allow a druid to escape when they're about to die, or because WotF makes your priest unable to escape, or because your undead rogue got sap'd via perception. The point is, if Blizzard *really* wants this to be an 'e-sport' than balancing based on uncontrollable (from the perspective of team composition) racials is near impossible.
As it is, they've slowly been toning down the impact of racials for a long time. Remember pre-BC's weapon skill racial? I honestly considered, as a Night Elf dps warrior, getting daggers and all those bizarre +dagger skill leather gear, because that's the only thing that would put me on even ground with human weapon skill racial. The changed Fear Ward (though Chastise is even better in PvP. argh). This fits the theme.
This is going on a huge tangent for the thread, but I like my solution so much that I'll post it here anyway.
(1) Put all activated racials (Stoneform, WotF, War Stomp, etc.) on the same three-minute cooldown.
(2) Remove all racial abilities from everyone. Instead, have a menu where you can buy abilities with "skill points". "Fluff" passive abilities (Wisp Form, Find Treasure, etc.) cost one skill point. "Good" passive abilities (Inspiring Presence, weapon specs, etc.) cost two skill points. Activated racials cost three skill points. A 1% boost to a base stat costs 1 skill point, another 1% costs 2 skill points, and the final 1% costs 3 skill points. These are the only things you can buy.
(3) You get one skill point every five levels.
(4) You can respec for a fee comparable to the cost of a talent respec.
That's it. Naturally, more tweaks need to be made, certain abilities need to be reworked/recosted, and Priest racials need to be handled seperately, but that's the gist of it. You respec your racials in the same way you respec your talents. Stacking stats is discouraged via diminishing returns, and stacking activated abilities is discouraged via a shared coolodown. Simple!
Please, no more respec costs, I'm fine with the whole idea of being able to select your racials, I'm fine with the idea of being able to change them, but if I all of a sudden had to spend 200 gold per week at a minimum just to be able to pvp and pve effectively because pvpers were upset about racials, I would be furious. I think forced respec costs are a big enough hassle and don't belong in the game as is, but doubling the cost over racials? Please no.
Please, no more respec costs, I'm fine with the whole idea of being able to select your racials, I'm fine with the idea of being able to change them, but if I all of a sudden had to spend 200 gold per week at a minimum just to be able to pvp and pve effectively because pvpers were upset about racials, I would be furious. I think forced respec costs are a big enough hassle and don't belong in the game as is, but doubling the cost over racials? Please no.
Its not just about PvPers being upset, its just that its a more sensitive area for Blizz if it attempts to make WoW and eSport. Several races have abilties which really enhance their PvE performance too depending on their class, I wont list them but im sure you can guess (not to mention having Diplomacy for rep grinding at first).
Its not just about PvPers being upset, its just that its a more sensitive area for Blizz if it attempts to make WoW and eSport. Several races have abilties which really enhance their PvE performance too depending on their class, I wont list them but im sure you can guess (not to mention having Diplomacy for rep grinding at first).
I fully agree racials are imbalanced, but until arena people understood that and it wasn't a huge imbalance, I fully have no problem in removing racials from pvp, wouldn't bother me, I love my racials, I actually rolled this class because of racials (I used to be horde) but at this point the majority of complaints are centered around pvp, and if I have to spend another 100 gold a week because of it I am going to be upset is all.
Mostly I'm commenting because I like every other part of that post except for the idea of forcing me to spend 200 gold per week to actually play the game, so other than that, I've got no problems with the ideas for changing racials.
02/18/08, 1:47 PM
Similar Threads
