On the topic of the new badge rewards being easy T6 equiv, my suggestion to blizzard looked something like this:
How would you guys feel about having the new 2.4 badge rewards only available to players with the "Hand of Ad'al" title?
I think that this would be the most fair route, since it would require at least a bit of playing the game outside of 5-mans and kara to get gear.
How do you guys feel about this idea?
Blizzard has made it pretty clear they're not interested in ideas like that. Go read WoW BlueTracker: 150 Badges for 2.4 Items = Grind Intensifies They say, and I agree, that the high cost of the items in badges is sufficient to limit them to "less casual" people.
Really, think about the math on this. A single new weapon costs 150 badges. That's eight weeks of full Karazhan clears. Wrath of the Lich King will be out long before "non-raiders" get more than two pieces of the new badge gear.
The ret items are clearly overitemized. The 78 passive expertise on the 3 pieces should scream that to begin with.
Along with the Druid pieces this doesn't really surprise me that there would be multiple oversights (as opposed to having it limited to just one class). The inconsistency keeps showing up, meaning that in all likeliness most of these pieces are going to be changing multiple times before the patch goes live, so I'm reserving judgment until I see what the final product(s) are.
On the topic of the new badge rewards being easy T6 equiv, my suggestion to blizzard looked something like this:
How would you guys feel about having the new 2.4 badge rewards only available to players with the "Hand of Ad'al" title?
I think that this would be the most fair route, since it would require at least a bit of playing the game outside of 5-mans and kara to get gear.
How do you guys feel about this idea?
No.
Beyond my immediate rejection since I likely won't have this title in 2.4, you're just going to have to realize that there is no compelling reason to arbitrarily limit badge gear that is less useful/powerful than real raiding loot to people that can buy it. The items are all poorly itemized on purpose and the weapons (for the most part) are worse than raid drops.
Furthermore, arguing over who ought to have access to gear is rediculous in the first place. If your positions were reversed, I think you'd see how inane this suggestion is.
On the topic of the new badge rewards being easy T6 equiv, my suggestion to blizzard looked something like this:
How would you guys feel about having the new 2.4 badge rewards only available to players with the "Hand of Ad'al" title?
I think that this would be the most fair route, since it would require at least a bit of playing the game outside of 5-mans and kara to get gear.
How do you guys feel about this idea?
First, the rewards aren't really equivalent to T6. This was covered a while back, the iLvl is high but the items don't have optimal point allocations.
Second, the entire point of making that gear available for BoJ is so that more players can gear up and (hopefully) experience content. Any other path to the gear makes it exclusive, and while it may not be "fair" to offer great items in exchange for running old content that appears to be the path Blizzard has chosen.
And finally, I don't like the idea because I think it's a wonderful way to gear up alts/encourage more players to try out 25-man raiding.
On the topic of the new badge rewards being easy T6 equiv, my suggestion to blizzard looked something like this:
How would you guys feel about having the new 2.4 badge rewards only available to players with the "Hand of Ad'al" title?
I think that this would be the most fair route, since it would require at least a bit of playing the game outside of 5-mans and kara to get gear.
How do you guys feel about this idea?
One of the best ideas I have heard in a long time, or double the cost if you don't have the title unlocked.
Sure non-raiders would cry, but there would be ZERO reason to skip Vashj/kael and that makes me for one very happy as they are two of the most enjoyable fights in TBC. Or at least halve the cost for those with the title because they are the only ones who will be using the gear in any capacity besides fast badge farming.
So I was thinking about the moronic removal of stamina from all new T6 pieces, and was trying to come up with another solution. The best I was able to come of with was the changing the PvE 4 pieces bonus to a 5 piece bonus.
There is a small window where this would be a nerf (i.e. when you have 4 pieces, but not 5), but in the end it is business as usual.
Seems to be to be a much better solution that the current one. Thoughts?
The most obvious solution to me is: To make the honor gear also have a set bonus and making it far far far superior to the t6 bonus in a pvp setting.
The most obvious solution to me is: To make the honor gear also have a set bonus and making it far far far superior to the t6 bonus in a pvp setting.
Trinket/boots/belt/bracers = 1 min cd cc trinket? (would be a small buff to resto shamans and holy paladins in small scale pvp in my opinion, and they need it)
I don't understand why this is bad, you can use both gear with lots of stamina and gear without. Look at the DPS increase you get from the removal of the stamina, that is a huge increase and unless you are using every bit of your stamina to stay alive it is a DPS waste on an item.
Edit - In fact if you really feel like you are missing out on stamina you can gem in solid stars which takes huge pressure off the spinel supply.
I'm using every bit of stamina to stay alive on progression content; prolonging attempts is quite valuable, and easing the strain on healers while everyone learns new fights shouldn't be discounted. I shouldn't need to socket tank gems to make up for Blizzard's knee-jerk reaction to raiding gear unbalancing Arenas.
(Yes, I move out of the fire.)
Please understand, I'm not expecting awesome DPS stats plus a ton of stamina, just throw 10 to 20 STA on each item (so that all 3 items give 40 to 50 STA) and rebalance accordingly. If Blizzard wants to make glass cannon hunter gear, make some non-set pieces for that - or, better yet, make some 3-piece sets with interesting PvE bonuses.
Ask yourself this: if you had the three new T6 pieces, would you wear them for Naj'entus instead of what you have now?
Is it really that difficult to disable a tiered set bonuses while in a battleground/arena? Alter the tooltip text to indicate it, as well. Then they won't have to reitemize gear, remove stamina, invent negative resilience, and/or otherwise do extra work to curtail an imbalance.
That is what I'm wondering, too. It would be a much tighter fit to the problem.
Originally Posted by Kalince
I don't understand why this is bad, you can use both gear with lots of stamina and gear without. Look at the DPS increase you get from the removal of the stamina, that is a huge increase and unless you are using every bit of your stamina to stay alive it is a DPS waste on an item.
Edit - In fact if you really feel like you are missing out on stamina you can gem in solid stars which takes huge pressure off the spinel supply.
And I don't understand why people keep trying to argue this silly point. In many cases if you gem for stamina as opposed to standard PVE damage stats the new Tier 6 pieces become worse or, at best, sidegrades to BT/Hyjal drops. That is not true across the board but it is still true. Warlocks and DPS warriors saying, 'I don't get it, what's the problem.' are being myopic.
Last edited by Metrosexuelf : 02/21/08 at 6:17 PM.
Just downed Brutallus Version 4 - the changes have really made this a lot more like the 'Ultimate' fight; seems like a fantastic benchmark fight for every class - DPS, tanks and Healers all have to be playing at their best.
Blizzard have done incredibly well on this encounter imo, gief more.
I'm using every bit of stamina to stay alive on progression content; prolonging attempts is quite valuable, and easing the strain on healers while everyone learns new fights shouldn't be discounted. I shouldn't need to socket tank gems to make up for Blizzard's knee-jerk reaction to raiding gear unbalancing Arenas.
(Yes, I move out of the fire.)
Please understand, I'm not expecting awesome DPS stats plus a ton of stamina, just throw 10 to 20 STA on each item (so that all 3 items give 40 to 50 STA) and rebalance accordingly. If Blizzard wants to make glass cannon hunter gear, make some non-set pieces for that - or, better yet, make some 3-piece sets with interesting PvE bonuses.
Ask yourself this: if you had the three new T6 pieces, would you wear them for Naj'entus instead of what you have now?
How is an item with 30 less agi but 45 more stam with 3 sockets any different than an item with 45 less stam and 30 more agi with 3 sockets? If you NEED stamina socket and enchant Stamina! The fact is most classes carry 2-3-4 k more health then they need into raids because the gear is so bloated with stam.
As a small bonus every "tank" gem used is one more spinel available to the rest of the guild.
I'm using every bit of stamina to stay alive on progression content; prolonging attempts is quite valuable, and easing the strain on healers while everyone learns new fights shouldn't be discounted. I shouldn't need to socket tank gems to make up for Blizzard's knee-jerk reaction to raiding gear unbalancing Arenas.
(Yes, I move out of the fire.)
Please understand, I'm not expecting awesome DPS stats plus a ton of stamina, just throw 10 to 20 STA on each item (so that all 3 items give 40 to 50 STA) and rebalance accordingly. If Blizzard wants to make glass cannon hunter gear, make some non-set pieces for that - or, better yet, make some 3-piece sets with interesting PvE bonuses.
Ask yourself this: if you had the three new T6 pieces, would you wear them for Naj'entus instead of what you have now?
Given that I currently wear Softstep Boots of Tracking and Boneweave Girdle in two of those slots - neither of which has any stamina, and both of which are currently best-in-slot options prior to Sunwell - yes. Do you refuse to use the Supremus neck over Worgen's Claw Choker because it has no stamina? Of course not.
While I can understand holy priests with spell hit being frustrated by this change, this is pure positive for most DPS classes in most situations. Might you be better served with higher stamina gear for some fights? Of course. But best-in-slot doesn't always mean best for every fight.
How is an item with 30 less agi but 45 more stam with 3 sockets any different than an item with 45 less stam and 30 more agi with 3 sockets? If you NEED stamina socket and enchant Stamina! The fact is most classes carry 2-3-4 k more health then they need into raids because the gear is so bloated with stam.
As a small bonus every "tank" gem used is one more spinel available to the rest of the guild.
Your example fails to match up with any of the gear being discussed.
Originally Posted by Elendril
Given that I currently wear Softstep Boots of Tracking and Boneweave Girdle in two of those slots - neither of which has any stamina, and both of which are currently best-in-slot options prior to Sunwell - yes. Do you refuse to use the Supremus neck over Worgen's Claw Choker because it has no stamina? Of course not.
While I can understand holy priests with spell hit being frustrated by this change, this is pure positive for most DPS classes in most situations. Might you be better served with higher stamina gear for some fights? Of course. But best-in-slot doesn't always mean best for every fight.
I absolutely agree that best-in-slot isn't best in EVERY situation. I am annoyed at and puzzled by the shift in stat allocation. The DPS check appears to be the 2nd boss in Sunwell, so I can't imagine that PTR testing has indicated getting your one Tier item buffed will be the difference between killing Brutallus and wiping at 1%.
It's probably a moot point anyway, I doubt that hunter gear is going to get STA put back on.
Last edited by Galred : 02/21/08 at 6:08 PM.
Reason: Thread's moving faster than I am!
How would you guys feel about having the new 2.4 badge rewards only available to players with the "Hand of Ad'al" title?
I think that this would be the most fair route, since it would require at least a bit of playing the game outside of 5-mans and kara to get gear.
How do you guys feel about this idea?
Blizz wants these T6 level items to be easily accessible to casuals & alts and I do not have any issues with that. However I would like to see either of the following implemented.
a) Provide a discount on BoJ costs based on titles (eg 10% off for champion of the Naaru & 20% off for hand of Adal)
b) Up the number of badges dropped in 25 mans by 1 (ie normal bosses drop 3 & end bosses drop 4).
Really, think about the math on this. A single new weapon costs 150 badges. That's eight weeks of full Karazhan clears. Wrath of the Lich King will be out long before "non-raiders" get more than two pieces of the new badge gear.
8 weeks of full karazan clears would be 22x8 = 176 badges. You would only need to run 7 weeks to attain that amount of badges. ONLY RUNNING KARAZHAN.
This is assuming all you do is run Kara however. For players/characters that are in non-25man raiding guilds, this amount of badges would be able to be attained in 2-3 weeks. For players that ARE in 25mans with the additions of BOJ added to 25 man bosses, it could be even less. 3 badges per 25-man boss, for most SSC guilds (non-vashj) this + kara would be 40 badges a week. Hardly 7 weeks to attain a t6 equivalent weapon. This is also without running any 5-man heroic dungeons.
The point was not to argue over what WOTLK will and will not replace (loleverything), it was to discuss if you think this is a good idea or not, thanks.
I wanted to give everyone a head's up that we'll be disabling the Sunwell Raid zone on the PTR until we our next PTR patch (which will be very soon!).
We're applying a hotfix right now that will accomplish this.
The testing on the PTR has been excellent and we greatly appreciate all of the hard work you guys are doing. You're going to help us to make the zone great!
Kalecgos is close enough that we can finish off testing him internally at this point. Brutallus will get a minor change next patch (stomp removes burn). We'll do brief testing on him next patch and then disable him. Felmyst and the Eredar Twins both get major changes next patch. The oh-so-compelling, non-boss mobs also get a good deal of tuning in the next patch.
Thanks again and we'll see the Sunwell Raiding folks in a day or two!
Brutallus is going to be "the" fight to beat when it goes live, imo. Not a lot of PTR testing plus it is just plain hard, can't wait!
Blizz wants these T6 level items to be easily accessible to casuals & alts and I do not have any issues with that. However I would like to see either of the following implemented.
a) Provide a discount on BoJ costs based on titles (eg 10% off for champion of the Naaru & 20% off for hand of Adal)
b) Up the number of badges dropped in 25 mans by 1 (ie normal bosses drop 3 & end bosses drop 4).
I'm not seeing the reason raiders need to be able to buy gear inferior to gear they're getting in t6 for a lower cost than the more casualish player. If anything, I'd argue they have less to buy than the latter group so the badge cost is fine.
That is what I'm wondering, too. It would be a much tighter fit to the problem.
Since it's PVE gear, I think an even BETTER fit would be to have those set bonuses only enabled in PVE instances. Or make S4 boots/belt/bracers part of the S4 set, and give S4 another set bonus. Or make PVP gear a 3/5 or 4/6 bonus, and add the honor gear to the set.
It's ridiculous that feral druids go from a 2.3 patch where the best PVE DPS weapon in the game is only available in PVP (true since 2.1) and feral spec is terrible for PVP; to a 2.4 patch where PVP keeps PVE gear from being optimal for PVE (and results of PVP feral aren't exactly corrected). Throw out the fact that until a feral gets upgrades in each set slot, 2-piece tier 4 will still be optimal for DPS.
Seriously, isn't the logical solution to buff PVP sets in PVP rather than nerf PVE sets in both PVP and PVE?
Really, think about the math on this. A single new weapon costs 150 badges. That's eight weeks of full Karazhan clears. Wrath of the Lich King will be out long before "non-raiders" get more than two pieces of the new badge gear.
Your math does not take into account the 2+ month head start while 2.4 is on PTR. Any smart player should be able to stockpile badges and buy 1 or 2 items the very day 2.4 goes live.
When is blizzard going to realize haste is useless for warriors (in it's current incarnation) and stop putting it on our gear?
As soon as they realize that hunters do not really like 3.0+ speed ranged weapons in TBC...
About changed T6 pieces: it must be work-in-progress, just wait for new build.
About new BoJ gear (again?), here I will give you casual pov. I just do some arena to get points every week, daily quests, heroics if I am prot and Kara clear every week. If I look at rewards:
- 2h axe is nice but then I have S3 weapon and will get S4 weapon that will be better.
- Arms gear looks crap and I'll probably take S3/S4 instead. Well DPS ring is nice.
- Prot gear is sweet but then my tanking kit is good enough to easily tank full Karazhan not to mention heroics (and I still use dps shoulders and ring, blue chest and neck). 320 badges to upgrade my prot gear to make everything even easier? I'll probably pass.
Seriously everyone can now get fast and good items from honor, few BoJ PvE rewards are not game breaking (weapons are really nice and thats really it). I wish 2.4 changes and BoJ rewards was in game with 2.1 when I was still raiding.
02/21/08, 5:31 PM
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