Rawr (v2.3.23 released on 9/12) - Page 15

Astrylian · 03/11/08, 1:23 AM

Originally Posted by seminarca

Quick question on the bear model: have the calculations changed recently? Because I'm getting a pretty high valuation of Stamina, even though my recent gearing trends have shied away from avoidance towards higher armor/stamina .. which should theoretically lead to lower valuation of Stamina and higher valuation of Agility. Re: the following screenshot of my gem comparison:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/861/gemsgi5.jpg

It just seems quite off from what I've seen before.

Nope, that looks reasonable. It's looking that way because of the gearing trend you've been following. You've got it backwards... Gearing for more Stamina does not lead to a lower valuation of Stamina, it actually leads to a (relatively) higher valuation of Stamina.

Stamina scales linearly in value. No matter how much stamina you stack, adding more stamina will maintain the same value.
Agility (Dodge) scales exponentially in value. The more agility you've got, the more valuable more agility will be.

So if you've dropped alot of your agi for sta, sta is still the same value, agi is less valuable.

(Also, this isn't to say that stacking agi is always the right way to go; agi provides very bursty mitigation until you reach the pinnacle hit immunity, so you need more and more survivability as you progress in order to make use of your agility.)

Nathariel · 03/11/08, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by seminarca

Quick question on the bear model: have the calculations changed recently? Because I'm getting a pretty high valuation of Stamina, even though my recent gearing trends have shied away from avoidance towards higher armor/stamina .. which should theoretically lead to lower valuation of Stamina and higher valuation of Agility. Re: the following screenshot of my gem comparison:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/861/gemsgi5.jpg

It just seems quite off from what I've seen before.

There would be a couple of reasons for this.

Firstly because Agility gets better the more you have of it. As you get closer to 100% dodge, each point of agility will reduce incoming damage by a larger percentage

Secondly because of what buffs you have on. If you add the standard raid buffs to your character you will see agility move up the list a bit, but as your dodge percentage is still not super high it will not outvalue stamina.

I am in a partial threat set at the moment if you want to compare the values, but if I add my standard raid buffs and Grace of Air, Agility gems will eventually come out on top. Even with grace of air, you still have stamina on top.

seminarca · 03/11/08, 1:50 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Agility (Dodge) scales exponentially in value. The more agility you've got, the more valuable more agility will be.

Originally Posted by Nathariel

Firstly because Agility gets better the more you have of it. As you get closer to 100% dodge, each point of agility will reduce incoming damage by a larger percentage

That's pretty much what I was missing. I just had a huge double take on seeing Solid Azure Moonstone ranked higher than Shifting Nightseye that I couldn't help but wonder if you'd fiddled with the calculations in preparation of Sunwell (which reportedly has much higher survivability requirements than current content).

Originally Posted by Nathariel

Secondly because of what buffs you have on. If you add the standard raid buffs to your character you will see agility move up the list a bit, but as your dodge percentage is still not super high it will not outvalue stamina.

That screenshot was with raid buffs btw, but only the ones I have with 100% certainty (Fort/MotW/Kings/Elixirs/food). I typically don't run the bear model with group based stuff like Imp/Commanding/Devo/totems because that stuff has a tendency to vary a lot in between encounters.

Thanks for the replies.

Hrank · 03/11/08, 7:33 AM

I guess I'll try reloading. As things stand, the list of estimated pants values show:

Tempest Leggings (9 sd, 5 hit/2mp5, 5sd/4hit) as 16 damage and 4 efficiency and Moonglade as 13 damage and 13 efficiency. That indeed makes them an overall better item. Removing raid buffs still results in Moonglade rating higher overall than Tempest with just 1 less damage but 2 (or more depending on gems) more efficiency.

Using .2 latency and Cast Innervate on Self.

thedopefishlives · 03/11/08, 7:47 AM

Originally Posted by Saraya

I know that in general if you're running OOM in a fight, int, spirit, and mp5 are basically more valuable than any actual damage stat. I wasn't questoning this part. My question was because the items have an efficiency rating on top of the damage rating. So given an OOM before fight ends situation, the damage provided by a regen item will be higher, and on top of that, it will have an efficiency rating.

This means the "overall" rating will kind of get influenced by the mana regen twice: once by being able to cast longer and thus raising the damage gain from the item, and again by adding efficiency, or time to oom. This is why I said double dipping. This is my concern, since currently it makes regen items rank far higher than I'd expect. Hopefully you can clarify this for me. Thanks!

How would you go about it, then? I'm honestly asking, since I'm still sort of new to this whole thing. I just wanted to provide an accurate measure of DPS while also allowing players to sort by mana efficiency. I realize that mana efficiency is going to influence DPS, as well, but what should be done about it?

Hrank, this might explain what you're seeing too, I think. The lost damage from the Tempest Leggings is obviously overwhelmed by the increase in mana efficiency from the Moonglade Pants. At least you're seeing a DPS drop, which is correct.

Roywyn · 03/11/08, 8:12 AM

Suggestion for item value listing

The mage module lists the value of damage items as damage for the fight.
The warlock and moonkin module list them as DPS.

Now, while the DPS is a great number to compare items, it's too coarse for gems/gemming.
In the moonkin sheet, I have 5 gems at 5 DPS and 6 gems at 4 DPS. With some gems having 0, 1, 2 efficiency, those numbers are not fine enough to determine the best gems.

If 1 or 2 more digits could be displayed there in the warlock/moonkin spreadsheet, it would be great.
The mage sheet has numbers like 3000-5000 for gems (total damage difference) and I don't find the big numbers there irritating at all.

Just a thought.
And thank you for the awesome programme.

thedopefishlives · 03/11/08, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Suggestion for item value listing

The mage module lists the value of damage items as damage for the fight.
The warlock and moonkin module list them as DPS.

Now, while the DPS is a great number to compare items, it's too coarse for gems/gemming.
In the moonkin sheet, I have 5 gems at 5 DPS and 6 gems at 4 DPS. With some gems having 0, 1, 2 efficiency, those numbers are not fine enough to determine the best gems.

If 1 or 2 more digits could be displayed there in the warlock/moonkin spreadsheet, it would be great.
The mage sheet has numbers like 3000-5000 for gems (total damage difference) and I don't find the big numbers there irritating at all.

Just a thought.
And thank you for the awesome programme.

Thanks for the suggestion; I think that makes more sense. I'm still going to list DPS in the stats panel, though. Any suggestions for a mana efficiency stat? It needs to be something with a direct relationship to DPS (i.e. Mana Used isn't an option, because it's an inverse relationship).

Ice · 03/11/08, 9:19 AM

I tried Rawr b12.1 on linux with wine, installed Mono for Windows first.

fixme:win:EnumDisplayDevicesW ((null),0,0x61e4d4,0x00000000), stub!

Unhandled Exception: System.TypeInitializationException: An exception was thrown by the type initializer for System.Windows.Forms.WindowsFormsSynchronizationContext ---> System.TypeInitializationException: An exception was thrown by the type initializer for System.Windows.Forms.ThemeEngine ---> System.ArgumentException: The requested FontFamily could not be found [GDI+ status: FontFamilyNotFound]
  at System.Drawing.GDIPlus.CheckStatus (Status status) [0x00000] 
  at System.Drawing.FontFamily..ctor (GenericFontFamilies genericFamily) [0x00000] 
  at (wrapper remoting-invoke-with-check) System.Drawing.FontFamily:.ctor (System.Drawing.Text.GenericFontFamilies)
  at System.Drawing.FontFamily.get_GenericSansSerif () [0x00000] 
  at System.Drawing.Font.CreateFont (System.String familyName, Single emSize, FontStyle style, GraphicsUnit unit, Byte charSet, Boolean isVertical) [0x00000] 
  at System.Drawing.Font..ctor (System.String familyName, Single emSize, FontStyle style, GraphicsUnit unit, Byte charSet, Boolean isVertical) [0x00000] 
  at System.Drawing.Font..ctor (System.String familyName, Single emSize, System.String systemName) [0x00000] 
  at (wrapper remoting-invoke-with-check) System.Drawing.Font:.ctor (string,single,string)
  at System.Drawing.SystemFonts.get_DefaultFont () [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.Theme..ctor () [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.ThemeWin32Classic..ctor () [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.ThemeEngine..cctor () [0x00000] --- End of inner exception stack trace ---

  at System.Windows.Forms.XplatUIWin32.CreateWindow (System.Windows.Forms.CreateParams cp) [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.XplatUI.CreateWindow (System.Windows.Forms.CreateParams cp) [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.CreateHandle (System.Windows.Forms.CreateParams create_params) [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.Control.CreateHandle () [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.Control.CreateControl () [0x00000] 
  at (wrapper remoting-invoke-with-check) System.Windows.Forms.Control:CreateControl ()
  at System.Windows.Forms.WindowsFormsSynchronizationContext..cctor () [0x00000] --- End of inner exception stack trace ---

  at System.Windows.Forms.Control..ctor () [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.ScrollableControl..ctor () [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.ContainerControl..ctor () [0x00000] 
  at System.Windows.Forms.Form..ctor () [0x00000] 
  at Rawr.FormSplash..ctor () [0x00000] 
  at (wrapper remoting-invoke-with-check) Rawr.FormSplash:.ctor ()
  at Rawr.FormMain..ctor () [0x00000] 
  at (wrapper remoting-invoke-with-check) Rawr.FormMain:.ctor ()
  at Rawr.Program.Main () [0x00000]

Astrylian · 03/11/08, 11:22 AM

The scale the Rawr.Cat uses is DPS*100. So gems that are 5.67 dps show up as 567. That's another option.

As for how to report mana efficiency... That really doesn't matter, does it? What matters is how much damage you do. Seems like that should be the only damage-related rating. You can always display the mana regen, and the mana cost per second after regen for each rotation.

EDIT: Oh, and the exception just above this... Looks like it can't find any generic san serif font? I don't know why that would be unless there's a problem with GDI+ on Wine, or there really is no san serif font on your system somehow?

thedopefishlives · 03/11/08, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

The scale the Rawr.Cat uses is DPS*100. So gems that are 5.67 dps show up as 567. That's another option.

As for how to report mana efficiency... That really doesn't matter, does it? What matters is how much damage you do. Seems like that should be the only damage-related rating. You can always display the mana regen, and the mana cost per second after regen for each rotation.

EDIT: Oh, and the exception just above this... Looks like it can't find any generic san serif font? I don't know why that would be unless there's a problem with GDI+ on Wine, or there really is no san serif font on your system somehow?

Reporting mana efficiency isn't the problem, because I put it in the stats panel. The idea was to give people a way to rank gear based on mana efficiency, because for a moonkin, there is something to be said for mana efficiency. 30% of OO5SR regen while casting, plus 10% of your intellect as mp5, not to mention innervate, makes mana a fairly big topic for moonkin, as opposed to mages. I suppose, though, if mana efficiency still factors into the total damage done over the length of a fight, it still won't matter whether I give it a ranking option or not.

Astrylian · 03/11/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

I suppose, though, if mana efficiency still factors into the total damage done over the length of a fight, it still won't matter whether I give it a ranking option or not.

That's the key. What matters is how much damage you to. More regen gives you more mana to do more damage.

(And for the record, depending on spec, mages can get more regen than Moonkin; 45% instead of 30% of regen while casting, and int-based-evocation instead of dreamstate)

thedopefishlives · 03/11/08, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

That's the key. What matters is how much damage you to. More regen gives you more mana to do more damage.

(And for the record, depending on spec, mages can get more regen than Moonkin; 45% instead of 30% of regen while casting, and int-based-evocation instead of dreamstate)

Okay, so you got me there. An arcane mage and a boomkin probably have about the same level of concern for mana regen issues.

Back on topic, I've updated the Rawr.Moonkin module to only show damage done in the gear rankings window. DPS, DPM, and Time To OOM are all still displayed in the character stats display. Spell rotation is selected by highest average DPS, in order to match the moonkin DPS spreadsheet. If you want to find what item gives the most raw damage output, set the fight length to 1 minute, effectively nullifying mana regen issues.

Ice · 03/11/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

EDIT: Oh, and the exception just above this... Looks like it can't find any generic san serif font? I don't know why that would be unless there's a problem with GDI+ on Wine, or there really is no san serif font on your system somehow?

I have ie. DejaVu Sans,Dejavu Serif,FreeSans,FreeSerif installed (using Ubuntu 7.10, I haven't touched the fonts) Maybe I'll try to investigate more later.

Astrylian · 03/11/08, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ice

I have ie. DejaVu Sans,Dejavu Serif,FreeSans,FreeSerif installed (using Ubuntu 7.10, I haven't touched the fonts) Maybe I'll try to investigate more later.

I'm not familiar enough with Linux or Mono to be able to tell whether this is a user-specific problem with your system setup, or if this is a problem with Mono on Linux, or some compatibility issue with Rawr and Mono for Linux...

Mono has a tool that's supposed to help diagnose and solve problems like this, that I'm going to try to use on Rawr sometime soon. I'll let you all know how that goes.

Yoruiichi · 03/11/08, 3:59 PM

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not. Apologies if this is already known.

Hi Astrylian,

When selecting Warlock mode, then going to the Options tab, the word Sacrificed is misspelled as "Sacraficed"

I hope this helps.