Okay I should perhaps be more clear. What I guess I mean would be it would be great to be able to construct custom ratings as linear combinations of the other ratings (or in fact measurable things). The is certainly true for the bear, but considering your hp could be useful if you're dpsing. I guess the constraints do handle that a bit, but being able to display those other components side by side like we do with the inbuild total tanking rating would be nifty.
I played around with tanking gear a bit more, and it seems the balance between mitigation and survival ratings on items becomes a bit more normal with the late sunwell itemisation. Certainly the value of stamina vs agility got much closer to the easy to work with 1.5:1 ratio :P (ideal from an item value perspective).
After running the optimiser a few times with different design targets, I get a lot of superfluous gemmings floating around, perhaps I should just write a python script to clean up the item cache :P
"EDIT: Ivor, look at Kavan. Also, remember that int will never be as good for you as it is for the Gnomes, since they get an extra 5.5% int."
Ok, I downloaded Kavan's profile and I see where I am getting different results. Its not the gnome thing.
Rawr is showing 1254 dps for his toon (un raid buffed). Select the 40/21 frost spec for his toon instead, with the same gear, and his dps jumps 100, and runed crimson spinels jump way ahead of brilliant lionseyes.
I suspect the difference has to do with spell rotations, but frankly I can't make heads or tails of it.
What it looks like to me is that Int values are extremely sensitive to minor changes in spec and spell rotation for arcane specs.
But it also looks to me like int>damage is only true for an "off" arc/frost spec.
For purposes of evaluating upgrade value of items there will be a new tool in the next release. It is a combination of optimizer with gear ratings. While the usual comparison charts give you the direct comparison of swapping the item, this will tell you how much you can gain by allowing it to swap some other gear with items that you have available. This way for example if you're at hit cap an item with hit will be properly evaluated as it will consider swapping some other pieces with non-hit gear that you have available. Why I mention this is because for socketed items it will show you just the best gemming.
That sounds wonderful. Thank you Kavan and Astrylian. :-) I'm looking forward to it.
Threat will be included in b14 though, which will have a customizable coefficient.
Does this mean b14 will include hit and expertise ratings and the ability to add dps enchants in the Bear model? Outside of rewriting the way gems are done (which you know about), it's pretty much my only complaint with that model. It has definitely been difficult to see what the best gear is for many roles with the addition of so much Hit Rating and Expertise tanking gear.
"EDIT: Ivor, look at Kavan. Also, remember that int will never be as good for you as it is for the Gnomes, since they get an extra 5.5% int."
Ok, I downloaded Kavan's profile and I see where I am getting different results. Its not the gnome thing.
Rawr is showing 1254 dps for his toon (un raid buffed). Select the 40/21 frost spec for his toon instead, with the same gear, and his dps jumps 100, and runed crimson spinels jump way ahead of brilliant lionseyes.
I suspect the difference has to do with spell rotations, but frankly I can't make heads or tails of it.
What it looks like to me is that Int values are extremely sensitive to minor changes in spec and spell rotation for arcane specs.
But it also looks to me like int>damage is only true for an "off" arc/frost spec.
Well you won't get an accurate picture unless you select the buffs available. In the setting I usually have (CoS, JoW, shadow priest, el. shaman, no CoE) the spec I'm using comes on top, the difference between it and 40/0/21 almost non-existent. If I change to 40/0/21 I still have int gems over dmg. Main influencing factor I think is whether you have CoE and/or CoS. The main point is that both dmg and int gems are very close in value in arcane and as a result matching socket colors makes a lot more sense than just stacking one everywhere.
Optimizer being dumb... Yeah, we're working on improving it, just takes time.
For the record, part of optimizer's dumbness is on the other end of the screen. It actually worked quite well for me after I marked gems/enchants available (and ran b13.1 instead of b13 >.>). It discovered a higher dps set than my current one (not feasible for me though, since it assumed I could put DPS enchants on my tanking T6 .. which goes back to the issue Athinira brought up about whether enchants should be "part" of the item or not).
But anyway, make sure you're using it correctly before you knock it.
"Well you won't get an accurate picture unless you select the buffs available. In the setting I usually have (CoS, JoW, shadow priest, el. shaman, no CoE) the spec I'm using comes on top, the difference between it and 40/0/21 almost non-existent. If I change to 40/0/21 I still have int gems over dmg. Main influencing factor I think is whether you have CoE and/or CoS. The main point is that both dmg and int gems are very close in value in arcane and as a result matching socket colors makes a lot more sense than just stacking one everywhere."
OK, I replicated your results, and did get lionseye>spinels for your gear with a 40/21 spec with no COE up.
But I think that's important to note - dps differentials between lionseyes and spinels are highly contingent on assumptions used and gear levels. Tweak them slightly, and you get a different result.
I do agree that lionseyes (or potent pyrestons for some of the assumption tweaks I have tried) are close enough to spinels that yellow socket bonuses can be more readily obtained than they can be for fire specs.
And the general conclusion about intellect being roughly as important a dps stat as spell damage is an important one for arcane mages to be aware of.
I was using the warlock model in 13.1 and for a dps comparison, I switched all the buffs from + shadow damage ones to +fire damage ones (being imp scorch and CoE) noticed a slight expected dps drop, then I switched my main spell cast to incinerate from shadowbolt, and my total dps dropped from 2300 to 200. I didnt change anything but the buffs, all gear remained the same.
I'm a bit confused with how Rawr is figuring out a specific piece that is better or worse than another for cat form. I'm comparing the Handwraps of the Aggressor (gemmed with stam/def) to Gauntlets of Malorne. I already have 3 other pieces of the Malorne set on (helm, shoulders, chest) so the Malorne bonus shouldn't apply here. Yet the handwraps are actually still lower than the Malorne. Is 13 agility and a haste bonus really worth less than 2 str? Because that's the only difference I can see.
Another case for somehow excluding regemming items in the optimizer:
I wanted to find my best gear for when a Balance druid comes with us (about 50% of the time). The impact is improved faerie fire, with a reduced +hit cap.
The main change is that +hit gems loose a lot of value and for exemple the best yellow gem becomes Inscribed Ornate Topaz (10 AP, 5 crit).
Therefore the optimizer suggests regemming my current gear, which is not really an option when optimizing for raid composition.
I understand that this is a tough issue to solve. The workaround (to artificially create gear pieces with the same stats as gemmed/enchanted ones you don't want to modify) works but is really cumbersome. As a temporary fix, could Rawr help with a "freeze item" command ? This command would duplicate a gemmed/enchanted item, to make an equivalent new piece without socket (nor "enchantability"), equip it, and automatically mark it as available, while marking its source as unavailable. Optionally, Rawr could also display a frozen item slightly differently, ideally with the source item's gems.
Last edited by Noctambul : 04/24/08 at 5:56 AM.
Reason: typo
You could always just take that slot out of the optimizer's hands completely, but that might be problematic depending on what slot it is and what set bonus it is doing.
I see to be having a problem loading my character from the armory. I downloaded the newest version and ran the program but when I go to load my character from the armory I get the error:
No character returned from the armory.
Any idea why it cant find my char? Ive quadruple checked my name/realm to make sure that wasnt the problem.
I see to be having a problem loading my character from the armory. I downloaded the newest version and ran the program but when I go to load my character from the armory I get the error:
No character returned from the armory.
Any idea why it cant find my char? Ive quadruple checked my name/realm to make sure that wasnt the problem.
That indicates a network issue; Rawr can't contact the armory. Are you behind a firewall, or have a proxy server or something? There's proxy settings in the Options menu.
That indicates a network issue; Rawr can't contact the armory. Are you behind a firewall, or have a proxy server or something? There's proxy settings in the Options menu.
What I´d like to see for the optimizer was diffrent methods of (de)selecting items/enchants/gems for it´s use.
First of all a basic a "Select All" and "Deselect All" method would be nice.
In addition getting a selection for a certain progress state like BT clear, MH clear or BT/MH clear etc would be great. So someone who´s at that stage just needs select that setting and everything dropping in (or up to?) said instance will be added automatically.
I guess this could be done in two ways. Either you offer a way to save diffrent optimizer templates independant of the actual items used and maybe even include some custom made templates for the various progress states already. Or you let us simply select diffrent sources like raid instances, single bosses, professions etc and the optimizer selects the corrosponding items on it´s own. This would require the optimizer to associate every item with at least one source though, which might be more of an effort than you´re willing to put into it.
First of all, great work on Rawr Astrylian, didn't have the chance to comment before
I have been having an issue recently, when I run it, the starting window is there and it's blacked out, but also popping up are 2 smaller ones - included is the screenshot of what it looks like.
By panicstrike
Also, since this started happening, I have been getting a lot of sudden "error, this program will shut down" messages, when I click on items list or try to edit.
Did I break it somehow? and do you maybe have any suggestions on how to rectify this? Thanks a lot
What I´d like to see for the optimizer was diffrent methods of (de)selecting items/enchants/gems for it´s use.
First of all a basic a "Select All" and "Deselect All" method would be nice.
In addition getting a selection for a certain progress state like BT clear, MH clear or BT/MH clear etc would be great. So someone who´s at that stage just needs select that setting and everything dropping in (or up to?) said instance will be added automatically.
I guess this could be done in two ways. Either you offer a way to save diffrent optimizer templates independant of the actual items used and maybe even include some custom made templates for the various progress states already. Or you let us simply select diffrent sources like raid instances, single bosses, professions etc and the optimizer selects the corrosponding items on it´s own. This would require the optimizer to associate every item with at least one source though, which might be more of an effort than you´re willing to put into it.
I won't be adding a Select All / Deselect All, because you really shouldn't do that. It makes the optimizer take a *really* (I mean really) long time, way more than is reasonable or necessary. Additionally, having preset selections by tier isn't feasible or valuable, because the different tiers vary greatly, and overlap quite alot. Just select what are actually decent available items for each slot, it takes like 2 min.
Originally Posted by Wickedgirl
First of all, great work on Rawr Astrylian, didn't have the chance to comment before
I have been having an issue recently, when I run it, the starting window is there and it's blacked out, but also popping up are 2 smaller ones, included is the screenshot of what it looks like.
Also, since this started happening, I have been getting a lot of sudden "error, this program will shut down" messages, when i click on items list or try to edit.
Did I break it somehow? and do you maybe have any suggestions on how to rectify this? Thanks a lot
That's extremely odd. So odd that it's got to be a system problem. I'd try uninstalling and reinstalling .NET Framework 2.0.
I'm seeing a funky situation in rawr.mage regarding 10/0/51 frost spec and haste/spell damage rating in the Item Budget selector. When I wear my regular raid set-up, my item budget looks like this:
That's a LOT of value on haste. So much so that I sincerely wonder why, because it's not like I have particularly unusual equipment in my gearset.
However, when I "re-gem" my T6 shoulders to have the spell haste/stamina gem (which rawr is valuing highly as indicated by my crazy haste item budget values) instead of the spell damage/stamina gem they have currently, my item budget shifts to this:
That seems to be a much more realistic item budget, but why would it shift that much for a gain of 5 spell haste over 6 spell damage?
That seems to be a much more realistic item budget, but why would it shift that much for a gain of 5 spell haste over 6 spell damage?
I'm trying to match your settings, but I can't exactly reproduce it. One thing I would check is if there is any large shift in spell cycles between the two setups. If there is then maybe try without incremental optimizations if you see a more accurate picture. If you can't figure it out you can send me the xml and I'll take a look.
EDIT: I just noticed that one thing that might happen is that you're at the breakpoint of haste between needing mana consumables and not, so disabling incremental optimizations will probably do the trick (incremental optimizations speed up calculations by assuming that you're making small changes that won't cause large shifts in spell cycles, whenever that is not true you'll get more accurate comparisons by disabling it)
It could also be that you've hit an instability in the solver. In that case you'll have to wait for next release which has a more accurate one.
Kavan, here's my XML if you want to try to duplicate it...I flipped between incremental optimization and the like and it didn't change anything. http://www.boomspeed.com/tyenu/adhira.frost.xml
Using that XML profile, all I did was change the blue gem slot in my shoulders from a Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst to a Forceful Seaspray Emerald to get the item budget to jump the way it did.
Thanks for the xml. I found what the problem was. There's a part of code that estimates how many pots and gems you will be able to use maximum based on your mana burn rate and it appears the bound it was using was to strict. It just so happens that in your case it was estimating that if you got just a bit more haste you'll burn enough mana that you'll get the pot/gem cooldowns started fast enough for another pot before the fight ends. I'll make a fix for next release.
04/16/08, 8:28 PM
http://www.boomspeed.com/tyenu/adhira.frost.xml
Similar Threads
