Well, will have a look at the machanics right now because I lost 23 Hit rating after swapping out S3 Head and Chest to use T4 Shoulder and Chest and T6 Head and Hands for 2T4 and 2T6 in the Damage Equipment. I hope that -5 Energy cost for mangle makes up the loss of hit rating. I am not through BT yet (3/9) so we start with Teron as the next boss. So I will soon have the possiblity to get to the DPS Test encounter and play with the equipment. I even can include the heroic presence in the test.

I have an additional Feral in nearly all raids to try the mangle bot stuff.

About rogues vs. druids and hit rating.

A significant reason hit rating works out to be so powerful for rogues, specifically combat rogues, is due to the fact that they have many powerful chance on hit procs. Combat potency, sword spec, and windfury all scale with hit (and to some extent with haste, but windfury/sword spec scale better with hit as it the proc also needs to land or you gain no benefit). Also weapon enchants (mongoose), this is not a flat % but it will be some adjusted % chance based on weapon speed that is then checked in a second roll that your attack needs to land first to trigger.

I am not a expert on feral druids, but as far as I know none of those chance on hit procs apply (windfury or proc based weapon enchants don't work for druids do they?). Even if its just not having combat potency and sword spec thats a pretty significant buff to the value of +hit for rogues that does not apply to druids.

This clear things up any? (and please forgive me if I got anything wrong)

We get procs just just about everything except weapon enchants. One of our most powerful procs is an estimated 4% chance on hit.

My own personal theory for why hit isn't as big a deal for us is that our DPS is energy limited, and a miss on our bread and butter attack only causes us to lose 20% of the energy of the attack. If we were cooldown limited, hit rating would be a lot more important.

You would need to do similar with missing a Rip. This would most likely be easiest to implement as an increase to average cycle time. That would be at least one GCD for those cycles. However, depending on current energy you might end up with either unmangled rip ticks or waiting an energy tick (or 2) to restart the cycle. My guess is that it's better to have unmangled ticks rather than waiting for energy.

For example, at 70 energy and previous Rip ends. Missing Rip puts you now at 40 energy. Do you wait 2 ticks for 80 energy to restart cycle or Rip again immediately? If you do Rip again right away, an energy tick will come before you can powershift putting you at 30 energy. You now have to wait another tick to Mangle. So, it's either 4 seconds longer on cycle or 1 GCD longer and 1 unmangled tick. However, if you started over 75 energy it's only the GCD loss (with 2t6).

Most models I've seen only count an energy loss.

Indeed, Rawr.Cat is modeled after Toskk's.

If we can figure out hard numbers for these things, I don't mind updating them in Rawr.Cat. However, I'm not really looking to just go tinkering around in there, what with WotLK looming, and tons of stuff needing to be rewritten anyway. I'm hoping Toskk and I (and perhaps others, dunno) can build a really accurate cat model for WotLK, together.

I just wanted to make it very clear that everybody knows that the math should be the same between Toskk's calc and Rawr.Cat. With WotLK on the horizont with currently looking like major re-work with all we see from alpha leaks.
I did actually do an edit.

Is anyone working on a Rawr:Enhancement Shaman model?

Heh, before I got 2t6 i would actually use rake during the shield if I was going to bleed energy since it was a cheap way to get CPs.

In that thread I only see discussing misses in respect to combo point generation. The model clearly does not model misses to Rip since a 12 second cycle is not possible without being both hit/expertise capped (and I can get a 12s cycle in Rawr). It does not model unmangled Rip ticks either.

I'm not suggesting redoing current models at this point in time. Models are only theoretical maximum estimates for a perfect player and should not be taken as law. I'm only stating that there is a value to hit rating that is not currently captured and people using these types of tools should know this. However, even though I rarely get to DPS in raid I'm personally very interested in finding out what that value is.

Ok, going back to the basis of Rawr, which Toskk's Calculator and the development together with Emmerald you might want to look at this post. Toskk, do you read these forums?

This looks like at least all misses during the cycle are accounted for as you already stated. Going back to the rotation in a perfect world you would lose 1 Second and 30 Energy in case of a missed rip. This would let you drop to 10 Energy after the second Rip to and let you powershift if you are using the current macro's. So basically you lose 1 Second of perfect rotation.

Hey guys, just a quick question: What's the status of Rawr.rogue? Will it ever be released? Thanks in advance.