That's not particollary true, last I heard FBN dps value are the nearest to reality (and still seems too high).
FBN is not a theorycraft tool but a simulation tool, it doesn't make assumption and everyone can play with the code and change the cycle if they find a better one, atm I failed at finding a better cycle than the one I used. Rawr on the other hand make assumption for energy usage and dot uptime that are far from reality. Being a theorycraft tool that's obvious otherwise it will take ages (like FBN) to compute a simple stat value.
I use Rawr my self because is pretty simple to use and has a good interface, but I know its limit (and many times I choce to ignore them).

I think we are mixing up Apples and Oranges. First of all FBN and Rawr uses different cycles.
Second in rawr you put in your char and see the stat allocation, with FBN you can do the same but is far more complex, so I used to push a BiS gear for each tier with the relative stat allocation. The 230 value is refered to a T7 BiS geared druid with Grim Toll if I remember correctly. Different gear set will give you different stat allocation for sure. That's really doesn't matter because the important think is selecting the right gear and giving it the right value to choce your drops. I near BiS gear both FBN and Rawr put Arpen ahead of other stats, they also give very similar values for stat allocation (around 0.03 dps difference from each other, for istance with my bis gear rawr gives me 1.78 for Arpen and FBN gives 1.8).

This point is really the issue here, in my opinion. With 4 piece T7.5 Rawr says ArP gives me more dps, but honestly, how valuable is the small amount (in my case it's only 7 dps) compared to the added value of being able to switch to bear form and have the very valuable stats provided by agility? Even the best guilds out there have things go wrong at times and will need us to go bear unexpectedly and prevent a wipe, and that added armor, crit for savage defense, dodge, etc, can make that little bit of difference.

If you NEVER will be put in that position, I would consider spending the gold for the few extra dps and regem, but stay tuned. 3.2 is coming, and we don't know final adjustments yet.

Those are really 2 different things.Firstly I'm not sure how much those 4-5% extra dodge will save my life in that situation, second is a matter of personal feeling, I'm the first who is specced with only 1/5 FA while dpsing because I prefer to take ImpLoP and improved swipe, but I know that single target dps will be lower. It's a trade off. Max dps theorycraft is different from what is better to do in real game because real game depends on your raid setup, wich boss you are aiming for and many other un-theorycraftable factors (or simply not worth to theorycraft).

Right. It's the optimizer's job is to tell you how much dps you could gain by switching to ArPen gems (if at all). It's your job to decide if that's worth the loss in potential tanking value of those items (and the gold cost to make that change too; most people wouldn't buy a dozen scarlet rubies for 4dps).

The "what if I have to tank suddenly" argument still seems very flawed; does it really matter that much if you have ArP gems or Agi gems when presumably ALL your enchants and your meta will be dps-oriented? I've put agi gems in any piece of gear I have to use for 'double-duty' but that's still far from ideal - just sit back a minute and think of what you're missing out on defensively (even assuming you've gemmed all agi):

meta: 21agi/ 3% crit damage vs 32stam/2% armor from items
helm: 50ap/20crit vs 37stam/20def
shoulders: 40ap/15crit vs 20dodge/15def
bracers: 50ap vs 40stam
legs: 75ap/22crit vs 55stam/22agi
boots: 12crit/12hit vs 15stam/runspeed (or 22 stam I guess, but I'd still take runspeed)

As an enchanter I also have 64ap on my rings where I could have 48stam (similar differnces for applicable tradeskills like LW etc).

For the slots that have enchants, only chest, gloves, cloak, and weapon have enchants that are suitable for both cat and bear--you must make significant sacrafices everywhere else. Can you mitigate your losses by putting agi in every gem slot instead of ArP? Sure, but after all the other losses you've incurred with your enchants is it really going to make an appreciable difference in your ability to tank anything remotely dangerous? You don't have near the HP of a properly equipped tank, and more than likely there are deeper problems with the raid (that caused your tank to get gibbed in the first place) that will wipe you regardless. If you're at the top of threat when the tank eats it, you're likely to A) get splattered before you react or B) get splattered before your healers react; and if you're not top threat, you're likely to lose several DPS before you re-stabilize for the same aforementioned reasons--and probably eventually die to an enrage timer (soft or hard).

I've been on a hiatus for much of wrath, but throughout all of TBC, I can count the number of times on one hand I've turned a wipe into a kill by taking over tanking after an MT death (once on a PUG mag, once on Teron, and a few other times that I can't even recall which boss it was). Those were the days when agi was pretty much king for both jobs, and it was only made possible due to PvP gear shenanigans in PvE and how easy it was to hit a "minimum HP threshold" as a druid (esp. a tauren druid). Bosses hit for so much more these days, I wouldn't expect to achieve similar success even in such limited capacity.

So, TL;DR - you can argue the merits of ArP vs Agi for dps and people are certainly free to gem which ever they please(we seem to be in agreement its very close either way), but the "accidental tank" scenario is inevitably a strawman arguement that, in my opinion, doesn't really hold up well in practice.

There have been plenty of times where I save the raid from a wipe and come out with a kill. I remember specifically my previous guild's first successful Auraiaya kill. The MT died on the pull from all the pounces and I picked up the boss. The GM wanted to call a wipe but I got them to stop. The tank got a battle res and we finished her off.

For Thorim I tank adds in the arena using full dps spec/gear. I help tank adds on Yogg P1 if we get an extra one. In 10 man IC I actually tank the second boss in full dps gear. It gives us enough dps that we only need one tank for Steelbreaker. Not all bosses will clobber you with 1 hit. There are plenty of cases where it is still useful.

However, there is a limit to what we can bring for the really hard hitting stuff like Algalon. In those cases we can't come near the usefulness of a rogue popping evasion with just a few gems different. So, I still gem ArP mostly.

I think you mean Auraiaya in the first case.

Like you, I have saved a wipe by tanking in DPS gear. This can only really be done on a few bosses though (Not Decon Hard, Hodir, Thorim, Steelbreaker, Mimiron, Vezax, Algalon), and considering how few items end up being BiS (or even close really) for both Cat and Bear especially after Enchant/Meta Difference, I see very little reason to gem Agi in anything but neck, cloak, belt, bracers, and rings, the later 3 being dependent on your professions not being LW or Enchanting. As a LW/Enchanter, I can't really pull double duty with my bracers or rings, having access to the multitude of gems out there really gives BS/JC a major advantage, I'd gain 53 DPS as well as the option to pull double duty with all those items.

I saw mention of Rawr moving to a "web-app" format. Is this true? If so, will you still be maintaining the ability to export character config files?

I am looking into importing the Rawr character xml and wanted to make sure the format was not in imminent danger of extinction.

EDIT: I'm working on just a few example files. I don't see a Glyph specification. Is the format documented anywhere?

Rawr3 will have a web-based version, yes. It will still save and open character files, just like the desktop version.

The character file format doesn't really have documentation, however it is a direct xml serialization of the Character object in Rawr, so if you can read the C#, you can find where stuff is stored. To answer your particular question, glyphs are stored as part of the talent strings. You'll have to look at \Rawr\Rawr.Base\ClassTalents.cs for the order that glyphs are stored in, for each class (it's arbitrary, custom to Rawr).

I found it in ClassGlyphs.cs. Very straight-forward. Thanks!

While digging through the source code I noticed ItemCache.xml. Did you guys build this by hand or through data mining?

I just rely upon one of Armory/Wowhead/MMO-Champion being up, but then I don't try to solve the Gear Optimization problem. (An impressive feat! You have my professional admiration there.)

Err, yeah, ClassGlyphs, not ClassTalents, sorry.

ItemCache.xml is just a serialized version of all the item data in Rawr. You can load whatever items you want, from Wowhead and/or Armory (see Wowhead.cs and Armory.cs for the parsing). I include a default version of it with each release, which contains the items that typical users would want to see (currently, that means pretty much everything equippable over ilvl 185).

Hey all,

With the next major version of Rawr, I'd like to have a new icon and logo. However, I'm not much of a graphic designer (or at least, don't have enough time to put into it), so I'm calling to the community for help! Any good with making this sort of thing? Help out! I'll pick the best from all the submissions to be used as the logo and icon for Rawr v3. Details as follows:

• Icon must come in sizes 16x16, 32x32, 48x48, and 128x128.
• Logo must look good on a light colored background.
• Deadline is August 7th. (Updated: Moved to Aug7, so as not to coincide with Blizz's Fan Art Contest)
• You don't have to submit both an icon and a logo, just one of them is fine too.
• Icon can be of anything WoW related that you think would represent Rawr.
• Logo should contain the Rawr name, and may or may not include the icon.
• To submit an icon/logo, e-mail it to cnervig@hotmail.com. I will be posting them in a thread on our CodePlex site, as they're sent to me.

I look forward to seeing what you all can come up with! Let me know if there are any questions.

I suggest you put that request on the main page of the codeplex/rawr site. Surely more people see that page than this thread.

Ah, I posted it on the discussions tab, but the front page is a good idea too. Done.

New deadline: August 7th. (Updated: Moved to Aug7, so as not to coincide with Blizz's Fan Art Contest)

3.2 is going live today, tried to adjust the prismatic JC gems to be blue/red sockets etc, but now they just work as unique. Rest seems to be working decently with the epic gems since that support was put in a while back.

Can't wait for an updated version for 3.2

Thanks for all your support, I appreciate it and I'm sure this goes for tons of other people.

Download - Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.2.11

Tour of Rawr Movie! - YouTube - Tour of Rawr

Recent Changes:
v2.2.11.0
- NOTE! Everyone, please do NOT reuse your GemmingTemplates.xml file from a previous version of Rawr, due to all the changes in gems in 3.2.
- Updated base stats, stat conversions, and gemming rules for 3.2
- Fixed a potential crash in Batch Tools
- Rawr.Cat: Updated for 3.2.
- Rawr.Mage: Updated for 3.2. Fix for FFB threat multiplier. Improved Hot Streak modeling.
- Rawr.Retribution: Updated for 3.2.
- Rawr.Enhance: Added support for Orc axe racial. Fix for weapon speed charts.
- Rawr.DPSWarr: Rearranged the options panel. Fixed several calculation bugs/improvements.
- Rawr.Warlock: Fixed several calculation bugs/improvements.
- Rawr.RestoSham: Fixed several calculation bugs/improvements.
- Rawr.Hunter: Fixed many calculation bugs/improvements.
- Rawr.Moonkin: Now properly counts lost GCDs due to FF/Starfall/Treants.
- Rawr.Elemental: Improved handling of special effects. Fixed several calculation bugs/improvements.
- Rawr.Healadin: Updated for 3.2.
- Rawr.RestoSham: Updated for 3.2.
- Rawr.Tree: Updated for 3.2.

bear coming soon?

There were no changes specific to bears in WoW 3.2. Rawr.Bear v2.2.11 is fully updated for WoW 3.2.

I thought the problem with JC gems had been fixed in a previous version, but it seems to be present again.

When you already have 3 JC gems, more items will still show up in the item list with these present. However, it when it evaluates the item is sees you have too many equipped and makes all the gems worth zero. If an item's passive stats are worth less than the value of the other 3 gems, it show negative value. This puts it at the bottom of the list and messes up the scaling for items you're actually interested in.

In reference to the JC-only gem issue of prismatic/non-prismatic quality, the issue should be fixed by refreshing the cache from either the Armory or from WowHead.

If this does not fix it, you can easily and quickly adjust the gems to their proper color classification by using the Item Editor. Do do this, look at the top of the Comparisons section (the big bars to the right of the window). Select Slot: Gems > Normal. Go down the list, and evaluate each prismatic (grey-highlighted) gem to see if it's a JC-only Dragon's Eye, or if it's a normal Prismatic Gem. Simply adjust each Dragon's Eye to its proper classification (ArP to Red, Hit to yellow, etc.), and go about your way.

Take particular note to ensure those gems which have caps are adjusted - Hit, Expertise, and to a lesser extent, Haste, Crit, and ArP, as they may not show up near the top of the list if the cap is met elsewhere.



Also, please be sure that you are *ALWAYS* noting which module you are running when discussing or reporting any issue concerning Rawr.

2.2.11 was released with the latest Wowhead data at the time, which included the old JC gem data. I *believe* it has since been fixed, so just a refresh of data from Wowhead will fix it, but not positive. Regardless, you can always just change the color/stats yourself.