I agree, they make good hints (and that's why Rawr does have a chart that displays them).
(1) I vehemently agree with this. If you think a model is doing it wrong, clearly state why, and work on making it better.
(2) This is the same as (1) to me. If you think there's a situation like you describe that the model doesn't handle, make the model handle it. In the example you describe, add some sort of movement time %, and perhaps a fragmentation system, so that you can logically describe the problem to Rawr, and have Rawr solve it. That is infinitely better to me than just "I keep having to cancel casts to move, so lets bump the haste weight from 1.6 to... Oh, lets se... 1.8 sounds good, sure, lets do that." I'd much rather see something like "I had to move at 17 random times during that fight, and I each time, it took an average of 4sec of movement." as the input, and let it appropriately calculate things from there. Your inputs may still be imprecise, but the user at least understands the imprecision of their inputs in that case.
My last words on the topic and then I'll let it go. Promise!
I think it would be a mistake to take the hints (1.6 in your example) and then try to force-feed them back in Rawr as absolutes. I would never ask for that. The weights I'm referring to would be relative..... and as such (reasonably) applicable to any gear set. Ideally, movement scenarios (and many many others) would all be supported by all the modules in Rawr. However, as much as I agree with #1 above, things are not always so absolute. Just because it is better to offer module-specific support does not mean a less-accurate cross-module solution is without value.
My last words on the topic and then I'll let it go. Promise!
I think it would be a mistake to take the hints (1.6 in your example) and then try to force-feed them back in Rawr as absolutes. I would never ask for that. The weights I'm referring to would be relative..... and as such (reasonably) applicable to any gear set. Ideally, movement scenarios (and many many others) would all be supported by all the modules in Rawr. However, as much as I agree with #1 above, things are not always so absolute. Just because it is better to offer module-specific support does not mean a less-accurate cross-module solution is without value.
One thing that came up recently in a feral thread was the weighting of threat in the bear model. The threat calculation is based on TPS and then multiplied by the user's choice of factor to compare it alongside survival stats. During actual gameplay, TPS is important, yes--but what's most important is whether your threat gen is consistent or reliable. If two upgrades give me the same increase in my TPS, but one ups my expertise and the other ups my AP, I'll prefer the expertise upgrade every time. Even if the AP upgrade is a bigger upgrade in my sustained TPS, I'd still probably prefer the expertise. (Not having the threat you need in the next 3 seconds is more problematic than not having the threat you need over the course of a 5-minute fight.) The model doesn't make such a distinction, however; it's simply threat, multiplied by the importance you choose to give threat.
Now, Rawr does already have a way of coping with this; I can add a condition to the optimizer saying that I must be hit capped, and another saying I want my expertise to be at the dodge cap at minimum. However, what if I can't get quite to the dodge cap in reasonable gear for what I'm tanking? What if I don't mind being under the hit cap a bit, but would simply prefer to weight hit upgrades more than other TPS upgrades?
The next step is to suggest a refinement in the model, one that allows the user to compare both sustained TPS and threat... consistency, something, I'm not sure what to call it. Add a knob to that; allow the user to specify a higher weight for this reliability value, and consequently get recommendations that favor expertise and hit more heavily. In a way, you are adding a weight to hit and expertise when you do this; you're just doing so in a more sophisticated or meaningful way.
This is where I think the suggestion about a "cross-model solution" is interesting: Expertise does not just have this value for bears. All tank classes have to worry about parry streaks. Hit has a certain sort of value for everything from tanks to casters; outside of its direct contribution to TPS or DPS, it makes using any ability more reliable, smooths out cycles, and reduces the chance of human error. So, it's something to think about, anyway.
Burst threat is probably the term you're looking for.
Since we're talking about where modules fall short, any news on when we might expect ProtPaladin to be updated to current mechanics (i.e., Ardent Defender)?
On an unrelated point, it looks like 2.2.17 is using an older version of the gemming templates (at least for cat and bear) as the default, and does not have some of the newer ones available in 2.2.16 and 15. Nothing horrible, just an annoyance to have to enter those by hand again.
Not sure if this is a bug, or if I am just unable to find the options to do so, however:
I currently have Frostblade Hatchet (1H Axe from reg Toc10) and I wanted to see if it would be better dps for me to respec combat with a 1H Sword (Hatestrike) in my OH.
I can't, for the life of me, equip the 1H Axe in my MH or OH. I tried to look at the item filters list and the option to use 1H Axes was greyed out and I could not checkmark it.
Does RAWR support Rogues w/ 1H Axes? If so, is there something I am missing?
Thanks! (And your welcome if I found a bug...suprised I haven't found any rogues posting about this through search..)
After downloading and trying out the warlock module, I noticed that several actions cause the program to lag up and freeze, becoming entirely unresponsive forcing me to close and reopen it.
-spell priority (this one was the worst I found)
-certain talents, i know Bane (top tier destruction) is one
most of it seems related to items that are large dps changes to gear across the board, talents, buff, spells, etc. (I havent tried changing gear)
edit: seems that if the first thing I do is change the spell priority, its fine.
another edit: putting haunt and unstable affliction in the spell priority was fine, until put talents into them, the program lagged on UA and froze on Haunt.
Another note: ProtPaladin does not take into account the avoidance value of expertise at all. This value is surprisingly considerably higher than you might think; maths done by Theck here.
Edit: It seems the ProtWarr model and Bear model also fail to account for mitigation via expertise; however, the TankDK model appears to include it.
Another note: ProtPaladin does not take into account the avoidance value of expertise at all. This value is surprisingly considerably higher than you might think; maths done by Theck here.
Edit: It seems the ProtWarr model and Bear model also fail to account for mitigation via expertise; however, the TankDK model appears to include it.
Are you sure about the bear model not including it? I see a small bar for mitigation next to the much larger threat bar when I look at expertise on the "Relative Stat Values" page.
Edit: This could actually be from Savage Defense (more successful attacks => more bear bubbles).
Anyway, don't most LK bosses have the "no parry haste" flag? I know Gormok was missing it and it's being patched in 3.2.2. Might be worth adding a "parry haste" checkbox next to "dual wielding boss" in the configuration.
Which version of Rawr are you using? The current version is updated for 3.2.2, so the ArP Nerf might be affecting you. In previous versions of Rawr, the optimizer recommended gemming for ArP in gearsets well below the gear level you're at for me; but now recommends gemming for agi in the same sets.
What does the relative stat values page show? Is agility ranked above ArP or vice versa?
Also, did you try adding ArP gemming templates?
Sorry I meant to get back to this, I've usually been on the most up to date version of Rawr over the last 6 months, adopting the most recent one the day the notice of a new version comes up on my home comp. My work comp lags a few versions behind.
I didn't even know about the relative stat values until this point *goes and loads from armory* My current cat suit that I am wearing the values are 1.16 for agi and 1.13 for arpen (and str is 1.12 interestingly enough).
When I did this with 2.14 or 2.15 for RSV, Agi was still 1.16 if memory serves and arpen was slightly lower than that, which makes some sense, the chest and boots are coliseum upgrades.
I've added 2 templates on my home machine (at work now), one of them all red arpen gems, one of them I think was the socket matching template with the red arpen gem subbed for the delicate. I've selected the individual gems as available overall.
I've consistently done optimizer runs since I started LK raiding, and I've never gotten the optimizer to recommend arpen when I run with my standard spec and fairly standard raid buffs (lots of improved but no hysteria or the like). I've put in arpen templates and made them avail to the optimizer several times. And for reference this link gives a rough idea of my gear progression up to what I have on the armory right now.
Just noticed something odd, I loaded from armory and am logged out in cat gear and spec. If I switch the model over to bear my arpen rating changes from 324 to 444, I didn't think there was a spec or form based difference for feral arpen.
We're working on the Warlock freezes, please search for the issue in our issue tracker, and respond to it with the causes you find.
1H Axes for Rogues, I'm not sure offhand, but check Tools > Refine Types of Items Listed.
Again, I've tried that. See picture below for evidence:
EDIT: Loaded character from armory, it worked fine now...not sure why I still couldn't select it but at least I have my character sheet properly equipped now.
Are you sure about the bear model not including it? I see a small bar for mitigation next to the much larger threat bar when I look at expertise on the "Relative Stat Values" page.
Edit: This could actually be from Savage Defense (more successful attacks => more bear bubbles).
Anyway, don't most LK bosses have the "no parry haste" flag? I know Gormok was missing it and it's being patched in 3.2.2. Might be worth adding a "parry haste" checkbox next to "dual wielding boss" in the configuration.
Urg. The paladin and warrior models do indeed have just such a checkbox. I didn't see it in the Bear model anywhere though.
Again, I've tried that. See picture below for evidence:
EDIT: Loaded character from armory, it worked fine now...not sure why I still couldn't select it but at least I have my character sheet properly equipped now.
According to the Rawr modules page the rogue one is still in development. I haven't been paying much attention to my rogue recently but I think you will find the spreadsheets are still more accurate than the current Rawr module.
Oh, ugh, that page is way out of date, I need to update it. Rawr.Rogue should be decent now (please report that bug with axes on our Issue Tracker), but I'd suggest double-checking with the leading spreadsheet (since the Rogue spreadsheet is very good).
Going back to the reason for this post, I was trying to set up a geming template using a [Nightmare Tear] and it just isn't showing up. I was interested to see if using one of them for activating a [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] would be better than using two purple gems but I can't select it in a geming template.
Just fixed this, added a manual override to force Nightmare Tear and it's lesser counterparts to show with Hide Bad Items enabled.
Recent Changes:
v2.2.18.0
- UI updates! Added optional display of item slot in tooltips. Also improved wrapping on tooltips. Charts should provide more intuitive sorting. You can now view charts for gems by color.
- Improved the default item filters somewhat.
- Rawr.Cat: Tweaks to rotation calculations. Significantly improved Stats tab UI.
- Rawr.Healadin: Fix for movement speed relevancy.
- Rawr.Rogue: Fixes for several issues.
- Rawr.DPSWarr: Fix for filtering with and without 'Hide Bad Items' turned on. Fix for a potential crash. Fix for an issue with loading previously saved characters. Significan updates to rage calculations.
- Rawr.Warlock: Fix for another potential crash.
- Rawr.Elemental: Fix for DoT calculations.
- Rawr.DPSDK: Updates for 3.2.2.
- Rawr.Mage: Updates for 3.2.2.
- Rawr.TankDK: Several improvements to rotations. Updates for 3.2 and 3.2.2.
- Rawr.Enhance: Several minor tweaks to custom charts, totems, and haste smoothing.
- Rawr.ProtPaladin: Improvements to special effect handling.
- Rawr.Tree: Fix for IED handling.
Recent Changes:
v2.2.19.0
- Those were not the filters that you were looking for. v2.2.18 accidentally included some horrible inbreed of a filters file, not the one it was supposed to have. Now it has the one it's supposed to have.
- Added consumables that provide low end raid buffs.
- Rawr.Mage: Adjustments for 3.2.2.
- Rawr.ProtPaladin: Adjustments for 3.2.2.
- Rawr.Elemental: Adjustments for 3.2.2.
- Rawr.ShadowPriest: Fix for DoT crit damage with metagem.
- Rawr.Enhance: Fix for a totem drop rate.
What are the adjustments to ProtPaladin? I'm really wondering if Ardent Defender has been modeled yet, as it hasn't seemed to be accounted for in previous releases.
Astrylian, I know it's not THAT usefull, but could bears get something that shows Health with Survival Instincts + Glyph(45%)? It shouldn't be too hard to make it.
It could be either another stat being show on "Survival Stats" or a buff placed along these (now) useless ones on "Temporary Buffs".
Thanks in advance.
09/16/09, 10:49 PM
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