Yes it's still a problem. If you run primarily 5 (or even 10) man groups, you'd been doing the same stuff for a very long time pre ZA. And ZA is pretty tiny (and only for 10-mans). There is, in fact, exactly zero new 5-man content in the game currently from when the expansion launched on, unless you're including stuff like Ogri'la/Skettis (which I don't think are what's being meant as 5-man content). The only way that this isn't true is in terms of gear progression. That's all well and good, but it's not always about the gear, 90% of the discussion on this board notwithstanding.

Whether or not I and the folks I play with can blow through every heroic in 30 mins or still struggle to get through some of the nastier ones, there's nothing that's compelling or interesting for us any more. We've tried it all, done it all, and the only possible place to look to for new content is ZA and 25-man raiding. That's disappointing if you can't/won't invest the time/commitment to do that type of raiding. It's also disappointing if you think, for example, it would be really awesome to see BT but you'll never get there because you're not doing 25 man raiding. And that seems to be what the original post is trying to address.

(Though personally I'd rather have more interlocking progressions: For example, every major hub (TK, SSC, etc..) has a 5-10-25 level 70 "progression" oriented set of dungeons, and there's an overarching progression from hub to hub. No need to try to retune Hydross for 5, but something along the lines of the Blood Furnace tie-in where in the 5-man you go in and kill the "safe" controllers pinning Mags down. In a hypothetical 10-man you have to disrupt the emergency reinforcements sent to get him back under control. And in the 25-man you do Mag more or less exactly like he is now.)

Magister's Terrace seems to be at least some indication that Blizzard understands that casuals are bored with the game.

Unfortunately, this still doesn't get down to the point; that casuals are missing out on large chunks of lore because, for whatever reason, they're unable to get into the high-end content. Unfortunately, retuning is the most logical choice. Yes, it will involve extra effort. Are there really any good alternatives that allow casuals to go in? Suggesting bumping the limit isn't really going to solve the problem. If we're talking about casuals, pugs get included. The effort on some nights to get 5 people together is hard enough, let alone trying to get 40 people together to try and run Black Temple. Hell, I've watched people in /2 trying to find 2 healers for Kara. 60 minutes later, I'm watching the person still asking for 1 more healer. I couldn't imagine "LFM 4 healers, 3 tanks, 5 dps - BT".

Would 25-man's feel a bit empty with fewer people? Eh, not that bad, really. Is there a lot of retuning that needs to go in? You'd have to alter the boss scripts a bit. How much depends on things go. A bit more thought in design is really all that has to happen, though.

I think going down to 10 man is far enough. With a 5 man dungeon, I think people will expect to be able to clear it on the first try...are there any 5 man dungeons that can't be finished with a few wipes? Timed events (like heroic SH) might take multiple attempts to complete successfully, but actually finishing the dungeon is doable in a single attempt, probably with a few wipes on the first go through.

With a 10 man raid, people will expect to learn the encounter. And 10 man raids are can be done in a pug...kara is. I think more than 10 is just hard to fill out for a pug and small guilds, but 10 has turned out to be a very good number given the success of kara. There should still be new 5 man content, but I can definitely understand that tuning down a 25 man encounter to be doable with 5 would destroy all of the original flavor of the fight.

I wonder how much retuning would have to be done. For example, I know that kara can be cleared in 3-4 hours with a well-geared 5 man group. So it's just a matter of having the gear to do it...so in theory if you toned down the mobs hps/damage (to simulate the gear advantage those who 5 man it now have), you could make it a 5 man instance. I wonder how many 25 man fights could be toned down to 10 man just by reducing stats on mobs. Obviously more tuning would be needed for complex fights like Vash and Kael, but it seems like that would be enough for many bosses. Having never seen any 25 man content I couldn't say, but from reading about fights like Void Reaver or Gruul I'd say retuning many fights is really just a numbers game.

This is what Jaxtrasi is getting at and what I think a lot of people are missing. Imagine if there was no SW25 in 2.4, just better drops in BT/HYJ. That is, you will get gear upgrades, but no new content to use it on. That is what the situation is like for non raiders at the moment - they are getting plenty of gear upgrades, but nothing new to use it on. I consider this will be a factor that will eventually push me away from the game; I don't want to raid next expansion as it's simply too time consuming. I do however still want to play the game, albeit as a game rather then a second job in terms of hours required. That leaves me with solo/5 man PvE and PvP.

New 5 man dungeons are basically non existant once you clear those offered with release so PvE will offer no new content. PvP is much the same - while it is not scripted to the extent PvE is the fact remains that you are still fighting against the same classes with the same abilities in the same battlegrounds/arenas you have had access to for the last 12 months. Nothing new. Under the current model PvP will offer the best progression path in terms of cutting edge loot but at the end of the day the content will not change from patch to patch. If Blizzard do release an expansion after WotLK I will probably have left the game before it's release due to lack of new content unless things are changed.

That said though, what incentive do Blizzard have for improving the game for non raiders (10 or 25 man)? Subscriptions are going up, not down. Either non raiders are generally happy enough with the game to keep playing it, or (more likely) the game is attractive enough to draw more new subscribers then the amount of people leaving the game. In either case profits are increasing which means they are doing well enough from a business perspective to keep going as is.

I think its a good idea in principle but your suggested implementation would fail badly.

One thing I would like to see is tiered 5 mans. That is similar to your suggestion that the TK instances would be a step above normal 5 mans, and drop appropriate iLvl blues to signify that.

The same for heroics, have 2 or 3 tiers of heroic difficulty instead of just the 1. The benefit of this is that non-raiders get a form of progression. Rather than just hitting 70 and wham you've got 7 dungeons to pick from, you hit 70 and you have 3-4 dungeons to choose from. Once you've farmed these up for gear you're okay to go into the next 3. Then you get heroic keys and the same happens there.

Another thing I like is the idea of the SWP/AQ model of releasing a 5 or 10 man alongside a 25 man, that has a lot to do with it both in looks and lore. I think this cuts down on development time (if you're designing two dugneons to look similar you can skimp a lot on desigining the mobs and archtiecture as there is a lot of crossover, same with quests and lore) and it also helps prevent any one style of play from feeling ignored.

I'm not saying that 5 mans should scale with difficulty right up to iLvl 151 stuff, I do think 10 man should.


I like the idea of concurrent releases of 10 and 25 man dungeons that match each other in progression. It allows a progressional path via 10 mans that is currently not possible (KZ->ZA is hardly a path).

Imagine the following scenario for TBC:

-Karazhan is on farm, Gruul and Magtheridon receive continual retuning and SSC gets heavily nerfed. Thats all what happened in the first few months. But lets say TK was locked at this point (the entire place, not just the eye).

-The cutting edge guilds hit Vashj a few months later. Blizzard monitors this closely and decides that once the 100th guild to kill Vashj has killed her 4 times, thats when they will push the next content. The world first guilds might have had her on farm 6-8 weeks, which I think is an acceptable time to wait. The large majority of current Illidan killing guilds will probably be on Vashj when the new content comes.

- Content patch! With the defeat of Lady Vashj the Cenarion Expedition have been able to once more lend their aid to the Naruu. In turn this has freed up enough Aldor and Scryer troops to reinforce the Netherstorm garrisons and make a push on reclaiming Tempest Keep. First daily quests added involving disruption of the mana forges, eliminating air defences on and around TK and gathering resources from the eco-domes to feed troops. Something is amiss in the Arcatraz, the place has drifted from the main keep and is now outside of the protection of the Eye's defences. Dailys in the Arcatraz 5 man and heroic become immediately available with the patch.

- The dailys are more as a way to make the player feel more involved than as a deliberate cock block on progress. They are not excessive and on any medium pop server the dailys should be completed inside the first week. The completion of stage one gives a fly point (somewhere near the goblin outpost now, which wouldn't be there), a few more dailys and access to the Mechanar normal and heroic (disrupting the mana supply has meant the eye cannot stay at full power, and can no longer protect the Mechanar).

- Players venture into the Mechanar whilst continuing in the only week old Arcatraz and continue to get new drops and the like. Unlocking the Mechanar has also opened a new boss in the Arcatraz, lets say one of the Forge Master things that hold the keys in Mech. (encourages people to still go arc as new boss drops new loot).

- Another week (earlier on high pop servers) and enough dailys are complete to launch the final assault on the Kael's forces. Lets say this involves multiple bombing runs ala Halaa runs and taking out the remaining defenses on the Botanica and the Eye. Completion opens the Eye, the new 25 man dungeon as exists today. Bosses would be slightly harder to make it more of a progression from SSC but none as hard as Vashj bar Kael.

- The completion also opens The Botanica, a brand new 10 man dungeon which is a direct continuation of Karazhan and parallels TK in the progression line. Tough bosses, timed loot runs (the ZA system of timed loot is an excellent pacing and reward mechanism) and enough content to last a fair while, longer lifespan with timed runs for the final chest. Drops are 75% blue quality items of identical iLvl to TK items (iLvl 128 armour, iLvl 134 blues). Warpsplinter, the last boss (could make a rock solid warpsplinter using current mechanics for 10 man) drops a couple of epic items equivalent of pre-Kael TK loot (128 epics). They get nice rewards but will find it impossible to make full epic sets from this. Thats the idea. The dungeon will have a rep associated with it and eventually a really hard over the top unlockable boss (think Viscidus or Ouro style) that drops kael level (141) blues and a few epics like the previous ones (128). This is the pinnacle of 10 man raiding and is hard. The idea here is to make a TOUGH 10 man raid that rivals the current endgame 25 man.

3 months later...

- So Kael has been beaten, Warpsplinter too. Both the 10 man elite and raiders in or finished TK are still running Botanica for loot, rep and the timed run rewards (good epics maybe, phoenix mount/pet, use your imagination).


-Blizz starts the cycle again. Mount Hyjal is released within 6-8 weeks of the top guilds getting Kael down. Okay we're gonna save a bit of dev resources here and not link the new 10 man to Hyjal. (though it would be easy to do lore wise). Hyjal is for the raiders, Zul Aman gets released for the non-raiders. There are no world events or the like for this release, just a new dungeon to explore. The dungeons are identical to as they are now. Zul'aman follows the same loot forumla as Botanica. ilvl 141-151 blues, ilvl 141 epics from Malacrass, Zul'jin and timed chest box 3. Malacrass and Zul'jin drop 1 blue if 1 timed chest was unlocked, 2 blues for 2, 1 epic for 3, 2 epics for 4. If no boss was killed in the timed run time, Malacrass' door won't open that reset. Difficulty is tuned up due to the addition of Botanica after Karazhan.

- A few months after Hyjals release BT is pushed live. BT is a cut down version of what it is now. Players start at the Deathwsworn base inside. The sewer section up to Supremus is used for the 10 man BT, lets call it The Karabor Sewers. Again no daily quest effort to open but a fair bit of lore. Lets stick 4 bosses in the 5 man initially. We already have Najentus and Supremus. Both these bosses are considered a fair walk over as far as 25 man bosses go, but the thing is they both scale down to 10 man with little or not effort. A slight tuning in hp, dmg and possibly hurtful frequency and both bosses are completely fine with no additional ability tuning. Then we add in a couple more. Lets add one before Najentus off on one of the sewer side paths that no one ever goes to. He can be a nice Water elemental boss, we don't have enough of those. Then after Naj you can add a Nether dragon rider as a boss at the trash before Supremus in the corner. Flies about, commands waves of attacks etc... possibly Rajaxx v2.

- Once Illidan has been downed on the server, the large gate behind Supremus opens up and unlocks one additional boss. Another tough optional kind of affair, with lots of "status" rewards instead of pure power ones. This dungeon is going to be shorter than the previous ones, thinking of dev time and the like.

- Present day: Magister's terrace (10 man) and SWP(25) are currently being tested on ptr.


That would be the way I'd do it.

Pros:
- Clear progressional ladders for 10 man raiders.
- More content for small groups as well as offnight for 25 man raiders content.
- Linking dungeons in theme/design cuts down on some dev costs and time.
- 10 man based rep and dungeon drops help flesh out missing items from 25 mans and offspec loot too.
- For the large part art can be reused. Think of how Rank 7 gear was like smaller, less flashy versions of Rank 14 stuff, or how BS weapons grow in model stature. The same could be applied here, the 10 man stuff could be small cut down versions of the 25 man stuff, less flashy but still good looking. Cuts down dev time in making two new models.
- Tieing themes in helps smaller groups of players feel like they are contributing to the ongoing plotline.

Cons:
- Dev time in R+D would definately increase some.
- More balancing to do.


Think about this though. Had they done it as I've suggested there there would be very little extra dev/design time needed. Sure you'd have to do the quests for the TK opening event. But the dungeons are/were already created. Botanica needs very few changes to turn it from 5 to 10 man. It has a lot of bosses already for a 5 man, the mobs have interesting mechanics already. A few boss tweaks to 10 man, more trash and an additional boss and you're there. Rest of TK is unchanged. MH is unchanged. ZA is unchanged (loot would have initially be designed different but no extra effort). BT would be cut a little but no desing is needed, just a bit more balancing of the Karabor Sewers section. No one would miss the Botanica really. I don't find myself thinking "I wish there was an extra 5 man at level 70". With all the reused heroics of leveling instances and the like, there is tons of choice. They could even have done the Bot/Eye thing with say Underbog (10 man) and SSC.

This is what I'd like to see for the expansion. At present we have 8 level 70 dungeons, + those 8 on heroic, + the 7 leveling dungeons on heroic. If we're looking at similar numbers for the expansion, I'd love if they could hold back one of the level 70 dungeons and one of the leveling dungeons and turn them into 10 mans in a progression chain. I can't see a downside whilst I can see many many positives to it.

That is not the intention. 25-man raiders require more, and more sophisticated, content over time. There is no reason for this to be compromised. If the encounter has to be rethought and simplified for the 10-man or 5-man versions, and if the 25-man version is widely regarded as "better", "more challenging" or "more epic", so be it. All the better, as it provides strong motivation for people to aim for the 25-man cutting edge.

25-mans should not compromise. 10-man and 5-man versions of similar encounters will have to compromise, but this should not influence the design of the original 25-man encounter.

While this sounds intuitively true, I don't think it's actually the case. You can test it right now by going back to Molten Core (legendary for it's appalling design even with 40 people present) with a small handful. Does it feel cavernous? Yes. Does it feel unwelcomely cavernous? Not IMO. Raid dungeons contain the legendary giants of the warcraft world, and it's a well established fantasy trope that legendary giants live in legendarily gigantic houses. You're supposed to feel small and lost, that's part of the point.

Gruul's Lair is a fairly extreme case of sheer emptiness, but it's not significantly larger than, for example, the room above Magtheridon at the end of Blood Furnace. As long as he knocks people back right to the edges sometimes, you get the feel of a giant living in a giant room. I'd say, in fact, that if you were to specifically redesign the geography and put Gruul in a smaller cave, he'd look pretty silly standing by himself in a cubbyhole barely large enough for him to move around in.

Key to the whole concept is that I don't think this should be true. What's necessary is some rethinking about how it's going to work. There is no reason people should expect to clear every (even unlearned) five man the night they enter it in under a few hours. The only reason to do so is that this is how it is implemented in WoW as a rule, but look at BRD and to a lesser extent Uldaman. It wasn't always the case.

I'll try to go over in more detail how I imagine the "five man raid dungeon" working but really, as long as there is progress, challenge and reward, there's no reason for it to also be completeable in one night. As a simple example, imagine five man Karazhan. Like ten-man Karazhan, poorly organised, geared or skilled raids can repeatedly kill Attumen in order to get some epixx. They're not seeing the whole instance, but they are getting geared up and (hopefully) learning to play. If they're not even good enough for Attumen, they can take out the basement animals. When they're feeling more confident they can clear to Moroes and try him.

As long as the instance is on a one-day lockout (as opposed to something longer) this is 5-man friendly, PUG friendly and casual friendly. A PUG can down a single boss, or a handful of bosses, and get (crucially) something that was worth their time. A dedicated small guild can hammer away at Karazhan on some approximation of a raid schedule, working their way towards clearing it in a night.

Back when Naxxramas came out, they put an amusing dig at non-raiders in at Light's Hope chapel. If you talk to Korfax (the guy who crafts Dreadnaught) and get the Dark Iron Scraps quest from him (Dark Iron Scraps being the patronising and unrewarding "content" they introduced for non-raiders along with Naxx) he says the following:

Recently my opinion has changed from thinking that the designers are elitist raiders, to thinking that the designers are well-intentioned, extremely enthusiastic raiders who like many humans simply cannot get their head around the idea that other people don't like what they like. "Surely," they (or many others) would say, "If you'd only try it, you'd understand how much fun it is, and fall in love with it like we have." The folly of this ought to be self-evident.

All of vanilla WoW, and all of TBC, is designed to gently or forcefully encourage you towards 40/25 man raiding. Quest chains ultimately (in the sense of genuine closure) conclude with raid bosses. Content is designed to gradually turn you towards the biggest, latest content. Recent accessibility changes in TBC leave me with a distinct impression of genuine fondness for their work on the part of the designers. "We made this beautiful, complex dungeon. Won't you please form a 25-man raid and try it out?" I hear them say.

Why the tangent? Something I didn't make clear in my initial post (and I'm trying to figure out how to reword it to do so, without making it even longer) is that central and critical to the whole concept is that there should be no exclusivity of content based on group size.

Take that with a pinch of salt. 25-man is 25-man and 5-man is 5-man. You cannot duplicate the feel of 25-man in 5-man. No one expects anyone to do so. Raiding is often compared with sports - I think this is a reasonable comparison. The Olympics is not the local county competition. One is "like" the other but not the same. It's not possible to make them the same, because the differences are absolutely intrinsic. If you want to participate in the Olypmics, you have to do what is necessary to get there.

The same thing applies to group size. If you want to participate in "epic" battle featuring whole armies of players, you have to participate in large-group raids. That's implicit, and no one at all is arguing that point (at least to my knowledge). However, the Olympics does not restrict certain events. It's not the case that in the local county competition you can participate in the high jump, but only Olympic-quality atheletes get to try themselves at the long jump.

The nature of the content is necessarily different; unavoidably so. But the source of the content and the restriction of the content is exactly the same. Events are not restricted by quality or by commitment. Obviously being an Olympic athelete represents a substantial commitment on the athelete's part. Being the best requires talent, skill, dedication and persistance - the same is true of top-level raiding.

Why then, the oft-repeated argument that content should be restricted? Not where it is unavoidable, as I have just belaboured, but where it is avoidable. Why is Kael'thas restricted to a certain group size? Vashj? Illidan? Archimonde? Nefarion? Ragnaros? Kel'Thuzad? Magtheridon? Gruul? Teron Gorefiend, even? In fact, with the possible exception of Kargath, every single notable NPC from existing Warcraft or newly developed (and clumsily foreshadowed) WoW.

There is a reason that they put Illidan on the cover of Burning Crusade, and not Warlord Kalithresh. I often hear from raiders (obviously not all raiders are the same) that what they care about is the intense challenge, and the corresponding reward, and then the further intense challenge. What does this have to do with exclusive access to certain content?

Another analogy I often see made is a straw man involving other computer games. That purchasing a computer game does not give you the "right" to skip straight to the end without bothering to play through the middle. This is a reasonable analogy. However, what the designers of wow and many raiders simply don't seem to understand is that group size is a choice, not a requirement. For whatever reason, people can't or won't form larger groups. Blizzard have formally recognised this now (which is great progress since vanilla).

So let's extend the analogy. Assume we're playing a single player RPG, and at the start you can choose to be a fighter, rogue or wizard. The fighter gameplay is really, extraordinarily good, at least by comparison to any of its competitors. The wizard gameplay is also very good, but very different in nature to the fighter gameplay. Halfway through the game, playing as a fighter, the plot just stops. There are a few more enemies to defeat, but at each stage you are told "your valiant NPC wizard friend has defeated the great enemy, please clean up his lieutenants".

You might say "then play as a wizard" and this would be missing the point. Modern computer games (rightfully, and thankfully) emphasise choice. Having multiple ways to play through a game expands your market and makes good financial sense. To then take this choice away at some point, by having certain choices simply not work any more, is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. If the game allows you to play a fighter or a wizard, both options should be existent and complete.

Why should group size result in certain players playing second fiddle to others, both implicitly and explicitly? Surely skill, dedication and effort (the virtues lauded by raiders and non-raiders alike) should be the relevant factor? What does a choice or preference in size of group have to do with that? It is great that WoW can provide content for solo players, small groups, large groups and very large groups. Who benefits from the content being different for each group size?

The system I've proposed removes this problem whilst at the same time ensuring that there remains a large group cutting edge of players who have access to the best, newest content first.

EDIT

I apologise if I seem terse or dismissive. That is not my intent. As you can see, I struggle with verbosity.

I’m gonna go out on a limb this morning and test this idea out. Because re-tuning most 25 man content is insanity in my opinion.

I think a good idea might be to have sub-dungeons with every new 25 man that comes out. However, the catch being these will be challenges, unlike the current 5 man stuff. And but challenge I mean that wiping on a boss for a few nights would not be unheard of unless in the highest tier gear (even though most badge and pvp is equivalent, but that another discussion) Once the last boss falls of the hardest (or only) instance you will get a portal to the final 25 man boss. Because in the grand scheme of things the final 25 man boss is the only true lore figure. And you could even engage him if you so choose, however the boss will be unchanged. That way even the casuals can listen to the 1-2 minutes of dialogue before the fights. Yes, I know you won’t get to see the death animation or collect the phat lewtz. But you will get the experience that you desire.

This was a very brief and general explanation of my idea, but I’m gonna throw it out there.

No, that's not true. There are many good reasons that 5 mans can and should be easier than 10 or 25 man instances.

The biggest thing is that, if they're not, there's real pressure to NOT bring certain people. For example, in Karazhan having a priest (or two!) along makes your run a lot smoother. There's pressure TO bring a priest for one of your 5 slots.

Now, let's say having a priest makes a 5-man much easier (though it is doable without a priest). This pressure to bring a Priest works out as pressure to NOT bring a Druid, Paladin or Shaman to heal. Now, if you can find a Shadow Priest, you could still bring those other classes... but what if, for example, having a Protection Paladin made it much easier? People would be less willing to go along with groups that had a Feral, Prot Warrior, or Deathknight main tank.

DPS Shaman had a similar problem soon after Shattered Halls was released. "Everyone knew" that you needed tons of CC for that instance, so no one wanted to give up a spot that could hold a Sap, a Sheep, a Trap, an MC or a Fear to take a Shaman. It was six kinds of pain for me and an Enhancement Shaman to get a group for our TK keying chain... We ended up eventually doing it with the both of us and a Hunter as the third dps with this weird kite strat involving earthbind/frost trap. It worked, and it even worked pretty well, but it took a lot more coordination than the other method and it didn't help anyone who wasn't in a guild of close friends because "everyone knew" Shaman were suboptimal for it.


It's a problem you don't run into with 10 mans so much because even if 8/10 spots have predetermined "best" people, that still lets you bring two players who don't bring specifically useful skills to the table.






EDIT TO DISQUETTE:

I agree with your conclusion, but not your evidence. =) Guild posts are usually disproportionately high in the page rank as they have a whole guild worth of people bumping them, so it might or might not show anything that there are so many on page one. However if you look at the few application posts you can see a huge amount of replies/interest for even mediocre people... You will often have 10-20 guilds interested in a single poster. So, I do think you are right about the current situation.

While I agree with you, what you describe is already the case in most of the heroics when approached at a reasonable level of gear. This is a failure in the design of the instance, rather than a weakness of five man design in the first place.

In any case, there is a world of difference between "this instance should not be impossible" and "this instance should be easily puggable in a couple of hours by retards who have never seen it before". You don't have to make something punitive in order to make it non-trivial. As I said, the key is to make it rewarding. Attumen is rewarding. Nalorakk is rewarding. Heroic Watchkeeper Gargolmar is not rewarding. He's a complete waste of time. Intrinsic to the design of most five man dungeons in the TBC paradigm is that if you don't reach and down the final boss in an hour or two, you might as well not have bothered.

Mistakes are magnified in a 25-man in a way that they aren't in a 5-man. It's totally conceivable that a competent 5-man group could make *basically* no mistakes against a boss, at which point the only way to really wipe them is to throw an unpleasant degree of randomness into the mix.

And of course, anything you do in terms of small group content will always be at least partially trivialized by people running it in raid-acquired gear, who will proceed to flood the Blizzard forums with information like "anybody who isn't retarded should be able to clear instance X in 20 minutes or less, and I am appalled that Blizzard is giving loot to casuals for nothing!"

Nice idea here, I see no great difficulty in tuning a 25-man Raid down to a 10-man cap (selectable in the same manner as a Heroic currently is). With 10 people you have a great deal of play with class and gear balances. You will also keep some of the more hardcore players interested in their "farm time" as they can go and do BT 10-man on their Alts, etc, to gear them up.

I would have to draw the line at 25>10 & 10>5 though because retuning 25>5 is simply not possible without significant redesigns which are nothing more than time taken away from fresh new content development.

Very nice concept though, one I wholeheartedly agree with.