My guild wants to double all the points everyone has... and everyone gets double the points for each item dropped....

they want to do this to help others that show up all the time catch up in points.

discuss.

Wouldn't that make it not 0 sum? or are you doubling the cost of everything?

If you just doubled the cost of everything that would really have no effect.

But if you double the points earned then you are breaking the Zero Sum system itself.

Whoah math!

That seems pretty pointless.

Are you talking about catching up in earned JP or current JP?

If its earned, then why shouldnt those who have raided more have earned more JP?

and if it's current, who care? it's zero sum so once they buy some gear, they drop down below even the new people, giving the new people a shot at gear

Uh it will have absolutely no effect.

Its the same reason that you can have items worth 10 jp or a million billion jp and everyone gets items at exactly the same rate.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

The ones who raid the most will be first in line to loot. Keeping your points positive is irrelevant since loot rights are determined by comparison. By giving people more than they earned, all you're going to do is create points out of thin air, ruining the objectivity of a zero-sum system.

Talk to Raylen. He's the one with the happy trigger finger.

So basically this punishes people that have spent points at the time the points are doubled.

in a simple system:
Raider A has 300 points, spent 150. Double points give him 300.
Raider B has 300 points, spent 0. Now has 600.
Raider C has 200 points, spent 0. Now has 400.
Raider D has 0 points, spent 0. Now has 0.
Raider E has 300 points, spent 450. Now has -300. (double the negative number lol).

It breaks the system and doesn't help anyone if they currently have no points, just hurts those who have spent points.

Let me see if I get your question correctly:

"What would happen if we double everyone's points and then instituted a system where we distribute twice as many points as an item costs when it gets picked up?"

First, it would cease to be a zero sum system with twice as many points going into the guild as are being subtracted from it. Current value of the system becomes the total value of items looted instead of zero. Eventually newcomers (who have zero points) are hopelessly behind. If you start adding newcomers at some sort of arbitrary point value (say the mean of the rest of the group) you may as well have had a zero sum system to begin with -- and it would have been less complicated.

Now to switch over your current zero-sum system by doubling everyone's current points (doubling debt as well as positive to preserve zero sum to start with) won't really change anything because everyone is still in the same relative looting position to each other and has the same effect as if you had started the system with double the cost of items...

--- Now that I analyze this a bit better, your question is equivalent to
"What happens if we halve the cost of items and still distribute the original ammount of points?"


I know that you are trying to reward people who raid more often, but the system you propose really hurts new comers and creates unnecessary math headaches. People who raid more are already getting more loot/points, there doesn't really seem to be a good reason to increase that rate.


Edit: I didn't actually do the math, but besides the non zero sum thing and the question about what to do with newcomers, -- The system you propose seems like it would end up being something like this:

If person X raids twice as much as Y, person X will get 4 times as much loot/points compared to person Y ----- [(x/y) * 2]

I had a hard time not trolling this thread.

If you want to reward people who show up all the time, give an "on time bonus". Use the adjustment to give the people who show up on time an extra boost over those who don't.

well... im against the idea... and i want to make sure not out of line...

what my guild wants to do is....

double everyones current points.

then every drop is worth double the points now that they were before.

BUT you only take negative the origonal value.

they want to do this because it will give the people that go to every raid... or the people that are on every raid NOW an advantage over the people that only go on a couple of raids.

there doing this to give the advantage to the people that have been on every raid.

basically ive explained to them we would have to reset the points to zero to keep things even...

like eventually the lowest person would have like 150 points. so we would have to set it back to keep it zero sum.

another question...

so you guys have an exact static 40 every raid? and its completely summed to zero?

So you just want to totally screw the people who don't raid so much? You are all such big loot whores you need to screw everyone who can't raid all the time like you?

they should all just rename themselves Aeturnus or some shit

We don't have a static group, we have 2 MC clears a week, 1 Marathon one night clear with mostly 'vets' and a 3 day + 1 day for rag week long clear, with 3 varying groups.

And I think the system isn't competely 0 sum because of how we work the Crafting materials.

technically it wouldnt be zero sum anymore. but i agree it inflates it. i just cant get them to understand this. im in an officer chat as we speak.. they must have failed math or something.

but do you guys like exchange people in your raids? like the origonally 40 will have maybe like 4 - 5 trades then next week you raid MC?

and yes the problem is all the officers are hardcore, but i know there are people in the guild who arent.

and this WILL screw the casual gamers.

People are constantly moving between single-day clear and one of the split-clears as thier schedule allows.

Look, if they just don't get it then put it into a dollars problem. Make it about bigmacs and working hours at the carwash for dollars and they apply the change.

If they STILL don't get it then find another guild because they are stupid.

Tell them to enjoy it while it lasts.

A month or two down the line, all the resentment this kind of shit will cause will probably cause enough of a rift between the "hardcore" officers and everyone else that everyone else will just leave and form their own guild where the leadership isnt out to fuck them in the ass for its own gain

if you guys have casual gamers theres no way you can always have a static 40

Frequent raider goes on two MC clears - gets 150 points
Casual raider goes on one MC clear - gets 75 points

Frequent raider loots one item - loses 100 points
Casual raider loots one item - loses 100 points

Frequent raider point total = 50 points
Casual raider point total = -25 points

Now apply that to months of raiding. It doesn't take a nuclear physicist to figure out that the frequent raider doesn't need extra help to get loot rights. Your "officers" are a bunch of greedy, loot whore retards who might as well just tell the "casual" players in the guild to piss off and not even bother asking to go on raids.

"Hurrrr! I done got 50 bajillion points while yer only havin' 1 bajillion! I gits to loooooot!"

When Kaubel calls people loot whores you know it's bad.

Sometimes I forget what static means and say it the wrong way, it's a Dynamic raid, my IP on the other hand is static.

What?

We clear MC twice a week. One group is more or less the same people, with the occasional replacement due to scheduling conflicts or an attempt to keep loot from rotting. The other MC clearing takes place over several days, is divided into three, 3-boss raids, and is comprised of everyone else. Those attending the latter will be present on one, two, or all three trips.