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03/19/08, 9:51 AM
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#31
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Mike Tyson
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Originally Posted by Legh
You may have missed my previous post with the link of a dev stating (or at least I understood it that way) that despawns of the mob and consequent respawn would generate a new GUID for it 
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Hmm, so if you wipe to a boss fully and it leashes, it keeps the original loot (and GUID) but if you leash it and it vanishes entirely upon crossing the leash point, and then respawns anew a minute later, then the loot is rerandomized? Makes sense.
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03/19/08, 10:00 AM
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#32
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Global Warming lets me bike more.
Nemmie
Blood Elf Paladin
No WoW Account (EU)
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Originally Posted by Praetorian
Hmm, so if you wipe to a boss fully and it leashes, it keeps the original loot (and GUID) but if you leash it and it vanishes entirely upon crossing the leash point, and then respawns anew a minute later, then the loot is rerandomized? Makes sense.
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So if it were possible to leash Illidan you could keep leashing him until the server lets you link a Warglaive, then kill him.
At least that's how I understood all of the above?
Ofcourse, only possible if the server cache is empty and there are no warglaives online.
This kinda makes me hope they open a new server so I can roll a rogue. You should be able to guarantee some Warglaives ;-)
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03/19/08, 10:02 AM
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#33
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Mike Tyson
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Doesn't Illidan despawn and reappear as a friendly NPC when you wipe to him?
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03/19/08, 10:03 AM
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#34
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Jaedenar (EU)
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Originally Posted by Praetorian
Doesn't Illidan despawn and reappear as a friendly NPC when you wipe to him?
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Correct.
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03/19/08, 10:04 AM
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#35
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Warrior
Sargeras
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Originally Posted by Praetorian
Doesn't Illidan despawn and reappear as a friendly NPC when you wipe to him?
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Why yes, yes he does.
Now, who didn't kill Illidan last night and wants to test this theory? 
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03/19/08, 10:07 AM
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#36
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Mike Tyson
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This should be easily confirmable on one of the recent new servers, and it doesn't even have to be with Warglaives. On a brand new server with no established raiding guilds, stuff like Vashj loot should not exist, and anyone can zone into SSC and try to link some Vashj drops, and repeat each time they soft-reset the instance.
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03/19/08, 10:10 AM
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#37
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Mike Tyson
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Originally Posted by Emeraude
Why yes, yes he does.
Now, who didn't kill Illidan last night and wants to test this theory? 
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Well there's nothing to test on most servers. On Mal'Ganis someone with Warglaives will probably log on soon after a server reset and there's no way of really knowing for sure if they have or not. Certainly on most servers this won't work.
Also wouldn't it follow that the item has been "seen" on the server once it appears once in someone's instance, even if it's not obtained by a player, if this theory is true? So even if no one has any glaives, someone zoning into a BT instance in which a warglaive exists on Illidan's table might make the item linkable.
The only way to properly test this would be to know for a fact that no one on a given server has a piece of loot, and then to know for a fact that you are the first person to enter the zone in which that loot might spawn after a server reset. Right?
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03/19/08, 10:10 AM
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#38
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Outland (EU)
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After you kill supremus you can /Target illidan. I don't know if this means he is actually there, I would just assume it does.
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03/19/08, 10:17 AM
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#39
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Witch doctors park in gear
Cadfael
Worgen Priest
No WoW Account (EU)
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Originally Posted by lightstrike
I highly doubt that. Most likely, it's a process that runs all instances of an "instance-zone", or even a process that runs all instanced zones. This is necessary to allow static data sharing, reducing not only the amount of memory required, but also the amount of preprocessing on that data when spawning a new instance...
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A blue stated that long ago during a discussion of I believe also loot generation. It was before the forum change so the post is certainly lost but might be available in some bluetracker. I don't have it at hand though.
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The fact that they're using 64bit GUIDs for unit ids, is also a sign that these are to be globally identified. Interestingly, the top word of the GUIDs match for the same mob, which could indicate that the GUIDs are a combination of some kind of ZoneId, mob type, and/or something else, stored in the top word, and then the actual 32bit generated Id...
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That's right, though Slouken said that quite some time ago: WoW Forums -> Upcoming 2.4 Changes - Concise List
The "upper-middle" part is the mob-id. Taking Vaeys' example, Vexallus - NPCs - World of Warcraft is Vexallus. Enter 24744 in DEC, convert to Hex and you'll get 60A8. Compare with the combat log GUIDs:
0xF1300060A804903B,"Vexallus"
0xF1300060A801AFE3,"Vexallus"
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WoWhead pulls these mob-id numbers out of the MPQ in one of the dbc files. So the lower 3 Bytes denote the variable ID, the following 2 (3?)Bytes denote the mob id and the uppermost part is probably some flags.
Yes, hence why I thought it would be interesting to test that. Because there's two ways to reset an encounter; either they destroy and re-spawn all the involved entities, in which case most likely they come in with new GUIDs, or, they hide-reset-show them. If they just hide/unhide then the time-of-birth timestamp probably doesn't chance. If it's recreating the involved entities, then most likely, the new entities will have fresh new GUIDs and a new timestamp, influencing which loot you'll get... This is assuming that the loot is generated when the mob dies, from the saved timestamp, which is itself highly speculative...
Would be interesting to understand how they implemented these things...
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Loot is generated on spawn, its really an old argument and confirmed at least twice by blue. Also the community long ago before any confirmation found that there are specific mobs who wear the weapon they are going to drop IF they have that weapon in their loot table. I've seen and confirmed this myself. This would not be possible if loot is determined on kill. It really happens on spawn time.
So if we were to test this with 2.4 we need to track the bosses that are not there when the instance gets created but spawn later. We can assume this is true for Kil'Jaeden. It certainly isn't true for Kalecgos (unless Sartohvarr or whatever his name is, is spawned dynamically, as we don't loot Kalecgos after all). Brutallus is always present and Felmyst could be dynamically spawned as it is part of the event with Brutallus and Madrigosa. I have no idea about M'uru and Twin Eredars, save that M'uru has 2 phases and one probably loots Entropius.
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03/19/08, 10:18 AM
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#40
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Super Macho Man
<>
Orc Shaman
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Zarqon
Regarding the randomness. There are actualy Quantum Random Number Generators available as PCI cards. Using quantum states, the numbers are truly random, and can be delivered with bitrates up to 16 Mbps with the best technology today (see e.g. quantum random number generator, QRNG, True, TRNG)
Additionally, I know from talking to some of the people behind that company, that their largest customers are infact online gaming companies, but whether that is online poker games or similar, or games like WoW I don't know. It does however illustrate that the technique is commercially viable and there is a chance they are used in WoW as well.
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They aren't. WoW uses a specific PRNG algorithm, although I can't source that - it's IBAA, I believe.
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Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
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03/19/08, 10:34 AM
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#41
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Warrior
Jaedenar (EU)
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Originally Posted by Kalman
They aren't. WoW uses a specific PRNG algorithm, although I can't source that - it's IBAA, I believe.
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Roana posted that at the very beginning of page 2 of this very same thread 
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03/19/08, 10:40 AM
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#42
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Witch doctors park in gear
Cadfael
Worgen Priest
No WoW Account (EU)
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Originally Posted by Praetorian
The only way to properly test this would be to know for a fact that no one on a given server has a piece of loot, and then to know for a fact that you are the first person to enter the zone in which that loot might spawn after a server reset. Right?
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Yes, that's how I understand the process. Since for a normal live realm you cannot guarantee you are the first to spawn a raid instance, it's probably easiest if one concentrates on observing later bosses which spawn in on player-interaction. So they are not present when the instance spawns and possibly they respawn on wipe.
It's easier to track server wide raid progression and with that the possibility to engage/activate a boss than trying to ensure no one else runs into the instance and spawns it.
If you furthermore are the first guild to reach a boss you can check to see if between each pull/attempt, the available loot for linking increases or not. If it does, you can for the first few pulls predict what he would drop. (Unless the entire loot table becomes active for linking once the boss spawns in for the first time)
I think 2.4 is a unique opportunity to gain a bit of insight into this mechanism.
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03/19/08, 10:44 AM
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#43
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The beatings will stop once morale improves
Nurru
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Cadfael
Loot is generated on spawn, its really an old argument and confirmed at least twice by blue. Also the community long ago before any confirmation found that there are specific mobs who wear the weapon they are going to drop IF they have that weapon in their loot table. I've seen and confirmed this myself. This would not be possible if loot is determined on kill. It really happens on spawn time.
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I know this was the case with Everquest, but I've never seen anything similar in WoW. Do you have any examples?
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03/19/08, 10:51 AM
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#44
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Jaedenar (EU)
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but I've never seen anything similar in WoW. Do you have any examples?
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Some of the humanoid casters in Blasted Lands wear the weaon they are going to drop. Personally confirmed this pre tbc (yet it was already 2.0), but havent checked after that.
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03/19/08, 11:01 AM
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#45
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Warrior
Sargeras
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Ouch of curiosity why can I link items like [Item not found!] or [Teebu's Blazing Longsword] without crashing? You'd think these items don't exist on the server just yet no? Or they're rare enough that a mob/GM wouldn't spawn with them.
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