• Snowy

Not sure about trash, but who really cares about trash anyways.

The only accurate parses we have are of Brutallus, and it's definitely there -- miss rate down, parry rate normal, dodge rate way down.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

Enkidu

It's definitely true for the robot trash also. I've had no issues with dodge on the other trash however (including twins gauntlet on PTR).
I've been wondering what was going on with my dodge rate since PTR, getting crushed by twins had me boggled considering I was far beyond crush proof, etc.

Thank you for finding this.

 

• Chicken

That annoys me really, while none of the first three bosses in Sunwell crush that I know of, that is extremely painful for achieving crush immunity as a Paladin even in tier 6 quality gear, especially if you're trying to maximize your health. I'm personally a bit more than 10% short with that 25% reduction; there's no way I can easily make up for that without sacrificing huge amounts of my other stats.

I can understand the need to make bosses hit harder on tanks even if they have high avoidance, but it really stings from a Paladin point of view to basically have our reliable uncrushability even on a dual wielder mob taken away from us in the Sunwell Plateau.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Exemplar

-20% dodge? They really don't want bears in Sunwell, eh?

 

Duodecimal

Ehm... amusing. Didn't they say something about doing away with the crush mechanic?

 

Nezralix

At that level of gear, it should affect druids as much as it affects warriors.

 

flyingtoastr

If anything Warriors still have it the easiest of the tanks on crushing mobs. Pallys are clearly going to have the worst of it since even in near perfect gear they have to gem to reach the normal uncrushable level, and its going to nearly impossible to get another 25%.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Questioner

It will affect druids and paladins far more than warriors if crushing blows are not removed, due to the high percentage of block rating on shield block. Paladins cheered as we finally got a T6 set designed for tanking serious content with enough dodge on it to let us use holy shield without stacking shield block rating, and then they design the next raid instance to cut off 66% of the dodge they give us? As you can see, I am not happy.

 

• goss

The paladin uncrushability issue seems like a pretty large oversight. Presumably people have used prot paladins on Kalec. If so, are you getting crushed (WWS would be great!)?

Edit: Oh yeah, Brut can't crush. Whoops. :x

 

◊ zeidrich

I tanked on Kalec wednesday. Here is the melee column from our entire run (trash and all boss attempts)

So, no crushes. No crits. Just hits. And I'm /sure/ that I wasn't maintaining 100% holy shield uptime

Edit: Likewise here is Sathrovarr's data:

It looks like he will crit, but not crush.

Likewise looking at others parses of Brutallus, he shows no crushes on druids, or any other class for that matter. Not trying to spoiler anything, but I don't want fear of crushing blows to cause raid leaders to bench their Protection Paladins.

 

• goss

I can buy Kalec / Sathrovarr don't crush (Didn't a blue poster at one point say they wanted to move away from CB's as a mechanic anyway). But how on earth could he crit you with that gear?

 

• Chicken

Kalecgos, Sathrovarr the Corrupter and Brutallus all can not crush, so reporting on them isn't going to show much of interest. I'm unsure about the latter bosses.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the melee mob of the Eredar Twins can crush, but it's kind of hard to get any info from them considering they aren't available yet.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

◊ zeidrich

Those aren't hits on me. Those are all the hits he dished out. To Kalecgos the npc, to someone who pulls aggro after the tank dies, etc. etc. etc. Hits on me was the first page.

 

◊ zeidrich

Well, I haven't seen any data on that fight. We'll have to see when we get there. I just don't want people to be completely alarmist when so far every fight I've seen in there does not crush, and the others that are left are inaccessible.

Edit: Also, apologies to the mods for double posting.

 

• Snowy

We used a bear tank on Brutallus just fine.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

Hypatia

The fact that it's -20% dodge is really just because all tanks can dodge, but only paladins and warriors can parry. If you look at overall avoidance numbers, bears can get pretty massive avoidance numbers, and it's all dodge. So you want to look at the overall avoidance: warrior's parry + dodge + miss - 25% vs. druid's dodge + miss - 25% should be pretty comparable.

If anything, whoever has the lowest avoidance total will end up with a smaller damage increase. If you had 75% avoidance and take a 25% hit, you're taking twice as much damage. If you had 50% avoidance and take a 25% hit, you're only taking 1.5x as much damage. (But really, that's because avoidance scales better than linear.)

Anyway: Short form is that the fact that it's all dodge and no parry is irrelevant.

 

• constantius

Actually, even with the -dodge% change, I (as a healer) *prefer* bear tanks. If I could, I'd probably setup 3 bear tanks (our strat is 3, not 2 tanks) and sit the prot warrior(s). It's that much of a difference.

A bear tank with Stomp is healable. A warrior really isn't, unless he gets lucky. And I hate depending on RNG for survival.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

• Snowy

This isn't exactly true either but I don't want to edge closer to strategy discussion.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

Sounder

The above is too long for a macro -- and anyway it's poor configuration to hit a macro every session when such things should really go in startup files.

- Can the above be accomplished with an edit to <wow install dirrectory>/WTF/Config.wtf? If so, what would be the format?

- What would be the line that removes Officer chat from the default chat frame? As reported above in the thread the keyword "OFFICER" does not work.

- While we're on the topic, I have a macro that I hit every session to do this: /run AuctionFrame:SetScale(1.1). How can that be implemented in Config.wtf, if it's possible?

Thank you.

 

Howitzer

Yep, same here. We used 2 bears on Brutallus and it worked perfectly well. The healers were much more concerned with the Warrior getting gibbed than the druids.

 

nfw

So since parry rating is 1.25 times as expensive as dodge rating, if I can somehow convert all my dodge to parry I'd gain avoidance with against this effect, unless I'm at over 100% dodge? Maybe finally a use for that ZA trinket.

 

• Nisu

Officer chat is GUILD_OFFICER, not just OFFICER.

As for how best to implement it, pick an addon - preferably a simple one that you don't update, since the changes have to be redone every time. Find the PLAYER_ENTERING_WORLD (I think that's the syntax) function. Somewhere inside the function, paste any /script commands you want to run on load, without the "/script" header itself. I don't have access to my WoW install right now, but if this isn't clear I can copy/paste the relevant lines. If I was inserting these into the AutoBar addon, it would look something like:

function AutoBar:PLAYER_ENTERING_WORLD()
stuff
ChatFrame_RemoveMessageGroup(DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME, "GUILD")
stuff

 

• Falk

No one has explicitly said it yet, but it's going to come up sooner than later, so I'll just clarify this in advance.

There is ABSOLUTELY, absolutely no reason a -20% dodge, -5% miss debuff affects druids (or paladins assuming non-crushing bosses) more than warriors.

You could have 60% dodge, 5% miss on a druid for total of 65% avoidance, vs 10% miss 30% dodge, 25% parry on a warrior for 65% avoidance. Apply the buff to each and you get 35% dodge on the druid, and 5% miss, 5% dodge, 25% parry on the warrior, both totalling 35% avoidance.


The following is mostly guesswork as to Blizzard's design paradigm for Sunwell: I've repeated it a few times in EJ chat so I'll go ahead and post it here instead to quicklink people.

At T6 level and beyond, it's not rare to have most MTs hit 70% avoidance or more with full raid buffs and consumables. With that in mind, Blizzard -could- have tuned Sunwell with that assumption, and the only two options you'd have for boss melee strength would either have tank healers holding their asses and swimming around in extra mana (too little damage overall) or playing patchwerk healing with every single boss. This is due to only 1/3-1/4 of the bosses's hits landing, and how possibly spiky that would be.

The obvious answer would be to introduce a way to reduce tank avoidance, and then tune boss melee strength and other abilities around the fact that tanks now avoid less. And believe me on this, healers have an easier time this way. To offset the fact that the hit table is now FUBAR for paladins (and even possibly warriors) because of the 1-roll system that includes crushings, crushings are disabled on the bosses. (The fact that Twins can crush is, in my two-cent opinion, either an oversight or a bug, though it of course could be a deliberate design decision just to differenciate tanking it vs the previous bosses)

Why 20% dodge and 5% miss? Simple answer is, that's an easy way to hit a net loss of 25% avoidance that all 3 tanking class are guaranteed to feel.

 

Hypatia

Er. What? Avoidance is linear. Unless you have less than 20% dodge, this effect will reduce your avoidance by 25%, period. The effect doesn’t make you have 0.8 dodge for every 1 dodge you used to have, it subtracts 20% from your chance to dodge an attack. The relative costs of parry and dodge don’t matter. (Except perhaps in that dodge is still the most effective avoidance stat per stat point.)

 

◊ Kalman

If I understood him right, he meant if he could somehow trade all his dodge for parry, he'd come out ahead (which is true).