Brutallus also has a fairly unique threat table based on some of the few taunt resists we have gotten (about 3 in 3 nights of attempts). Mass taunt will actually make him stick to tanks as opposed to only temporarily re-assigning target. I would assume Mocking Blow would cause the same result. This is more than likely intentional.
3:29, warrior taunt resists. At this point, aggro is on me, and a warlock has 105% of my threat.
3:34, warrior blows Challenging. Brutallus faces towards Warrior group for a meteor slash. (Slash would have wiped us if directed at my group)
3:40, Challenging Shout debuff wears out. Brutallus reverts to highest threat, unfortunately for the warlock, pastes him, then goes back to me.
3:42, warrior taunts again. Attempt goes on as normal.
For guilds using 7 healers, what would you recommend for the healer's composition and healing assignments? Also, if using 8 healers, who does that extra healer ends up healing, tanks, raid or burns?
We use 2 holy paladins, 3 resto shaman, 1 resto druid and 1 holy priest. 2 paladins and 2 shaman are on the tanks exclusively, 1 shaman heals slash damage and the druid and priest are on burn. We only run one shadow priest and give it pretty much exclusively to our DPS.
When we were trying it with 8 we put an extra healer on slash damage but found for us it really wasn't necessary.
Note that relying on an addon like that is risky business. A triple meteorslashed burn victim will take nearly as much damage (~2500/sec) during seconds 30-40 as he will during the last 6 seconds.
Yes, I had that thought also. The addon will put a timer on the unitframe for a player affected and a small number in brackets indicating the number of stacks of Slash - it's up to the Burn healer to judge the damage from there. The main thing is that the Burn healer doesn't have to constantly BigWigs timer bars and cross-reference with raid frames, which should make life a little easier.
We don't have any especially big issues with Burn healing, but anything to make life easier is win in my book and I thought it would be a nice little learning project for me
For guilds using 7 healers, what would you reccomend for the healer's composition and healing assignments? Also, if using 8 healers, who does that extra healer ends up healing, tanks, raid or burns?
2 holy pallies, 2 holy priests, 1 resto druid, 2 resto shamans is what we use
1 Holy priest on tank
2 Holy Pal on tank
1 Resto shaman casting chain heal on tank (bounces to the raid behind him)
1 Resto Druid keeping LB on both tanks + burn target
1 Holy Pal healing the last seconds of burn, spams heals on tank rest of the time
The 3 shadow priests do the rest.
We will bring 4 shadow priests next shot :P
How, exactly, does Nether Protection work on Brutallus?
Things I know:
1. It does not proc off Burn.
2. It does proc off Slash. You will still take the Slash damage you should be taking, but your debuff will be cleared, thus reducing the damage on the next Slash. If you have 0 or 1 stack of the debuff this does come in handy.
Things I don't know:
1. If you eat a Slash and take a Burn within the next 4 seconds, does Burn still hit you or are you considered immune?
2. If you have a Burn and eat a Slash, and NP procs, do you immunity off the Burn?
We got our first kill last week running 8 healers. 2 holy paladins, 3 resto shamans, 2 priests, 1 druid.
1 Druid on burns
1 Paladin on burns
1 Holy Paladin on tank
2 Priests on tank
1 Shaman on tank
2 Shamans primarily on tank, topping off raid when needed with chain heals
This week we've been having trouble repeating our kill although we have a slightly different healing arrangement which I think could be part of the problem although we are consistently losing people to burns. Tonight's comp was 2 Holy Paladins, 2 Resto druids, 1 Holy Priest, 3 resto shamans. We tried having the two resto druids on burn duty but they just couldn't keep the burns alive. We then swapped back to last week's burn healing setup, paladin/resto druid on burns. For some reason we still had people dying to burns although it was primarily with people who had 2 or 3 slashes. That left 1 paladin, 1 resto druid, 1 holy priest and 3 shamans leftover. All of them were primarily on the tank, with 2 of the shamans occasionally filling in any gaps in raid healing. We had numerous wipes either from a dps with burn dying or a tank death. We only saw the enrage once tonight and that was after we lost 2 dps and ended up wiping at 5%.
I have a couple of quick questions if others wouldn't mind answering.
1. Is it even worth it to run 2 resto druids?
2. Should our holy paladin and resto druid be having trouble keeping people alive when they have 2 slashes + burn?
3. In either makeup is there any better way to assign healing so it is more effective?
You guys can definately get away with 2 rogues...as I remember both you and Shin put out some of the best damage in the game. Nice to see you are alive and well tho bro
How, exactly, does Nether Protection work on Brutallus?
Things I don't know:
1. If you eat a Slash and take a Burn within the next 4 seconds, does Burn still hit you or are you considered immune?
2. If you have a Burn and eat a Slash, and NP procs, do you immunity off the Burn?
1. You are Immune, so Burn does not hit you.
2. Correct, you'll shed Burn in this instance.
There's not really any way to game Nether Protection on Brutallus; occasionally the proc will come at just the right time and you'll get out of a Burn. But it's not like you can eat Slashes hoping for a proc to clear your Burn; if you don't get that proc, you'll die and that's really bad. A Destro lock should react to Burn just like anyone else, and thank his lucky stars if the proc works out in his favor.
2. Should our holy paladin and resto druid be having trouble keeping people alive when they have 2 slashes + burn?
3. In either makeup is there any better way to assign healing so it is more effective?
I believe two resto druids should be able to heal Burn just fine. It may be lack of experience or linked to 2.
They should have a lot of trouble healing the last burn ticks (+150% fire damage and 3200 ticks = 8k ticks per second which is most definitely unhealable on anything). Tell your DPS to run to the safespot quicker. Meteor Slash should run out by the time the last burn ticks come in or they will die. Tell them that depending on the way you pull Brutallus to the tanks, the exact position of the safe spots will change slightly and that they should be well aware of it.
Unless some of your healers are worse than others I do not think so; you would probably want to assign those to spam heals on the MT instead of giving them such a challenging job as burn healing.
For groups which have killed Brutallus - we have had a couple of healing-based wipes our first day and a really good "last try" going all the way to enrage and 20% remaining. Groups were stacked, but most DDs were unbuffed and really bored by all the healing/tank discussions.
But 2.1 million HP is still a daunting number, so if anyone could give us a few hints whether we might need more DPS or whether we might be fine once we have everyone buffed and motivated, I would greatly appreciate it.
At 20%, flasks and stuff isn't likely to do the trick alone. You did approximately 22000 raid dps (8m damage in 360 seconds). I know for me as a shadow priest my dps increases by slightly more than 5% as I flask/oil/food up. Even with a generous number of 10% increase on all your dps, You'll still be at less than 25000 raid dps - 4000 short of the 29000 raid dps that you need.
On the other hand, you might see very significant increases from people actually trying their best, as well as starting to feel more comfortable with the encounter. You'll see increased dps just from getting under 20% on all your mages and dps warrior(s). You might just be fine. Make sure you optimize heroisms (run them in the highest dps, non-threat capped groups) and raid dps buffs. Every little bit counts.
For groups which have killed Brutallus - we have had a couple of healing-based wipes our first day and a really good "last try" going all the way to enrage and 20% remaining. Groups were stacked, but most DDs were unbuffed and really bored by all the healing/tank discussions.
We were just below 20% at enrage, unconsumabled, last night. Then we juiced and killed him at 6:09.
So yes, your DPS is basically on track.
edit: We were running 4 mages and timing consumables/cooldowns for <20%, so we saw a massive increase in RDPS during that final phase as 4 mages went drums/veins/heroism/destruction/trinket/execute.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I believe two resto druids should be able to heal Burn just fine. It may be lack of experience or linked to 2.
They should have a lot of trouble healing the last burn ticks (+150% fire damage and 3200 ticks = 8k ticks per second which is most definitely unhealable on anything). Tell your DPS to run to the safespot quicker. Meteor Slash should run out by the time the last burn ticks come in or they will die. Tell them that depending on the way you pull Brutallus to the tanks, the exact position of the safe spots will change slightly and that they should be well aware of it.
2 resto druids can heal burn absolutely 100% fine, and it's actually the optimal choice.
2 3-stack LBs (~ 1600 H/s), 2 rejuvs (680 H/s), and for the final 6 ticks, 2 Regrowths, and a SM if needed. Total is well over 3000 H/s not including SM, which more than covers the 1800x3 + 3200x3 combo.
If someone still has Slash up anywhere past the 30 second mark on their Burn, just let them die; they're a moron. Full stop. It's not the Burn healers' job to heal some idiot who decided that taking 2 phases of top dmg is a good thing to do because it LETS HIM DEEEPS MOAR.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I believe two resto druids should be able to heal Burn just fine. It may be lack of experience or linked to 2.
They should have a lot of trouble healing the last burn ticks (+150% fire damage and 3200 ticks = 8k ticks per second which is most definitely unhealable on anything). Tell your DPS to run to the safespot quicker. Meteor Slash should run out by the time the last burn ticks come in or they will die. Tell them that depending on the way you pull Brutallus to the tanks, the exact position of the safe spots will change slightly and that they should be well aware of it.
Unless some of your healers are worse than others I do not think so; you would probably want to assign those to spam heals on the MT instead of giving them such a challenging job as burn healing.
For groups which have killed Brutallus - we have had a couple of healing-based wipes our first day and a really good "last try" going all the way to enrage and 20% remaining. Groups were stacked, but most DDs were unbuffed and really bored by all the healing/tank discussions.
But 2.1 million HP is still a daunting number, so if anyone could give us a few hints whether we might need more DPS or whether we might be fine once we have everyone buffed and motivated, I would greatly appreciate it.
The first time we ever made it to enrage was 25% or so, then we started to min max as much as possible, blust fire mages under 20%, pop elixir of demonslaying/destro pots on every CD, cycle bloodlusts through lock group, etc. Then we wiped at 5 or 6% then we killed him shortly after.
Don't think healing or DPS is an issue at this point of our guild but right now seems like positioning for the soak groups. From what I have gotten, those targetted by Burn should be moving to the safe spot and not spread it to those around them. We often found ourselves having people "stuck" in the middle of a soak group and eat meteor slashes, so I think we can put paladins and mages in the middle or something who can iceblock/divine shield, or even blink out (if that's possible).
Two rows of people. Tank in the middle-ish of the group. If you get burn and you're in the front row ... you run forward, into Brutallus' model, and then loop around to the safe spot. If you're on the end, do whatever makes you happy. If you're on the back, hit 'S' a couple of times, then go wherever.
If your raid can't figure that out ... you may want to reconsider Sunwell.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Two rows of people. Tank in the middle-ish of the group. If you get burn and you're in the front row ... you run forward, into Brutallus' model, and then loop around to the safe spot. If you're on the end, do whatever makes you happy. If you're on the back, hit 'S' a couple of times, then go wherever.
If your raid can't figure that out ... you may want to reconsider Sunwell.
That helps; we spent about 1.5 hours on him (ever) last night and got him pretty low, I'm sure we will have the DPS to kill him tonight once this issue gets fixed. We used three rows across and sometimes three deep but again, just came here for clarification.
If someone still has Slash up anywhere past the 30 second mark on their Burn, just let them die; they're a moron.
I'm going to go ahead and assume you meant "the 40 second mark" here. It's even possible to have Slash into the final 20 seconds of burn if you had maximum bad luck and the slash hit a second or two after Burn, just before you could move out of the area.
2 resto druids can heal burn absolutely 100% fine, and it's actually the optimal choice.
2 3-stack LBs (~ 1600 H/s), 2 rejuvs (680 H/s), and for the final 6 ticks, 2 Regrowths, and a SM if needed. Total is well over 3000 H/s not including SM, which more than covers the 1800x3 + 3200x3 combo.
Having two druids handle burn sounds nice on paper, but neglects one important thing: While the first druid in the raid has an important place, the second druid has trouble justifying their raidspot in a 7-healer raid setup.
Lets assume your running with a 7 healer setup, which seems very common for Brutallus, you will likely have:
- 3 resto shamans (your enhancement shaman brings to a total of 4 shamans, possibly even 5 if you have enhancement + elemental)
- 1 priest (DS spec)
- 1 druid (handles burn)
- 2 Paladins (Give two blessings - and your retribution paladin will provide the 3rd blessing)
In a typical 7 healer setup, a 2nd druid simply loses their raid spot to: shamans - who offer amazing totems/heroism, priests - who offer inspiration and Divine Spirit and Paladins - who offer powerful blessings and powerful MT healing.
Its the bane of resto druids at the moment = Why bring two, when you could bring one and take another class thats offering something more important to the raid? The only time I can imagine really wanting to bring two druids is if a guild is short on shamans, or geared enough to meet the DPS benchmark and not care for Divine Spirit from a priest / prepared to lose a pally blessing - or their Druid player is much more skilled than Class X healer - but hopefully guilds have weeded out most of those players by Sunwell.
Having two druids handle burn sounds nice on paper, but neglects one important thing: While the first druid in the raid has an important place, the second druid has trouble justifying their raidspot in a 7-healer raid setup.
Lets assume your running with a 7 healer setup, which seems very common for Brutallus, you will likely have:
- 3 resto shamans (your enhancement shaman brings to a total of 4 shamans, possibly even 5 if you have enhancement + elemental)
- 1 priest (DS spec)
- 1 druid (handles burn)
- 2 Paladins (Give two blessings - and your retribution paladin will provide the 3rd blessing)
In a typical 7 healer setup, a 2nd druid simply loses their raid spot to: shamans - who offer amazing totems/heroism, priests - who offer inspiration and Divine Spirit and Paladins - who offer powerful blessings and powerful MT healing.
Its the bane of resto druids at the moment = Why bring two, when you could bring one and take another class thats offering something more important to the raid? The only time I can imagine really wanting to bring two druids is if a guild is short on shamans, or geared enough to meet the DPS benchmark and not care for Divine Spirit from a priest / prepared to lose a pally blessing - or their Druid player is much more skilled than Class X healer - but hopefully guilds have weeded out most of those players by Sunwell.
Why bring more than the minimum of any healer OTHER than shamans? There's really no direct benefit to bringing more than one priest, two or three paladins depending on whether you have any hybrids, one tree, and then as many shamans as you can stuff into the raid. Each shaman you add has a direct effect on your raid damage while being a very powerful healer. Not really fair to argue that additional druids are any less useful than additional paladins or priests.
Having two druids handle burn sounds nice on paper, but neglects one important thing: While the first druid in the raid has an important place, the second druid has trouble justifying their raidspot in a 7-healer raid setup.
Lets assume your running with a 7 healer setup, which seems very common for Brutallus, you will likely have:
- 3 resto shamans (your enhancement shaman brings to a total of 4 shamans, possibly even 5 if you have enhancement + elemental)
- 1 priest (DS spec)
- 1 druid (handles burn)
- 2 Paladins (Give two blessings - and your retribution paladin will provide the 3rd blessing)
In a typical 7 healer setup, a 2nd druid simply loses their raid spot to: shamans - who offer amazing totems/heroism, priests - who offer inspiration and Divine Spirit and Paladins - who offer powerful blessings and powerful MT healing.
Its the bane of resto druids at the moment = Why bring two, when you could bring one and take another class thats offering something more important to the raid? The only time I can imagine really wanting to bring two druids is if a guild is short on shamans, or geared enough to meet the DPS benchmark and not care for Divine Spirit from a priest / prepared to lose a pally blessing - or their Druid player is much more skilled than Class X healer - but hopefully guilds have weeded out most of those players by Sunwell.
Except the fight is very possible with 8 healers (and a little bit more predictable imo), and in such a setup 2 druids is pretty nice.
3x shaman
2x druid
2x paladin
1x priest
In a 7 healer setup...the extra heroism shouldn't matter because your extra dpser is making that up. Either way, 2 druids is fine for Brutallus. You have a point about the "uselessness" of resto druids, but the guy above me stated my sentiments on the subject already.
2 druids for tree aura double-stack isn't useless in a fight where you want to maximize dps output, and minimize healing required. 'HoT and forget' is a powerful raid healing solution, not to mention double the blooms on tanks alongside their nasty armada of HoTs means for less spiking.
Odd you would suggest 8 healers with 2 druids though. I'd venture to go the opposite and risk saying from 7 to 6. With dual innervates you completely negate any sort of healer requirement for an sps, and trees can sustain their own amazing heals for a substantial amount of time. Empirically speaking, trees have the lowest overheal of the 4 classes, and in a fight that's all about optimization, I fail to see how this isn't weighing heavily in their favor. I suppose it's all about guild and raid composition, but there are plenty of smart ways to incorporate trees.
That being said, yes, shams are amazing..
04/12/08, 6:49 AM
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