Use last stand on one, a nightmare vine on another, a clicky avoidance trinket on a third, another nightmare vine, another clicky activation, and shield wall for the final one, and your tank survivability will be noticeably better. Ask a hunter to keep up scorpid sting and consider having a warlock spec affliction with shadow embrace as well.
I agree with you in concept, but your rotation is off. Nightmare seed has a 3 min cooldown so you can only use it every third stomp with a 2 tank rotation. If you want to use 2 seeds in the fight, you need to use one on the first, second or third stomp (depending on what other cooldowns you're using, the pocketwatch is an excellent choice for this fight). As someone already mentioned, you can also time the stomp/taunt transitions later in the fight to have a couple stomps on the OT.
It looks more like seed -> moroes -> last stand -> moroes -> seed -> moroes for me. As the first tank, I usually don't tank the full duration of the first stomp, so I can use a sub-optimal cooldown for it.
You can't come into a thread spouting off about how dumb someones way of killing a mob is when you've not been able to kill the mob in question with your own superior way. So don't run in spouting off and calling people names in a thread you have no business participating in.
You are from Drama and this is to be expected (say hi to Killaz for me and we have found your Lycos) from members of your guild, but here's a hint: There are many and more people who have killed Brutallus and are telling you that your strategy is inefficient. Stop being obtuse and argumentative.
It looks more like seed -> moroes -> last stand -> moroes -> seed -> moroes for me. As the first tank, I usually don't tank the full duration of the first stomp, so I can use a sub-optimal cooldown for it.
Oh yes, I was relatively sure the CDs would interfere the way I wrote it, but the idea was really the important point to communicate. Apologies for the inaccuracy, I'm not the actual tank so I couldn't recall off the top of my head the order late at night. I will say that this was easily one of the biggest differences I experienced in the ease of tank healing while we worked on Brutallus. I'll edit my post so that it actually works.
Is it possible to have ranged DPS actually out of melee range on this fight if both tanks are at the extreme max melee range? We had tranquil down in the Warlock group for the entire fight and I'm still getting complaints about how horribly threat capped they were.
If you have your 2nd tank Taunt after the first Stomp instead of the 3rd Slash (your first tank will have 2 Slashes) you will eliminate healing a Stomp there and then wait for the 1st tank to Taunt back after 2nd Stomp instead of immediately after the 5th Slash, you've eliminated 2 Stomps at the start of the fight. WWS's have all shown that the 2nd Stomp comes after the 5th Slash. From there you just continue with a 3 Slash rotation, but you've set yourself with a better chance of getting further into the fight elminiating another Stomp about 65% into the fight and now only have to heal through 9/12 Stomps.
If you have your 2nd tank Taunt after the first Stomp instead of the 3rd Slash (your first tank will have 2 Slashes) you will eliminate healing a Stomp there and then wait for the 1st tank to Taunt back after 2nd Stomp instead of immediately after the 5th Slash, you've eliminated 2 Stomps at the start of the fight. WWS's have all shown that the 2nd Stomp comes after the 5th Slash. From there you just continue with a 3 Slash rotation, but you've set yourself with a better chance of getting further into the fight elminiating another Stomp about 65% into the fight and now only have to heal through 9/12 Stomps.
We were doing exactly this when we started with Brutallus but found it was actually causing tank deaths rather than preventing them. You're much better off healing through a stomp when you're healers are already in full swing rather than having them switching tanks right around stomp. If the healers switch too soon the stomped tank dies, if they switch late because the current tank is taking a ton of damage, the new tank dies. It's something that sounds really good in theory but in practice our tank survivability increased greatly when we decided to just heal through stomp whenever possible.
Is it possible to have ranged DPS actually out of melee range on this fight if both tanks are at the extreme max melee range? We had tranquil down in the Warlock group for the entire fight and I'm still getting complaints about how horribly threat capped they were.
Umm, why would ranged DPS be in melee range at all? You can't out range Meteor Slash anymore.
Umm, why would ranged DPS be in melee range at all? You can't out range Meteor Slash anymore.
I don't know about their strat, and I don't know how you out range something by getting closer to its source, but the strat my guild uses calls for the soak groups to stand within CH jump range (but outside of burn-spread) range around the tank, enabling shaman to target the tank for the initial CH, healing the group. However, Brut has a sizable enough hitbox, so just put your healers who are soaks in front and the ranged in the back of the soak group. Works like a charm until some moron stands too close and spreads burn.
There also really shouldn't be that many threat problems, since ranged tends to stay in the 100%-130% range (over without pulling), and with the frequency of taunts, the tanks can pretty easily stay on top after the first 30s or 1 min. Unless you're taking a lot of threat-capped classes like Spriests (1500 dps lol) and boomkin, I don't know where you'd have an issue.
Last edited by kerrigor : 04/18/08 at 3:59 AM.
Reason: clarity
On our Brut kill tonight I was in melee range and ended up getting melee'd (and obviously killed) late in the fight after he would momentarily change targets to cast burn. Its not a mystery how that went down as its been happening since Vael. WWS has me at 1547 dps which means my TPS was way way higher (improved VE in a soaker group). We positioned SPs close to the tanks so that the ProM and CH will bounce onto them a lot as their life is constantly dipping from SW:D. I think we'll have to move them back out of melee range or just ... make more threat? I dunno, kinda obnoxious.
Umm, why would ranged DPS be in melee range at all? You can't out range Meteor Slash anymore.
It has to do with chain heals and how the groups were standing. Apparently our ranged DPS were still within hit box range standing in the back row even with Brutallus being pulled directly to the tank without the tank moving. That should have put the tank at max melee range and everyone behind him just out of it shouldn't it?
It has to do with chain heals and how the groups were standing. Apparently our ranged DPS were still within hit box range standing in the back row even with Brutallus being pulled directly to the tank without the tank moving. That should have put the tank at max melee range and everyone behind him just out of it shouldn't it?
Not really. If you're using that healing strat, the tank should back up until brut moves a bit. It's even easier on the 2nd tank, he just backs up until he can't hit the boss.
I see quite a few posts about shadow priests helping to heal slash damage with 2/2 Improved VE. I'm usually in the slash groups with 0/2 Improved VE but have serious aggro problems if I don't wait at least a couple of minutes before starting to use VE. I can't imagine how bad the issue would be with 2/2 Improved VE and trying to heal from the start.
Does this mean our tanks should be generating more threat? We use 2 prot warriors for tanking when I notice that the majority of guilds seem to use at least 1 druid tank - would this help with tank threat generation, and how much tps should a prot warrior be able to generate?
With 2/2 Imp VE healing a soaker group I'm riding a thin thin line for threat for most of the fight. If I get lucky on crits, I can cannon past the tanks pretty quickly.
Towards the end I'm usually not in a danger zone anymore, due to something at some point in the fight lowering my dps and putting me behind (Burn, resist, non-crit streak or simply a screwup).
If you're having issues with 0/2 VE I'm pretty sure your tanks could improve their threat game.
Make sure you're situated out of melee range so you can go to 130% without pulling aggro. Note that some positions on the fight are out of melee range ordinarily, but seem to put you just inside melee range when he turns to Burn someone.
I see quite a few posts about shadow priests helping to heal slash damage with 2/2 Improved VE. I'm usually in the slash groups with 0/2 Improved VE but have serious aggro problems if I don't wait at least a couple of minutes before starting to use VE. I can't imagine how bad the issue would be with 2/2 Improved VE and trying to heal from the start.
Does this mean our tanks should be generating more threat? We use 2 prot warriors for tanking when I notice that the majority of guilds seem to use at least 1 druid tank - would this help with tank threat generation, and how much tps should a prot warrior be able to generate?
I've seen my threat range anywhere from 900 to 1600 TPS on Brutallus. Depends how often he feels like parrying or how crappy my aim is.
Assuming every ability hits you generate approx. 1300 TPS before crits. This is assuming every melee is a heroic and an optimal skill rotation is used (and thus another warrior keeping up T.clap and demo up for you).
We use two warriors and the only threat issues we run into come when a caster crits a lot before 80% and has to use their threat dump early in the fight. The only people who should ever pull aggro are Mages who get rolling ignites under 20%.
If you have your 2nd tank Taunt after the first Stomp instead of the 3rd Slash (your first tank will have 2 Slashes) you will eliminate healing a Stomp there and then wait for the 1st tank to Taunt back after 2nd Stomp instead of immediately after the 5th Slash, you've eliminated 2 Stomps at the start of the fight. WWS's have all shown that the 2nd Stomp comes after the 5th Slash. From there you just continue with a 3 Slash rotation, but you've set yourself with a better chance of getting further into the fight elminiating another Stomp about 65% into the fight and now only have to heal through 9/12 Stomps.
Definitely have done this on every kill, just seemed logical. I've also noticed there are some points where you can time it (later in the fight) so the other tank eats stomp 4-5 seconds before 4th slash cutting actual stomps down to like 6-7/12
Stomp handling largely depends on tank choices. We use double feral , and it honestly trivialized the stomp healing. We try to force inspiration on them, they use ironshields/scrolls of armor (could use pally aura but we consider it unnecessary). In the end they easily sit at 24k armor AFTER stomp. This really makes stomp not that noticeable. Same way we discarded the "taunting stomps" idea. Honestly with how easily manageable stomp is for ferals, its much likely to lose a tank on a transition rather then stomp (Ferals take more damage in our experience outside of stomp - partly because sitting at 50k armor doesnt give you any extra benefits). Stomp on 1 tank is a huge burst + having to immedaitely switch to other tank... It was completely unnecessary and counterproductive to taunt stomps. In fact last 2 weeks we had some wipes due to tank deaths, and they were only caused by 2 factors - either a healer died because of burn/meteor slash handling (7 healers is perfectly fine, but doesnt allow for such fuckups), or during tank switch. I dont recall a single "stomp death".
If you're using a double feral tank setup I don't see how they could ever die during tank switches, every tank switch you get a 20% damage reduction buff in the form of barkskin, that cuts down the MH to sub 5k, so unless your healers were really really slow, your bears shouldn't be dying
I see quite a few posts about shadow priests helping to heal slash damage with 2/2 Improved VE. I'm usually in the slash groups with 0/2 Improved VE but have serious aggro problems if I don't wait at least a couple of minutes before starting to use VE. I can't imagine how bad the issue would be with 2/2 Improved VE and trying to heal from the start.
Does this mean our tanks should be generating more threat? We use 2 prot warriors for tanking when I notice that the majority of guilds seem to use at least 1 druid tank - would this help with tank threat generation, and how much tps should a prot warrior be able to generate?
I am pretty sure a Feral can generate more threat quicker than a Prot. That will help on the initial aggro levels. I use 2/2 VE and have been effective healing 7-8% of the raid. It is a noticeable difference to raid healing and, of course, a great help using SW.
That's every one of our Brutallus kills. Note that Shamans (along with Resto Druids) dominate effective healing while using Chain Heal bounced off the tanks for at least 2/3 of their output. Nice to have this discussion.
I thought the drama guy was claiming CoH priests did way more effective healing than shaman's. The WWS's you provided shows no such evidence of this, only that you guys don't even use a CoH priest.
I thought the drama guy was claiming CoH priests did way more effective healing than shaman's. The WWS's you provided show no such evidence of this, only that you guys don't even use a CoH priest.
Originally Posted by Derketo
I give up, you're having 2 of your healers using their worst tank healing spell on tanks, and wondering why your tanks die.
It is a silly argument though. Whatever works for your guild and your roster layout is the way to go. Trying to impose how your guild kills a boss on other guilds will only lead to .. well the last 20-30 posts.
For example, Post #493 above's dissection of why they used 2 tanks is obviously irrelevant since they got the idea from watching videos.*
Honestly though, we went from 3 tanks on PTR to 2 tanks on live and even with a Warrior/Feral combo we ended up gibbing randomly a lot less. Part of me just wants to blame Stomp+Transition=gib on Oceanic latency, but that's a cop-out. :P In either case, since it works, it works. Period.
Well, the incarnations of Brutallus we fought on PTR were bugged in that the parry-counter flag was not functioning. It was bugged in general and hotfixed before 2.4 went live, but by that point Brutallus had already been "disabled" on the PTR. So yes, tank gibs on PTR were a reality regardless of your strat; sometimes your tanks got parried and blown up in a non-healable fashion. On live servers the raw damage of Stomp was reduced (by about 2k IIRC) and the parry-counter flag has been functioning, so the tank damage is brutal (no pun intended!) but eminently healable.
04/16/08, 3:50 PM
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