Skysec

I don't believe meteor slash will EVER be a factor in a tank gib. Meteor slash is a cast (you can see the cast bar) and in all the times we've done brutallus, its always seemed like he stopped attacking for the 1.2s or so of the cast.

19:29'02.335 Brutallus's Swing dodged by Skysec
19:29'02.335 Brutallus's Swing hits Skysec for 4052 Physical damage
19:29'04.642 Brutallus's Meteor Slash hits Skysec for 2000 Fire damage

That's from the first meteor slash of the fight, and looking at the other meteor slashes later in the fight, its always around 1.2s after the last attack

19:29'14.586 Brutallus's Swing dodged by Skysec
19:29'15.802 Brutallus's Meteor Slash hits Skysec for 4375 Fire damage

 

Antiarc

I wrote a little addon this evening for rogues in Sunwell, specifically for Brutallus (though it'll work anywhere in there).

More or less, it automates weapon swapping, so you can put the weapon oil on an offhand, and the mod will automatically switch it in to get a proc, then swap back out to your normal offhand. The high proc rate on the oil means that you can very feasably run a DP stack alongside +300 AP every 45 seconds.

While we don't have Brut down yet, myself and my rogues ran the mod tonight, and we all noted a marked DPS increase as a result.

Find it at http://files.wowace.com/ThreeArmedBa...rmedBandit.zip

Install, configure with your weapons via the Blizzard addon menu, equip your backup offhand with the oil, and off you go. It'll automatically swap weapons to get you maximum benefit.

Warriors could use it, too, I guess, for the +AP and a sharpening stone on the offhand, but they're hit much harder by the GCD, whereas rogues tend to be simply energybound, so I suspect it'll be less useful to them.

 

• Intermission

A rogue in my guild was excited when he had 4 mongoose procs up at once using weapon swapping. Could this mod make that possible in a real raid environment? I dont know the details that make this possible or not (duration of mongoose, how many spare GCD's rogues have, inner cooldowns on mongoose?), but I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

Antiarc

It should be possible, sure, though you can't tell which hand procced Mongoose, so if you're running double goose, it gets pretty tricky to tell when to swap. If you run Executioner/Mongoose, though, you could definitely pull it off with this mod. Rogues have a 1.0 GCD, and energy ticks every 2 seconds, so you're usually at 2-4 seconds from your next action not counting Combat Potency procs, leaving lots of room for GCD burns.

As is, the mod would have to be adjusted to achieve Mongoose stacking, but it wouldn't be too hard to develop it in that direction.

 

Pitbuller

Remember that weapon swap reset swing timer.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Antiarc

Yes, but rogues tend to swing really fast so this isn't a huge concern.

 

Mags

I like the idea of the 3x3 grid - we've used a free-for-all positioning approach to the soak groups which led to occasional problems with people finding clear paths to the burn safe zone.

We used a 7 healer similar to the one Tyrian suggests, but we found we had more success with 2 holy priests and only 2 shaman. We did have 2 shadow priests in the raid, and they were expected to do a lot of the heavy lifting on meteor slash healing.

We did try 1 priest/3 shaman, but for whatever reason tank healing simply wasn't as stable. (Priests have better throughput on single target healing? Dunno.) Despite a general reluctance to give up another heroism and totems, a balanced 2/2/2/2/1 set-up (1 resto druid) seemed to be the most effective healing unit for us.

 

Ragnor

On our first night of going for our 2nd kill we were plagued with these so called tank gib's. While they seem random there's almost always something that can be improved. Check this screen shot below...

Edrial for whatever reason (probably good old oceanic latency) was slow on his next heal which should have been a max rank greater heal (healers should generally always max rank it during stomp on a druid tank). It could have kept the tank alive long enough for my next heal to land (a R11 Holy Light) and Calanitha would have survived.

He also had a spriest so he could switched out some regen gear/gems for haste.

Another thing, our druid tank has gemmed for stm currently, they could pick up a 2nd set of T6 and gem it for avoidance, one of our warriors re-gemmed for dodge and took 20% less damage over the course of a kill.

All these things matter, wws logs are a huge tool... make sure you take a look at the log breakdown for key actors.

I came back the next day with extra haste (a 1.8sec speed holy light) and I ended up with something stupid for overheal like 65% but no tank died to gib.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Inaiwae

I take 30% more damage than our avoidance stacked warrior over the course of the figh. Yet if a tank dies during stomp, it is him 90% of the time.

I am not saying that avoidance is bad, i am saying that dmg taken over the course of the fight is irrelevant.

 

◊ Penguin

Even though druid/warrior/paladin taunts are now affected by melee hit, they still have the same resist rate as a spell (17% vs level 73, 1% that can never be overcome). With 90 hit rating, you have 5.7% +hit, meaning that versus a normal level 73 boss you would see about 11% of your taunts miss.

Brutallus has been modified to something a lot more forgiving, probably down in the 4% or 5% area. As a guild, we've seen 3 taunt resists since we started learning him at the beginning of April, our tanks usually have 85 or better for hit rating.

There's not some hidden "but he tries really hard" variable built into the game. -Slake

I always love the "it doesn't fit my style of play" line. There are only two styles of play; Correct, and Incorrect. The only people that ever use this line are people with the incorrect style of play. -Sebudai

 

• DeeNogger

Someone told me that blizzard classifies any action that takes place without player input (a keystroke) is considered "botting". Isnt that basically what this mod does? Or is my information faulty?

I write things The word of DeeNogger

 

• Astrylian

No. Any action that requires input that happens without player input is considered botting. Tons of things don't require input, such as chat, most mail/AH functions, changing gear (that's what this mod does), etc.

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Ragnor

That's odd our warrior never comes close to dying in fact we healers can ease off while he's tanking, it's was always our druid dying to a "gib" during stomp.

Anyway it's not irrelevant if you can take 7 healers instead of 8 or give a spriests to warlocks because your healers didn't need to spend as much mana because your tank took less damage.

Healers having a haste set and tanks having a dodge set is pretty huge.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Antiarc

Astrylian has it right. Blizzard has certain functionally which may only be executed via hardware input. Automating that (which has to be done via a third-party program) is indeed botting. Equipment switches are not protected, however, and may be executed programatically without any input from the user - hence, this addon.

 

Jagiya

Ah, my apologies. The diagram I made would appear to be slightly off. They're not standing directly parallel to me, but rather a few steps back. (Regard the 2nd row of my diagram to be the 1st, and the 3rd to be the 2nd, and so on - like a sharp "U" shape, with the tank representing the base.)

They initially requested it as they couldn't Kill Command their pets from the back; and it just turned out to be convenient for us. They pretty much just pre-position themselves and everyone else distributes accordingly.

 

Inaiwae

You are saying thay your warrior is guaranteed not to take stomp + 2 hits, since thats about 18k dmg and your warrior is 1 hit away from death, which i think can be called "close to dying".

 

Anedris

In the context of Brutallus, one hit away from death is only close to dying if a heal isn't going to land before that one hit. If you have bullet-proof healing the tank's health can spike down to 10% on every spike and it won't matter because he'll never die. Conversely, given that any tank can be killed from full health in about 3 seconds, the tank is always "close to dying" and therefore saying that any tank does or does not come close to dying is completely meaningless.

Really though, this is a semantic argument. He means that the warrior isn't dying and the druid is. It's obvious what he means. Ergo, the wording isn't very important.

 

Inaiwae

I think that if your healers dont do mistakes, it does not matter at all what gemming / enchant you use. If your warrior is not dying and your druid is, then the only reason i can think of is that your warrior is lucky on dodges when your healers screw up, or the druid is doing something wrong (e.g. is undergeared?). Because druids take less spike damage during stomps than warriors, and healers simply spam big heals like the tank had 0 avoidance.

 

Ragnor

Looking at the physical damage taken in our last kill

Warrior took:
292 attacks
140 hits (average of 4560 damage per hit)
81 parried
44 dodged
28 missed

Druid took:
258 attacks
158 hits (average of 4302 damage per hit)
96 dodged
5 missed

Is that missed low for the druid, do you have a wws log I can compare to?

If anything stomp and the Sunwell Radiance buff on bosses in Sunwell hurts druids (and paladin tanks too who typically have low parry) more than it hurts warriors because warriors still have high parry.

I'm not saying druid tanks aren't awesome for Brutallus because their higher tps and raid utility more than makes up for it, but in my experience they take a lot more damage than an equally geared warrior.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Warbo

That's because a lot of druids out there either stack stamina, or they don't have a heavy avoidance oriented set; I have at least two pieces of tier 6 ( not the SW one, since they have good socket bonuses), allowing me to gem them for +15 stam and +10 agility.

Druidist - WWS -note that I start tanking brutallus, and that brutallus died while I was tanking him ( a 6 minute kill would result in equal active tank time for both tanks), which means that I tanked brutallus for roughly a good one minute longer than our prot warrior.

58.6% avoidance on brutallus, and on top of me tanking brutallus for much longer, I took less damage than the warriror tank. If you take a look at almost all brutallus wws parses out there, most druids still basically stack stamina, which nets them only at around ~40% avoidance ( I've seen parses with druid tanks as low as 33% avoidance ). This, coupled with the fact that warriors have "naturally" higher avoidance than druids when both are "stacking" stam, is where the higher brutallus output to druids is coming from.

 

Inaiwae

Our two kills: Inaiwae - WWS , Inaiwae - WWS

Its avoidance vs stamina tanking, me and our warrior. I take much more damage overall but i am generally more stable on stomps. Basically i can get about 6% dodge for 2k hp if i change gems, but i dont think its worth it. 24k hp is close to the margin where i can survive 2 rounds of attacks without heals. And raising avoidance from 35 to 40 is not that big benefit. In my opinion, warrior is not able to get enough stamina to survive another round of attacks, so for them avoidance is better way to go. For druids, i am not sure, but my way definitely works good so i am not wasting spinels for testing the opposite. I will, however, gem new sunwell gear for avoidance.

I think that for druid the low miss rate is ok, because we often use resilience to get crit immunity. So we dont get much -miss from defense. But to tell why he dies, particular death replay needs to be checked.

Btw our warrior got 61% avoidance on our last kill, thats in my opinion about 10% above where he should be, a lot of luck i guess?

 

Kegsta

An affliction lock seems to make far more difference than any gear choice a warrior can make for us, the imp + shadow embrace is very noticable, since our kill we have 2 and 1 shotted him, this week we tried it without an affliction lock and wiped 4 times to tank deaths, as soon as a lock went and respecced we got the kill.

 

Skyhoof