pinkhyori

All the paladins in the raid were holy though, what made it seemed like one of them was prot?

Is a 4% wipe 'pushable' with consumables and all. Or do I really need to bring in another dps. Right now we're running 4 tank healers, 2 shamans for slash healing, and 2 burn healers (paladin + druid or priest + druid). Which healer do I replace? and with what type of dps.

 

TimWischmeier

I would like to add some notes to the MT heal / stomp / taunt issues from our experience:

- We use warrior + feral as MTs

- We talked to our healers and asked them how they would like to have the tank switch. We ended up with the tanks announcing "taunt" on vent and taunting after. The delay should be 2 seconds after it was heard on vent, so approx 3 seconds factoring in reaction time. After some time you quite get a feeling to just announce your taunts right.

- When possible, we taunt each other right after stomp occurs. If all healers are doing their job right (ie know when to switch etc) and when we don't mess up with announce we don't get tank deaths from taunting stompfs off. Rarely our warrior dies from not being full health and getting stomp/mh/oh at the same time.

- If we are to tank through a stomp, we announce this about 5 seconds before to give healers the possibility to rank up or pop +heal trinkets. Tanks really should use CDs for this, even shield wall (ironshield on CD should be no question). As a druid, I alternate nightmare seed and morores/badge combo. Hints on using CDs:

- Nightmare seed / Last stand / battlemaster like - wait for stomp to hit and reactively pop them. It's the healers' job to get your health up to 100% before stomp, this should be not that difficult. So you will help healing up initial damage and the additional health buffer will help healers healing through stomp.

- last stand / dodge-trinkets - they should be used 1 or 2 swings before stomp, dodge-trinkets even 3 swings before. This will ensure that you go in stomp with full health and make further healing more easy.


- Generally stomp is quite critical on a warrior if not handled correctly (trinkets both on warrior and healers, having full health before). Druids having ironshield on CD and alternativ trinkets / nightmare seed are generally a lot more stable in our experience.

- Never ever let any MT healer cast anything like flash heal. Never ever. We usually have two paladins on MT (I think together with a priest an a chain-heal-bouncing shaman, but not sure about this). The first 3 minutes pala A cast a high (highest?) rank of heal, pala B cast a lower rank (rank 7 I think). After 3 minutes they switch. This is enough HPS and keeps them from running oom (both are eating mana potions on CD and are in a shadow priest group)



I hope you can take some help out of these things.

 

righthorn

Your warrior tank had blessing of sanc - so either one of your holy was some funky hybrid, or did you guys have 2 pally alts switching in just to buff with blessings?

You don't need 2 dedicated slash healers. Like I already said, if you have 3 resto shamans you don't need slash healing at all. Just spam CH thru the tank. If you are using alt pallies to give your raid more buffs, I would drop a pally. If you don't want to bother with that (and tbh you don't have to) I would drop whichever priest/shaman is the slowest at reacting. As for the replacement DPS, I'd go with another spriest or a mage if you can. IIRC you guys only ran with one spriest, so the 2nd'll help, and the mage can block which is a free burn.

 

MatsT

Downranking Holy Light is usually a terrible idea as it is always more effective both in terms of HPS and HPM to mix up max rank FoL and HL. Especially in a fight such as Brutallus where you can make sure to cast only HL at critical moments and use FoL when there is no swap or stomp incoming. You should obviously aim to use as much max rank HL as possible, but if the mana will not last, using max rank FoL is much more effective than using downranked holy lights.

 

Curtis

Hmm seems a bit high, not impossible depending on your current consumables use but i would rather work on the technical/positionning part of the fight than wasting consumables.

8 healers is a bit high, specially if you give shadow priest to holy paladins ~~

By the way that there'are basically two ways of healing meteor slash :
->chain heal (positionning is important)
->improved vampiric embrace (the group can handle itself)

Ie you can drop a chaman (or give him another assignment and drop a paladin to save totem/bloodlust, etc...) for a shadowpriest without loss on meteor slash healing and gain some dps.

 

Curtis

Hmm well not that clear.

What i want to say is if you lack some dps, dropping a healer for another sp seems a viable option (beware of debuff issues) if you can afford to.

 

Mideci

So there's a blue post today that basically says the raid buff changes have the effect of lowering melee dps and that cat dps, in particular, is currently not so good. There is also a lot of "between the lines" stuff that implies we ought not really worry about our dps much until we hit lvl 80.

But some of us -- including our guild leader -- were hoping that maybe just maybe 3.0 would be our one last push on Brutallus or alternatively if we got Brutallus before 3.0 it wouldn't be crippling to have all the changes go into place and that we'd get through it easily those last few weeks and perhaps also get Felmyst and Twins as TBC fades into Lich King.

I'm curious if anyone has sat around sharpening pencils at all and given this any thoughts. We rely fairly heavily on our top physical dpsers to make things happen and while we certainly have the gear, we've not seriously spent time on Brutallus. There is some faint hope of making a final push to see whether we can beat the fight in the next two months. The thread is a bit slow these days, so I'm chancing that there are some useful thoughts out there.

 

Ragnor

Assuming 2200 +heal, 30% HL crit (24% FoL), 100 haste, BoL on the tank, Libram of absolute truth

FoL (Max) does 1317-1361 hps and uses 98 mana/sec
HL (R7) does 1818-1892 hps ans uses 184 mana/sec
HL (R9) does 2472-2594 hps and uses 268 mana/sec
HL (Max) does 2962-3132 hps and uses 346 mana/sec

FoL is of course more efficient but the hps is terrible, it's half of the hps of HL R9

Down ranking holy light is perfectly viable for the fight, not using HL 9 or 7 at all when appropriate is foolish.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

◊ Kyth

There's really very little point in worrying about DPS until they've actually done their DPS pass on the classes. They've posted multiple times that they aren't worried about dps balancing yet and there will be a balancing patch on beta.

Until that's done, there's absolutely no guesses anyone can make at this.

I'm sure, however, if the subtext of your post is "will they make sure melee dps is still good" then the answer is "of course."

Officer of <Fusion>
http://www.stratfu.com/ - StratFu: Strategies, Guides, Movies, and Tips for Wrath Raiding

 

Mideci

Actually, the subtext of my post is, "will they make sure lvl 70 raid dps is still good" and I think, increasingly, the answer is "no, that's just not a concern.

There is a tremendous amount of blue text coming with regard to beta that says "don't worry, once you are level 80 in level 80 gear, then we'll look and see". Level 70 raids in level 70 gear are not going to be tuned and tested. Unless they plan to also just flat-out nerf Sunwell content with the 3.0 patch, I suspect guilds like mine are going to be out in the cold. They said melee dps -- at 70 -- is going to be worse with the raid buff changes. We don't have the ability to give up 400 dps across our two rogues and just hope that someone else makes it up. And if it's 600 dps, well....

I was curious if anyone had any real information, but I now realize that no one realistically could. I suppose I should just figure that someone in the raid group is wise enough to just knock 10% off Brutallus' hp and the hp of every other time-sensitive Sunwell mob just to be safe. I mean 3.0 is basically 4 weeks worth of pre-expansion raiding. It'll either leave a terrible taste if a lot of people can't kill stuff, or they'll remove shear from Illidan (since you can't shield block it anymore post 3.0) and nerf a bunch of other stuff to be on the "safe side".

Forgive the speculative digression.

 

MatsT

Sorry for being badly informed, but what dps losses are we talking about. From what i have seen almost all classes and speccs are getting massive buffs in all departments, and the raidwide buffs should help a lot too. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to where the dps loss would come from.

As for illidan, they will probably fix it, and worst case you can use a protection paladin.

 

kalbear

Some of the big ones:

Loss of drum rotations.
Loss of bloodlust/heroism rotations.
Loss of windfury totem's special ability (this helps rogues, but hurts arms/ret)
Loss of moonkin's hit for melee
Minor losses to various buffs (thinking of the universal mana returns, for example)
For enhancement shamans, massive nerfing of their current gear (they all wear leather which will not be redone for them, but the itemization on it will suck)

I don't know whether the specific class buffs/group buffs will improve or detract from these, but the drums/lust alone are going to be a significant hit to raids.

 

Crawk

And you're probably getting as much, if not more, than you're losing.

- One Shaman = 25 people bloodlusted (well, all 16 of your Brut DPSers). Rotations can be a nice optimization but you don't really need them. Virtually unchanged if you had 4 pretty well optimized groups and 4 shamans before. Heck since Brut is 6min if there is enough TPS flying around you could get two in there, which is 32 bloodlusted people.
- Windfury is now +20% permanent haste to Melee/Ranged
- Lots of questionable dps "complexity" mechanics being thrown out (Slam/Hunter swing/shot timers issues)
- Buffs/Mana returns going raidwide
- Tank threat being increased dramatically

How will it play out in reality? We don't know, some of the stuff isn't even done. But you can't just pick out the things you're losing and proclaim the sky is falling while ignoring all the stuff you ARE getting.

 

flinchme

im new to warrior fury and working on brutallus.

On a normal BT run i can do about 1596 on teron with this group makeup rogue/rogue/rogue/resto sham/fury warrior. yes we do not have an enh shaman.

On brutallus i am barely hitting 1200 with the same group makeup. What is it about brutallus that is kicking my dps?

 

Zedd

Higher base armor and the fight is longer so your heroism/drum/Cooldowns scale less compared to fight lenght

 

Zorac

without any enh shamans you will run into a world of trouble later in sunwell.

 

Dominus

Actually, he didn't even hit on the biggest problems. Might no longer stacks with Battle Shout, Curse of Recklessness no longer stacks with Faerie Fire, Expose Weakness now only affects the Hunter that is spec'd into it.

Might vs. BS: BS is the obvious choice here, since it currently outdoes Might when both are fully talented. Might is a base 226 attack power, I can't remember the exact number talented, but consider this akin to removing your demonslaying elixirs from your melee group and not replacing them. Hunters will still take Might because BS doesn't affect ranged attack power. No net loss on hunters.

Reck vs Faerie Fire: Double edged, at least for my raid. Improved Faerie Fire gave 600 armor penetration and 3% hit. The 3% hit is gone, so now at 70 it simply gives 600 armor penetration, in which case Recklessness beats it with 800 armor penetration. Melee, hunters, tanks all lose 3% to hit and 600 armor penetration. 3% hit hurts mostly rogues and BM hunters who can actually gear around the buff (our rogues and BM hunters are) and 600 armor penetration is a big loss considering the ability to stack ArP as a stat. Our BM hunters currently run with heavy armor pen, and our rogues are generally in the 600-800 range, and with the way ArP works right now, it gets better as you get closer to zero armor, so taking 600 off the final tally is a bigger hit than if ArP were less prevalent. Nevermind our DPS warriors who are running at 1100+ armor pen.

Expose Weakness: Remove roughly 3 Relentless Assault flasks worth of AP from the following - all hunter pets (except one), tanks, melee group (standard comp being enhance shaman, rogue, rogue, arms warrior, ret paladin).

Those are the major hits to melee DPS that patch 3.0 will usher in.

 

Mideci

Yeah, Dominus, thanks for quanitifying that. That's a pretty gigantic loss. It's true we're getting the new Windfury, but we're losing the old one. And we're going from perma-drums to 25% drum uptime. My sense is hundreds of dps loss on melee since we run with all those buffs (imp FF, surv hunter, CoReck). Basically we still need the thunderclap and the owl (hurting our dps warrior since we don't use a warrior tank) but don't seem to get much of anything in return that we didn't already have. I mean we can not run with 2 shadow priests, but I don't see how much that helps since the VE benefit was a significant part of the reason to do that anyway and we're going to need more mana return than ever, I believe.

 

Bogeywoman

Blizz has a long way to go with fixing all these classes and adjusting the dps before you should start worrying about it. If you're at 4% now, then you have it in the bag pre-patch, just get a few T6 4-piece set bonuses and a few trash wands and you're there.

 

Fireye

The raid group that I'm a part of has been working on Brutallus for a little while now. We have yet to start serious potted attempts (for the dps, healers/tanks are potted), mostly because we want to reliably be able to tank the fight until enrage first. But, I'm looking at the WWS from last night, and wondering if Bloodlust/Drums/Pots can make up a 9000 dps (or so) shortfall on our longest attempts.

WWS Loading... - Run from last night. 8 healer setup, swapped people in at about try 13, replacing a mage with another spriest.

 

Pheroz

Your going to have to cut down to 7 healers. Based on that WWS report, I can't see your dps closing the gap without adding another DPSer.

I'm sure your worried about being able to kep the tanks up with cutting a healer. Don't be. Just get it through their heads that if they don't have the ironsheild potion buff up, it's almost certainly a garunteed wipe.

 

Mihir

Some druid-specific comments: Your feral tank is only using mangle(cat) when he's not tanking, this should be shred as well. Have him adjust his position to be at 91% degrees from the warrior if he cant use shred atm. Your balance druid was only casting/on gcd for 4min 12seconds (assuming no spell haste) according to the first WWS you linked, in a fight of 6 minutes this is not good obviously. And i notice burn victims not always getting lifebloomed, this should be mandatory.

 

bracul

Small amount of tries this evening: Is there any more advice that our guild could get - apart the obvious 7-8healer issue?

Right now our second Spriest isn't availabe, so I'm not quite sure whether we could simply switch one healer with a 2nd Spriest. Should we put in another Warlock for a healer instead?

We have had some taunting issues, where either me (feral tank) or the warrior tank did some stupid mistakes. I'm not quite sure if there had been a kill in one of that attempts.

Wow Web Stats
(I apologize for the german version, but since wowhead is so kind to translate, I hope it doesn't matter that much

P.S: I know I should have used some Ironshield Potions during the tries :/ I'm also aware of my strange gem-choice :/

 

Celani

Our healing lead is saying that our two tanks are taking far more damage than any tank that has ever killed Brutallus ever did. After reviewing the parses, I have to agree. Both tanks have full MH/BT gear and Kalecgos bracers. Why are they taking so darned much more damage than everyone else?

Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

DPS is not even trying at this point as we've only seen enrage on one attempt of 60, so don't be too hard on them (and some are just stand-ins due to losses from the attendance boss).

 

Maelstrom

As far as I can see, your healing lead is trying to shift blame away from his department. A large number of those attempts seem to feature the same pattern: some random DPS or healer dies to meteor slash, more people die on the next slash because there's less people to soak, healers panic, a tank dies.

Other times, the tank is just getting nowhere near the heals they need. An example:

Wow Web Stats

19:41'41.925 Brutallus Stomp hits Majaya for 4757 Physical.
19:41'42.286 Majaya gains Shield Block.
19:41'42.423 Brutallus melee swing hits Majaya for 8245 Physical. (456 Blocked)
19:41'42.424 Brutallus melee swing hits Majaya for 4372 Physical. (456 Blocked)
19:41'42.634 Majaya is afflicted by Stomp.
19:41'43.048 Majaya gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization.
19:41'43.049 Majaya Fire Shield reflects 12 Fire damage to Brutallus.
19:41'43.049 Majaya gains 1 Rage from Shield Specialization.
19:41'43.050 Majaya Fire Shield reflects 12 Fire damage to Brutallus.
19:41'43.435 Majaya died.

That's ~17.2K damage, which isn't too bad for a stomp opener on plate really (As long as the next MH hit gets avoided to prevent an unhealable amount of damage occuring - something Brutallus is known for). Essentially, your healers are slacking and not topping off the tank. This could be a communication issue (Tanks calling "Stomp in 3" helps our healers a lot), but whatever it is, keeping those heals coming is crucial when stomp is about to hit - your tank will only die to the burst at the start of stomp, not at the end of it.

Oh and I just spotted:

Asleep Flash of Light heals Majaya for 1932.

Just before the stomp, tell your paladin(s) this isn't Karazhan.