Handled

I hve parsed WWS reports and talked to a lot of friends in different guilds that are all in Sunwell for progression and can't seem to find any guilds that deal with the extreme Debuff push off that we seem to be stuck under.

I parse WWS reports and see a Ret Paladin keeping JoW/JoL/JoTC all up the entire fight 1 application. I never make it more then 3 CS cycles without the debuffs being pushed off. I use to think I was just bad with DPS etc. I have about the best gear I can get expertise capped and hit capped so I know it's not only me there has to be more to it.

I started doing more reading to see what I could find out and it seems that most of the issues that we are facing is related to 3 Locks. 3 Mages and 3 SPriests every Raid more then anything else. I have commented on it but no one believes that our melee DPS group is effected by the debuff issue they think it's only my DPS has an issue from it and not big enough issue to make any changes. I feel our Melee DPS is suffering from it because our melee DPS is way lower then it should be.

Our Regular makeup is something like this.

Warrior Tank
Druid Feral
Shaman Resto
Hunter
Lock

2 Mage
Lock
SPriest
Shaman Ele

Mage
2 Lock
Spriest
Shaman resto

2 Paladin
Priest
Druid
Spriest

2 Rogue
Warrior
Shaman
Paladin

That is a pretty common make up, So does our melee DPS just outright suck or do the debuffs play a part in the overall loss of melee DPS? Better yet is this only affecting my DPS and our other melee who burns haste pots and have DST just have bad DPS?

 

Krymeariver

Maybe your melee dps just sucks?

 

woo-haa

Do you have any WWS reports? It would help a lot more than a simple group composition.

 

james

Also have debuff slot issues - we run shadowpriest heavy too. Our melee also complains about not getting the full benefit from rupture/deadly poison. I think it's pretty clear where those debuff slots are being eaten - Misery, Shadow Weaving, then VE, VT, SWP and Mind Flay for every shadowpriest after that.

I think this topic might be hijackable for "are 40 debuff slots STILL enough" - or at least a worthy branch. (Yes, I raided with 8 debuff slots.)

The whole "should we make our tanks use Nightfall at Brut" issue was a non-issue for my guild - if it knocks off another debuff, it costs us DPS.

There's a lot of encounters that I'd love to help out with the DPS on but can't because I'd knock off a better debuff. On a standard ZA, with some casual multidotting on trash/bosses, I'm able to pull off 100-200k damage just from the timed part - and it just costs me a GCD every 18s. Having a druid able to keep up Insect Swarm - same issue.

 

Zurgat

Is your hunter survival specced?
Is the paladin in the melee group retribution?
Is the warrior in the melee group arms or fury?

There's a lot more factors that come into play than i could list quickly.
Swapping one of the Shadow priests with a Moonkin will benefit the melee a lot as well. Paladins and as of recently shamans don't "really" need a shadow priest that much anymore. All our healers have spellsurge on their mainhand weapon and haven't got a lot of mana issues without a SP in their group.

Have you checked whether the warlocks have different points in shadow embrace?

Check this thread for a list of debuffs that classes can create : http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t15297-raid_debuffs/
And this post : http://elitistjerks.com/452610-post2.html
It's old, but should still be fairly accurate. The thread itself seems to be locked and in the archives.
I recall there being a new one made but I'm unable to find it currently.

The debuff priority system which was implemented before TBC works for lvl 60 spells only.
Strangely enough it doesn't affect level 70 spells.


Basically the recommendations were as follows:
* Rogues should avoid garrotes
* Shamans should avoid flame shock.
* Hunters should avoid using scorpids and not use viper sting
* Warlocks should avoid siphonlife or drain life
* Warriors should avoid rend
* Druids should avoid rake and pounce

Keep in mind that due to the thread's age new debuffs may have been added since it's creation.
Also, i recommend checking is any of your shamans or warriors are using the [Syphon of the Nathrezim], this weapon also takes up a debuff slot quite regularly and should be avoided if you are near the debuff cap. They could switch to the badge fists in theory : [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

Having 3 paladins in the raid "all" apply a judgement, and then allowing the retribution paladin to refresh all 3 of those debuffs will also eat your other debuff slots. If your raid can live with just 1-2 judgements rather than 3 (crusader, wisdom, light) you'd be able to save another slot, but without more detailed info about your raid setup it's hard to say how many debuffs you are actually using and which ones could be left out.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

Zaazel

The proc from Siphon is a self-buff, though, and doesn't affect debuffs at all.

 

Handled

Wow Web Stats

I can give you more but that is this weeks Kal / Brut.

I know that for me being Ret I'm losing debuffs from push off because I can't keep Judgments up.

I run with 11 hit + 2 from talents giving me 9.04% hit and I have Expertise capped with 6.5 showing 0% Miss rate. You will notice in the Parse I juggle JoTC and JoW because it's not worth possibly costing the tanks life to get a judgement back up.

I considered this which is why I'm trying to get some comments from people that we dont' raid with someone to give their best information based on what they see.

 

sarf

• Check if your buffs get pushed off - get an addon that counts the number of debuffs (Demon for instance)
• Check so that the melee buffs are up there (Faerie Fire, Curse of Recklessness and of course Sunder Armor x5 + Arms warrior debuff?)

That's what I'd do. 3 SPs and 3 locks can eat a LOT of debuff slots. The usual way to cut down on debuffs is to have locks respec out of Affliction and/or use less DoTs (I think lock debuff priority is usually Curse of X > Corruption > Immolate > Siphon Life with UA probably before Immolate but dunno if it is before Corruption). Having one Affliction-debuffer is usually a good thing (applies 5% melee damage debuff and with Malediction you can use 2.6% increase in CoS or CoE), but more than one Affliction-lock is usually not needed (if they get tailored/badge gear, Demo or Detro will most likely outscale Affliction).

Also, in order to optimize raid DPS the debuffs you use should reflect the current raid composition. Low/few melee DPS? CoR can be replaced by CoD/CoA. Usually, with 3 locks, you keep up CoS, CoE and CoR. If CoS/CoE falls off, have the warlocks use the pre-TBC spells (less -resist, same +% damage) as they are prioritized above other debuffs.

Much of this can be found elsewhere on this site (mostly the Class Mechanics forum).

Be like a child - greedy, self-centered and immune from prosecution.

 

Daedalix

Just looking at your Brut kill:

Your enh shaman used flameshock pretty significantly. It's generally accepted that Shamans should avoid using this because it ranks about last on the list of debuffs you'd want up and they have acceptable alternatives. Your elem shaman also used it (only once).

That's the only thing I can see that's abnormal about your debuff distribution. Your warlocks were using a minimal amount of dots and your healers weren't throwing out useless ones either. 3 Undead shadow priests combined with 3 fire mages is definitely the root of your problem, insofar as debuffs go.

15 for the shadow priests
lacerate
mangle
2 poisons
demo shout
imp shadow bolt x 3
3 curses
faerie fire
2 judgements
MS
sunder
scorch x 3
fireball x 3
deep wound
stormstrike
rupture x 2
Blood Frenzy

That's 42 right there and pretty much only includes the normal debuffs you'd use in a fight. When you consider weapon procs (if any), flame shock, and any extraneous debuffs that might have been applied, you'd have melee debuffs getting removed everytime your shaman flame shocked or stormstriked.

Not sure if consecrate still takes up a debuff slot even though it doesn't show up?

 

Illundai

The only reason you get debuffs knocked off is the high amount of SP and the affliction lock. We run with 1 Affliction lock and 2 SP and even then sometimes the debuffs get tossed off.

You could:

- Make your Shamans stop using Flame Shock, small hit to their DPS.
- Make your Rogues skip Rupture and Deadly Poison, hit to their DPS, you'll notice them losing out on about 50ish DPS I guess?
- Try to minimize the amount of DPS warriors you take, deep wounds do take up spots.
- Make your Affliction lock spec Destro
- Run with at least one 1 SP less.

 

Masq

Zulliz is BM, not expose weakness.
Looks like your rogues are not getting battleshout.
Fleshfeast is standing somewhere he shouldnt be. 33 parries, 14 dodges.

http://www.aftermathlb.com

 

Natural

Actually--it eats up Improved Shadowbolt debuffs from the mob. Get them out of your raid if at all possible.

 

Killme888

Been tested and proven false.

 

• Latito

They're getting it. It doesn't show up in the parse of that specific kill because the warrior is using it before the pull and keeping it refreshed.
Wow Web Stats (They all get UR)
Wow Web Stats (Same number of drums)
Wow Web Stats (The warrior knows where his Battle Shout button is)

This is a good way of detecting bad melee: Wow Web Stats
Anyone who isn't a tank that parries more than once in a blue moon (boss spins to cast burn on someone) is positioned wrong and needs to fix that. Work with your melee if needed. In my guild, our melee often stacks up to 4 deep. so we're all out of parry range. That is, we have a guy standing at the base of his tail, someone 3-4 yards behind him, another guy behind him and a tauren way in the back. His hitbox is huge, no one should ever parry more than ~5-10 times a fight as an upper limit.

 

Soladoras

I wouldn't be concerned about debuffs falling off for your Melee DPS at all really. For your Rogues, Rupture and Deadly Poison are such an insignificant portion of their DPS, you won't see drastic changes in performance as a result, whether they drop them all together, or have 100% DoT uptime. Sunder will stay up with your Prot Warrior's Devastate spam, and that is by far their most important debuff they need. Faerie Fire was up, and so was CoR. They most likely had BS the whole fight—your Warrior probably gave it to them prior to the pull and it never fell off.

 

world

One thing that I do notice on Brutallus is that Deep Wounds/Blood Frenzy falls off a lot. Not sure if this is just bad luck or whether the old "Deep Wounds is crap" mentality from Molten Core days still persists, and its classified as a useless debuff, and hence first to be knocked off.

 

Handled

Has there ever been a compiled list of debuff fall off priority? Is there a method behind it, Does anyone really know what the system is like some think it's the first buff applied falls off when the cap is hit. Really wish there was a way to find out what debuffs can be sacrificed for Deep Wounds and JoW would be different if I was asking for 10 debuff slots but I can't even make a complaint for 3.

 

◊ manly

As far as I am aware, it does eat up ISB charges. So I will have to call BS on this.

 

Kasi

There was testing done on the class mechanics forums. Here let me reference a couple of the posts.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I (by Illundai)

There was another post I recall reading that also said that it didn't, but I can't find it atm.

 

Kasi

Just tested Syphon with a warlock guildie with ISB on mobs above Shat. Got it to proc when 4 charges were up. It did not consume a charge. So Syphon is safe to use with ISB.

 

Whiteknight

Yeah, I tested Syphon and ISB personally - it doesn't eat charges. (I tested it on Durn out in Nagrand, if that makes any difference - needed a mob that wouldn't die instantly to a raid geared warlock).

 

Kasi

Well I just had our lock downrank his shadowbolt so the mob didn't explode. Helped I was in ele gear so my melee hits for crap as well. It does offer some insight into theories and how word of mouth is taken. For so long a lot of people here thought heroism/bloodlust dropped the gcd. Yet it didn't til 2.4. Syphon is much the same.

 

Zupal

I am having the same problems as Ret. One semi-viable option that came to mind was having the rogues use instant over deadly poison. (deadly was around ~3% of their total DPS. Instant would be roughly half that so a 1-1.5% dps drop.). Our enchance shaman uses flame shock in place of earth shock on Brut so our elemental shaman could consume the stormstrike charges.

I noticed in my log analyis that WWS categorizes Consecration as a debuff. I wasn't sure the game actually treats it as such but I stopped using it in lieu of more simplified CS/JoB/Exorcism cycle on Brutallus. Anyone know for certain if Consecration takes up a slot?

 

Kasi

Umm, your theory of getting SS procs for your Ele shaman is rather puzzling to me.

1) Flame shock is a debuff, thus having your shaman use it is wasting a debuff slot.
2) Having him not earth shock so the ele shaman can get the SS charges is great, except for one issue.
3) Rogues, deadly poison doesn't consume SS debuff. Instant poison however does.

Thus your ele shaman isn't getting any help out of this, you're adding a debuff with the enh shaman, and your rogues are getting (and wasting) all the benefit of the SS.

Put your rogues back to deadly, have your enh either just earth shock exclusively and delay timing them for a couple seconds if it comes up right after SS (or use frost shock in that circumstance if tank threat isn't an issue, I know it really wasn't in our kill) Basically a properly played ele shaman should consume SS within 2 seconds of it being up.

 

PSGarak

Deadalix: You're overcounting a few debuffs. All warlocks share a single Improved Shadowbolt, all mages share a single Improved Scorch. On the other hand, you also missed 3xIgnite.

Soladras: Rupture is not an insignificant amount of damage. In fact, rogue combo point cycles are generally built around maximizing Rupture without sacrificing S&D. EDIT: redacted, replacing rupture with evis is not a huge DPS loss.

It turns out, the debuff priority system is still in the game code somewhere, it's just that level 70 debuffs have not been given priorities. Level 60 warlock curses (rank 3 CoE, rank 2 CoS) will not get knocked off, although the level 70 variants may (ranks 4 and 3 respectively). Since the only difference between the two is some spell penetration, warlocks will often downrank those two when debuffs are a problem. This is probably still true for any rank of shadow weaving, improved scorch, stormstrike, and improved shadowbolt, although things like misery and mangle are post-TBC spells. If you have a boomkin you may consider downranking JotC, Insect Swarm and Faerie Fire to the highest pre-TBC variants as well. You will lose some AP/dmg/ArP, but the talented percent effects will persist.

Of course, with the system already in place, blizzard could totally get off their asses and add numbers to all the debuffs. This wouldn't solve the problem that we actually do need more debuff slots to begin with, but at least it would favor Expose Weakness over the Fireball DoT.

So I'm going to draw up a provisional list of abilities that do/do not have debuff priorities. It's currently based on the assumption: pre-TBC abilities have priority, post-TBC abilities do not. I would love for any and all of this to be tested... obtaining 40 debuffs and a target that won't die is somewhat difficult (8 affliction warlocks head off to blasted land?).
Note also that some abilities didn't have very high priority, even pre-TBC. For example, I have no idea where Ignite ranked.

Abilities That Don't Get Knocked Off
Improved Shadow Bolt
Shadow Weaving
Improved Scorch
Expose Weakness
(improved) Kidney Shot
Piercing Howl
Curse of Exhaustion
Stormstrike

Abilities That Do Get Knocked Off
Misery**
Blood Frenzy**
Mangle
Demoralizing Shout
Shadow Embrace**
Judgement of Justice
Deadly Throw

Abilities That Can Be Downranked Not To Knock Off (with rank)*
Curse of Shadows (2)
Curse of Elements (3)
(improved) Judgement of the Crusader
(improved) Faerie Fire
Insect Swarm
Hex of Weakness (you know, the (other) troll priest racial)

Your Guess Is As Good As Mine
Ignite
stacking Hunter's Mark
Deep Wounds
Wound Poison
Aimed Shot
(abilities whose damage, but not affect, increases with rank: like MS, hamstring, frost shock)

*only counting abilities with affects not reduced by downranking
**linked to other debuffs--not sure if they can be knocked off independently
As I've already said, a lot of this list is currently speculation. We know CoS/CoE can be downranked to stay, but most of the rest has not been tested. If people do test, I will try to update (or if I forgot an important one).

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png