Debuff Knock off - Page 2

• Latito · 04/17/08, 6:23 PM

As mentioned, having rogues switch from Deadly to Instant poison when you have an Enhancement and Elemental shaman in the raid is a bad idea for rDPS. If you are insistant on the rogues dropping debuffs, switching from Rupture to Evis is generally a loss of ~30-35 dps with no outside complications. Switching from Deadly to Instant is a 35-40 dps loss for the rogue and a more substantial loss to the ele sham. If you must have the rogue drop all debuff usage, switch them from rupture to evis, then deadly to Righteous Weapon Coating.

Zupal · 04/17/08, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Umm, your theory of getting SS procs for your Ele shaman is rather puzzling to me.

1) Flame shock is a debuff, thus having your shaman use it is wasting a debuff slot.
2) Having him not earth shock so the ele shaman can get the SS charges is great, except for one issue.
3) Rogues, deadly poison doesn't consume SS debuff. Instant poison however does.

Thus your ele shaman isn't getting any help out of this, you're adding a debuff with the enh shaman, and your rogues are getting (and wasting) all the benefit of the SS.

Put your rogues back to deadly, have your enh either just earth shock exclusively and delay timing them for a couple seconds if it comes up right after SS (or use frost shock in that circumstance if tank threat isn't an issue, I know it really wasn't in our kill) Basically a properly played ele shaman should consume SS within 2 seconds of it being up.

We haven't switching around as yet. Rogues are still using deadly poison probably because of the the reason you mentioned (which I wasn't aware of).

What is the DPS difference between deadly and righteous wpn coating?

edit/ Looks like roughly half the DPS of deadly.

Really the solution would be to fix the debuff priority (with judgement giving a med-high priority) rather than play debuff sheriff and have to harass other DPS.

glowacks · 04/18/08, 11:45 AM

edit: My post's point was addressed and thus its content no longer needed.

nfw · 04/18/08, 12:03 PM

One strange thing I have noticed is thunderclap and demoralizing shout keep dropping off Supremus during the kite phase. I have no idea why it would happen since during normal phase those debuffs stay up. And you would think during the kite phase he'd have less debuff on him.

Soladoras · 04/18/08, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Soladras: Rupture is not an insignificant amount of damage. In fact, rogue combo point cycles are generally built around maximizing Rupture without sacrificing S&D.

I think you're overestimating the impact of using another finisher, let alone the dps loss from having the debuff knocked off. You're only losing 30-40 personal dps, moving from Rupture to Evis, or from Rupture to Imp. Expose Armor, which is debuff slot neutral as it replaces Sunder Armor. When you're able to push 2100 dps even after dropping Rupture for something else, it really is just a drop in the bucket.

fip · 04/18/08, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by Daedalix

Just looking at your Brut kill:

Your enh shaman used flameshock pretty significantly. It's generally accepted that Shamans should avoid using this because it ranks about last on the list of debuffs you'd want up and they have acceptable alternatives. Your elem shaman also used it (only once).

That's the only thing I can see that's abnormal about your debuff distribution. Your warlocks were using a minimal amount of dots and your healers weren't throwing out useless ones either. 3 Undead shadow priests combined with 3 fire mages is definitely the root of your problem, insofar as debuffs go.

15 for the shadow priests
lacerate
mangle
2 poisons
demo shout
imp shadow bolt x 3
3 curses
faerie fire
2 judgements
MS
sunder
scorch x 3
fireball x 3
deep wound
stormstrike
rupture x 2
Blood Frenzy

That's 42 right there and pretty much only includes the normal debuffs you'd use in a fight. When you consider weapon procs (if any), flame shock, and any extraneous debuffs that might have been applied, you'd have melee debuffs getting removed everytime your shaman flame shocked or stormstriked.

Not sure if consecrate still takes up a debuff slot even though it doesn't show up?

I could be wrong here but I am fairly certain that Improved Shadowbolt and Scorch stack across users, meaning that 3 warlocks would not have 3 seperate Imp. Shadowbolt debuffs on the target. It just refreshes the same one. Same for scorch.

PSGarak · 04/18/08, 3:24 PM

Glowacks: Correct, I was refering to the healing-recieved debuff. I believe it hasn't worked on Alar in forever, I'm just including it for comparison. Editing post.

Soladoras: Point taken, rupture's contribution is much smaller when compared to possible replacements like eviscerate.

Zurgat · 04/21/08, 4:52 AM

There are two addons that appear relative to this thread. I don't see any debuff counter on curse but I'm quite sure one exists.
* Debuff Filter | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse
* Catch Missing (de)Buffs | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse

I'd love to run some more extensive tests on the debuff limit, as our own raid seems to be hitting the cap quite frequently as well.

sp00n · 04/21/08, 6:30 AM

Debuff Filter can show the current amount of debuffs on the target.

Handled · 04/21/08, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

There are two addons that appear relative to this thread. I don't see any debuff counter on curse but I'm quite sure one exists.
* Debuff Filter | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse
* Catch Missing (de)Buffs | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse

I'd love to run some more extensive tests on the debuff limit, as our own raid seems to be hitting the cap quite frequently as well.

I use catch and watch debuffs get knocked off all raid long, It's a rather hard point to prove that there is lost raid DPS when any of the damage capabilities of the melee group are lost to dots. More then anything I was trying to get a good look at exactly how much DPS might be lost for the melee group. This thread has given me an idea but unfortunately Blizzards debuff system is pretty broken.

Dorlog · 04/21/08, 9:39 PM

I'm using Demon as an important debuff toggle / debuff counter mod and quite happy with it. (And i'm always a fan of wowace addons... autoupdate is nice, as is menu's on fubar).

aribeth · 04/22/08, 1:07 AM

Dorlog, excuse me but Demon is really a too common name to search, could you provide a link to it?

Northerner · 04/22/08, 1:48 AM

It is called "Demon" in WoW Ace Updater or on the repository. Googling "wow ace files" will get you a searchable index (World of Warcraft Addons - WowAce.com) and it is found as Demon there as well.

Iluminati · 04/22/08, 4:16 AM

A very nice debuff counter mod is called Smarty, written by Luxx of Death and Taxes. It tells you how many debuffs are currently up, and can be used to track whether or not a debuff is currently active. You can find it here:

Addon: Smarty - Death & Taxes - Rerolling Horde

It's very nice. I use it to track Curse of Shadows with my priest and tanking debuffs (FF/tclap/demo/sunder/etc.) while on my druid.

Isla · 04/24/08, 11:08 PM

They obviously have something like this in the WoW code:

int debufflimit = 40;

Why can't they change it to:

int debufflimit = 128;

?

sarf · 04/25/08, 4:57 AM

Originally Posted by Isla

They obviously have something like this in the WoW code:

int debufflimit = 40;

Why can't they change it to:

int debufflimit = 128;

?

Because it's not int debufflimit = 40, it's more like:

FOR EVERY MOB THAT IS IN COMBAT, ANYWHERE:
int currentHealth;
Buff[40] myBuffs;
Debuff[40] myDebuffs;
Threat[128] myThreatList;
Entity currentTarget;
Spells[10] mySpells;

So, if they increase Debuff[40] to Debuff[128] then it's not an integer changing a value, it's three times the space being allocated for debuffs. And debuffs contain quite a bit of info - who cast it, when they cast it/or its remaining duration, with what factors they cast it (as in, current spelldamage/buffs affecting it at that time) and so on.

Now, what they could or perhaps should do is to make bosses extra-special rather than keep mobs and bosses working the same way.

◊ Cadfael · 04/25/08, 5:47 AM

Assuming there are more and newer debuffs coming with Wrath of the Lich King (hey at least one new class) they will really have to either increase the limit a bit or get back to an useful priority system that works. And/Or let every debuff stack even if it is from different people and with different effect value (ie. 3 SW:Ps on it are only using up one slot even with different damage values and duration)

sarf · 04/25/08, 5:54 AM

Originally Posted by Cadfael

Assuming there are more and newer debuffs coming with Wrath of the Lich King (hey at least one new class) they will really have to either increase the limit a bit or get back to an useful priority system that works. And/Or let every debuff stack even if it is from different people and with different effect value (ie. 3 SW:Ps on it are only using up one slot even with different damage values and duration)

Having different-but-same-spell debuffs take just up one slot is not going to happen without a drastic rewrite of their debuff system - the whole rolling ignite thing kinda explained how they currently treat buffs and debuffs (type/id, "owner", current stack, currently applied spelldamage, and either time applied or duration left).

I guess it'll be easier to bump the limit or give every class a new spell that consumes/utilizes a debuff on the target instead.
Debuff prioritization seems to be ignored for some reason, but it's not a solution - all it does is to further promote the "stack buffs on players and keep to X debuffs on mobs" as long as you don't run into 40 buffs (which should be hard to do, even in a group with 5 shamans as there just aren't that many stackable buffs around).

Or they could just discontinue 25 man raids and go down to 20 or 15 and proclaim the problem solved.

◊ Cadfael · 04/25/08, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by sarf

Debuff prioritization seems to be ignored for some reason, but it's not a solution - all it does is to further promote the "stack buffs on players and keep to X debuffs on mobs" as long as you don't run into 40 buffs (which should be hard to do, even in a group with 5 shamans as there just aren't that many stackable buffs around).

We have absolutely no problem reaching the limit at Brutallus with 2 shadow priests and 0 affliction locks and 3 shamans (2 of which are healing and not putting anything on him).

Or they could just discontinue 25 man raids and go down to 20 or 15 and proclaim the problem solved.

Don't give them ideas !!

Fafhrd · 04/25/08, 10:16 AM

This is from an old guild forum, I just updated the dps values from recent Brutallus WWS reports.

Premise: Maximise dps on Brutallus, keeping below 40 debuff slots.

Raid setup:
3 Warlocks (1 Affliction)
3 Mages
2 Shadowpriests
2 Rogues
2 Hunters
1 DPS warrior
1 Prot Warrior
1 Feral Druid (cat)
1 Feral Druid (bear)
1 Retri Paladin
1 Enhancement Shaman
7 healers

1. Unavoidable debuffs

Fireball Dot (Mage): 10 dps (x3)
Mangle (Druid)
Deep Wounds (Warrior): 105 dps

2. Mitigation debuffs

Thunderclap (Warrior): -20% boss attack speed
Shadow Embrace (Warlock): -5% boss physical dmg
Demo Shout (Warrior): -420 boss AP
Scorpid Sting (Hunter): -5% boss chance to hit
Screech (Hunter pet): -210 boss AP
Mortal Strike (Warrior): -50% healing
Aimed Shot (Hunter): -50% healing

3. Raid DPS-enhancing debuffs

Sunder Armor (Warrior): -2600 armor, at least 10-15% to melee dps, 2000-2500 dps
CoS (Warlock): 13% to shadow/arcane damage: 900-1050 dps
Imp Shadow Bolt (Warlock): 20% to shadow damage (10% effective): 900-1000 dps
Shadow Weaving (Priest): 10% to shadow dmg, 900-1000 dps
CoR (Warlock): -5% to melee dps: 900-1000 dps
Improved scorch (Mage): 15% to fire damage: 900-1000 dps
Misery (Priest): 5% to all spell damage: 700-900 dps
CoE (Warlock): 10% to fire/frost damage: 600-700 dps
Imp SoC (Paladin): 3% crit to all attacks: 30-40 dps/attacker: 500-600 dps
Faerie Fire (Druid)-610 armor, about 4% extra melee dmg: 5-600 dps
Blood Frenzy (Warrior): 4% physical damage: 5-600 dps
Imp Hunter's Mark (Hunter): 110 AP to all melee/hunters. Hard to calculate dps, but good debuff.
Expose Weakness (Hunter): 1000+ AP to the raid. Hard to calculate dps, but good debuff.

4. Personal DPS debuffs

Ignite (Mage): 400 dps (x3)
Mindflay (Priest): 300 dps (x2)
SW Pain (Priest): 280 dps (x2)
Corruption (Warlock): 260 dps
Unstable Affl (Warlock): 255 dps
Vampiric Touch (Priest): 250 dps - also gives mana (x2)
Immolate (Warlock): 240 dps
Rip (Druid): 230 dps (x2)
Lacerate (Druid): 200 dps
Curse of Doom (Warlock): 200 dps (not used)
Stormstrike (Shaman): 170 dps
-
Rupture (Rogue): 160 dps (x2)
Curse of Agony (Warlock): 160 dps (not used)
Drain Life (Warlock): 150 dps (situational)
Siphon Life (Warlock): 115 dps/130 hps
Serpent Sting (Hunter): 90 dps (x2)
Garotte (Rogue): 90 dps (x2)
Deadly Poison (Rogue): 85 dps (x2)
Flame Shock (Shaman): 80 dps
Starshards (Priest): 70 dps (x2)
Scorpid Poison (Hunter): 60 dps (x2)
Rend (Warrior): 40 dps
Devouring Plague (Priest): 30 dps/30 hps (x2)
Rake (Druid): 30 dps

5. Other debuffs

Judgement of Wisdom (Paladin): Returns mana
Vampiric Embrace (Priest): 100 hps (situational use) (x2)

Summary:
Excluding Screech and Aimed Shot from Mitigation debuffs, and using all raid-wide dps debuffs; 24 debuffs (with JoW)
Banned are all personal debuffs below Stormstrike, starting with Rupture.
There are several ways to reduce debuffs, maybe the best is to do without an Shadow Embrace, which saves 4 debuffs to let rogues use Rupture etc.

urotas · 04/25/08, 9:49 PM

You should calculate not the damage gained by the debuff used, but the damage gained by using that ability instead of another ability (that doesn't require a debuff slot). To calculate the damage gained by a flame shock for example, you should figure out the dps difference between using earth shock and flame shock. Similarly a warlock using corruption gains the difference between the damage caused by corruption and 3/5 of a shadow bolt (assuming instant cast corruption).

For example (damage for the abilities are just for example, not actually calculated with any specific spelldamage)

Corruption 4500 damage over 18 seconds
Shadowbolt 4000 damage average

Damage gained 4500 - 4000*3/5 = 2100
The corruption uses up a debuff slot for 18 seconds, so the amount of dps gained by using the ability is 117dps

Some of the abilities in your list actually contribute negative dps. For example a druid using rake instead of shred will be doing less damage, and using up a debuff slot in the list as well.

The value of a lot of abilities will be very different if you take this into account. Abilities with a low opportunity cost will be higher in the list, and abilities with almost equal no-debuff substitutes will be much lower.

Fafhrd · 04/26/08, 10:58 AM

You're right of course, but I didn't feel like doing the extra work.

For instance the dps loss of rogues using Instant Poison instead of Deadly is about 30 dps, which is why it's recommended they never use DP unless you're 100& sure the debuff limit won't be reached.
(Unless they are Mutilate, but why should they be?)

orcsgotbooty · 04/26/08, 11:18 AM

You can also add insect swarm for guilds that bring a boomkin, which is dps + 2% chance for boss to miss I believe? And for ret paladins, imp JotC which is 3% crit for all dpsers.

sp00n · 04/26/08, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Fafhrd

You're right of course, but I didn't feel like doing the extra work.

For instance the dps loss of rogues using Instant Poison instead of Deadly is about 30 dps, which is why it's recommended they never use DP unless you're 100& sure the debuff limit won't be reached.
(Unless they are Mutilate, but why should they be?)

Would be 38 DPS for me. Also, Instant Poison is eating Stormstrike charges, whilst Deadly doesn't. However I have no clue how much DPS that accounts for.

Zaroua · 04/26/08, 11:19 PM

More to the OP than anything else: with 3 Mages and 3 Shadow Priests, it may be worth it to make a 3 Mage 2 Spriest group and have the Mages respec for Arcane Blast spam. You'd gain 8 debuff slots: Scorch, 3 Fireball Dots and 3 Ignite Dots. That would also let 2 of your 4 Warlocks use CoD.

May or may not be viable for your raid members, but it's always an alternative.