ozweepay

Zoph,

Sorry, no... I wasn't referring to you specifically. Your in-depth troubleshooting of shadow priests, while spot-on and valuable, misses the point of my post. The response I was expecting was "Well, shadow priests SHOULD be on the bottom of the damage meters." If you look at WWS Scoreboard, they are the weakest dps class. So how do you know if yours is performing well or not?

My guild trials numerous players and tenures most, but not all. I was asking, from the officers and guild leaders here, how you can competently evaluate the 20-or-so different raiding specs objectively.

I hope this isn't too wild a departure from the thread's mission. Apologies if it is.

 

Daedalix

It's definitely not "you just can't [evaluate performance]". You do it with knowledgeable officers (some guilds implement class leaders for all or some troublesome classes that need improvement) utilizing dmg meters and WWS. WWS is an and other similar tools provide in-depth breakdowns of exactly what a player is doing from the abilities they use, how often they use them, whether those abilities are landing, where they are standing, who is healing them, etc. There are a couple threads just on these forums detailing how to analyze and use these tools to great effectiveness. It's nothing but objective. There are ways to do things for each role/class and anything short of that or widely varying is inefficient (i.e. wrong) and performance (shown in WWS) will bare this out. Much of what Zoph mentioned is pertinent to evaluating members, he was just providing specific examples.

If you want to run a raiding guild or be a raid leader, then you have to research class mechanics and raiding strategies. With the knowledge of the fight and the knowledge of roles and what each player should be doing to adequately fill that roll (i.e. a rogue should never be parried. If they are, then you know they aren't standing behind their target) you can tell if they are quality players and good enough to keep around. Personally, when I was an officer in a raiding guild I spent almost the entire day researching fights and analyzing WWS parses.

Another test is: are you winning? When you win, everyone is happy. Clearly people are doing adequate work. Major tests, depending on your progression level, are built in by Blizzard. Brutallus is the current one for the bleeding edge. Teron is a major test of individual player "street sense". Bloodboil is a healing-intensive, coordination-dependent, and individual test of player skill. Vashj, for another example, is a great test of how well your dps does, how well each member communicates and how competent your raid members are and how much they pay attention. If you fail at any one fight and can't get it down, you have to ask people what went wrong. Tools such as WWS play a big roll in this.

I'm a resto druid. I've only raided as a resto druid and a holy pally (pre-TBC). I know healing inside and out. DPS I don't know much about. I speak on what I specialize in and generally leave the dps to those that know better.

20 or so specs (sounds like an okay number I guess) isn't that hard when you divide it up between a few knowledgeable players.

e: Quality players will always take constructive criticism and improve or strive to improve from week to week. Players who can't digest advice or execute what's desirable are the ones who won't cut the mustard. For example, a rogue who refuses to stand behind a target after you tell him or doesn't understand why this is beneficial should be cut as soon as you don't need to fill a raid slot.

 

Zophos

Well, to put it in context, we have a shadow priest who can do extremely well on the damage meters. None of us can figure out mechanically how he does it - that is to say, how he defeats the stereotype to such a great degree - but he's consistent at it from fight to fight and can even perform in the Top 5 in Hyjal. It's for this reason that I don't accept that shadow priests can't do well, I just understand they're not going to be top in damage in T6 like they sometimes were in T4. They bring more to the table than damage; I as a mage am worth little more than that in combat.

Right now, as we prepare for Sunwell, I have been having the DPS meet certain benchmarks for night according to Recount. We've just started up with this test, so I set it to 1000 DPS. (This simply measures all in-combat time, including trash, which is why it's relatively low to be fair.) In this past week of raiding Hyjal and BT, the SP I mentioned achieved it each night. We did a timed Zul'Aman run yesterday, and he by comparison did about 730 DPS on average, which is understandable given less synergy and raid buffs/debuffs. Looking at your Armory, I'd say your guild is probably at the same level we are, so I think that's a reasonable expectation. It's my intention to up it 100 DPS every two weeks, recognizing that not everyone will be meeting it. However, as mentioned in the post between ours, you can use WWS to great advantage along with the content of the Class Mechanics forum to recognize if a given person is functioning both properly and sufficiently frequently.

As a final sidebar, I'd just say that the Shadow Priest needs more quantitative metrics than just damage. Yes, it's important, and yes it's impacted by their group placement and active buffs (trinkets, bloodlust, drums of battle, etc.); these things must be considered in the overall assessment. I think people say "you just know" because group members can qualitatively sense how often things like VT are up, how much mana is being returned, and how well they retain uptime, from which they can then make rudimentary conclusions. That's not the quantitative, certain way, but it's typically the basis some maintain for their judgments.

Guild Master - Epignosis

 

Mearis

If a shadowpriest makes top 5 in Hyjal, it means your other DPS class are to blame. Even if he plays utterly flawlessly, the only class where shadowpriest do really well on in BT/Hyjal damage wise is Illidan.

 

Zophos

Entertaining though a comment like that may be, it's not true when you have 2 warlocks and 2 mages that far surpass the others. That's all I'll say.

EDIT: I suppose I will technically say more. I didn't mean to suggest our SP reaches Top 5 every time in Hyjal, just that we've witnessed it when running AOE light. That's all just to indicate that a SP performance doesn't have to be abysmal, it just shouldn't be expected to be overwhelming as it once was.

Guild Master - Epignosis

 

Helot

I'd have to say it conflicts with my general experience. But, of course, it depends on the player.

I've tended to find that people who take the time to level more than one 70, and gear them up, also take the time to research the class. However i've seen both sides of the coin.

I've seen a hunter who has problems DPSing level a holy priest, and rock at it.
I've seen a warlock with multiple 70 (read 4+) who is only 'adequate' on some of them, and bad on others.
And i've seen a mage with multiple 70's (read 6+) who is amazing on all of them.

Myself, i have a Paladin and a Rogue, both 70, both Kara/Gruul geared. It's not as advanced as most people are in here in terms of raiding, but i'm in a casual raiding guild. I know both my classes, inside and out, spec, gear, playstyle. I frequently find myself answering questions for both classes because i do my research (much of which is here, btw ^.-) and in the end, i think that's what seperates people.

Do they take the time to learn their class, learn how to gear/play their class, and then level another 70...

Or are they leveling 70's because they are 'bored' and just want something different.

it's the people who do it from boredom that i worry about.

Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.

 

Caryna

As a quick update I will fast forward from my last response in this thread. My guild is now almost exactly one month in existence and since our very first 25 people raid ever (Mount Hyjal trash to gauge our skills) we have made some "real progress". Magtheridon died on the 5th try (ok, you could argue he clicks the cubes by himself now) and the following week he was a clean one-shot followed by our first ever raid to Gruuls. Maulgar died on the second pull (first was a ninja pull by myself, duh) and also Gruul handed over his loot after the 16th grow on our first ever pull with only 21 people in the raid. Oh, and we also switched off Doomwalker which resulted in some nice extra cash for the guild bank from the BoE epics.

By now my guild is a little bit more well known on the server and people start to show more interest in joining. And I'll tell you what, if you want to start a raiding guild be prepared to invest a lot of time in non-raid issues. And I mean a lot.

You should start sorting out logistic issues as soon as possible. You provide consumables for your raiders? Let someone else sort them out while you do the group setups. Healing assignments? Let someone else do it while you refresh your memories about boss tactics.

If you use web based raid sign-ups, give someone else access to be able to post raids, manage users and members.

I myself have neglected these things and now I am in the progress of sorting it out. So my advice is: sort this stuff before you do your first raid, it will save you lots of time later on.

Another thing that's starting to become more "interesting" now is how to handle new applicants. We have several of those PvP spec'ed apps who are convinced that they'd be great asset for us in their S1 gear and their spec in perfectly viable. Another example is a holy priest who utterly refused to even consider a respec because she is convinced that her 28/33/0 spec is the best raid spec ever and Circle of Healing is crap. I turned her down because people who are not flexible about their spec are no use to us at the moment.

For us age is not restricted, we don't care if you are 14 or 50. And from experience I can tell that many times the "grown ups" act more childish than our youngsters. Recent example: some guy (trialist, in guild for a few days) /gquit'ing without notice because his mate didn't get an instant invite after posting an application.

Next stop this week is The Eye and I fully expect my gang to kill Voidreaver, Solarian and poke Al'ar a bit. This might not sound like much for most of the people on this forum, but for me as a "fresh" GM and RL and a bunch of people who are all new to "real" raiding these are interesting and exciting times.

I hope I don't bore too many people with this, I am just trying to show people who want to start their own raiding guild what's ahead of them so that they may be more prepared than I currently am.

You know that you play too much WoW if you partners pants become a rare drop.

 

brutalbovine

I have some questions to those in this thread who are familiar with guild maintenance, planning, etc. (if my post is off-topic, irrelevant, or whatever I'll delete it or a mod can).

I'm currently in a "hardcore" raiding guild (4 hours of raiding a day, 5 days a week). The guild is one of the few morning raiding guilds, and we seem to have blown through content quickly (I joined about a month ago, and in that time I've seen the guild's first Hydross, Leotheras, VR 2.4, Tidewalker, Fathom-Lord, and Al'ar kills). One point of contention in the guild is that the current raid leader (who is not the GM) is a very capable and experienced tank and leader, but is the biggest asshole most people in the guild have ever met. Personally I have no problem with this, as my sole purpose for joining the guild was to progress and I could care less if the leader yells at me til he's blue in the face as long as he does what he's supposed to come crunch time. It seems to affect other guildies emotionally, though (especially those who know him personally). One reason he seems to be so irritable is our lack of consistency. Last Wednesday we killed Al'ar, VR, Solarian, Hydross, and Lurker in about 4 hours. This Wednesday, we couldn't even manage an Al'ar kill (8 wipes, general screwups all around). The raid was called upon respawns. There was some talk afterwards of him leaving to take a break. With such talk also came the idea that the guild won't be able to progress without his leadership (the general consensus being that he's an ass, but he's an ass that people listen to).

Questions:
1.) Is this type of leader okay for a guild? Most people do what they're supposed to do out of fear of pissing him off, which typically works. On the other hand, anyone who screws up can expect a good chewing out, which tends to be humiliating and emotionally draining (as it's done in front of the entire raid).

2.) If the raid leader leaves and another, more sedate person takes his place, how do you get people to listen to you without sounding too strict? If that transition is made in our guild, I think it'll be rough (I think most of the players would be happier, but I think progress would suffer, which would probably hurt morale).

3.) Is a loss in progression speed an acceptable trade-off for a more "lovable" raid leader, or should the people who get upset just take it on the chin and get over it (or gquit)?

 

Runnybabbit

1. Okay is relative. Is seeing raid content all that you want out of WoW? If so, then following a jerk who delivers dead bosses is okay. If you want something more than dead bosses, then putting up with a jerk is not okay. Personally, I had several different goals when I was playing regularly. Progressing through raid content was one of those goals. If progession was the only goal my guild could help me achieve, I would (and did) look elsewhere.

2. Anyone replacing a dominant personality has their work cut out for them. Doesn't matter if the old leader was good, bad, or indifferent; a dominant personality sets the tone for the guild. The challenge for any new leader is to retain the core players and continue progress while overseeing a culture change. If the rank and file will accept it, I would propose at least one week (1-2 resets) off from raiding to give the new leader time to settle in. Run some heroics or 10-man stuff together, and let the new leader practice leading and build more confidence while you do some easier content where there isn't as much pressure. Then when you get back to 25-man stuff, the new leader won't be leading for the first time and at least 30-40% of the raid will have some experience being led by the new person. If you dive right back in to the most challenging fights you're doing as a guild, you're just asking to be frustrated. Set the bar a little lower, and hope to exceed expectations.

3. This is basically the same question as #1, isn't it? The only people who can answer this are the individuals asking the question. Whether you should accept your raid leader's behavior is irrelevant; the question is whether you will accept it. Again, personally, I wouldn't put up with it. I know I am a reasonably smart guy. I worked hard to be a good player. I am as unflinchingly critical of my performance as anyone, usually more so. So if my raid leader was regularly chewing me out for poor performance, I would take that as a sign that either (a) I'm not a good enough player to help this guild progress and should therefore look elsewhere, or (b) I'm being led by a prick and should therefore look elsewhere.

 

Cavein

Regardless of your current level of raiding or status on your server, having a closed "private" recruitment feature can make a huge difference in the number of applications you receive.

Some players who either think they are borderline applicants or may be in rival guilds will never apply to your guild if their application can be veiwed publicly.

 

Zophos

I've never quite grasped why raid leaders feel entitled to say what they want and when they want simply because they have maximum control. I lead raids and am the GM and I've always tried to be very clear on where "the line" is with the membership. Our having an age restriction allows me to speak to members as adults, and therefore from them I expect a similar return in behavior. In some cases, our members have children, and so when I tell them, "I shouldn't have to speak to you like you would speak to [them]" it seems to register. I don't expect perfection from our raiding team, but I also don't tolerate consistent errors. Said in the simplest of ways, you can be professional about the raiding scene and still hold your standards, all without entering "50 DKP minus" territory.

That having been said (and to answer your second question), a sedate leader is a patsy of another form. No matter the idiosyncrasies you must endure, every leader needs to have some form of assertiveness to them so that people respect their judgment. Assertive doesn't imply strict, it just implies the conveyance of an expectation. I can understand that raid leaders of a decent guild (by which now I mean those legitimately in T6) operate on testy nerves, but as long as the Push-to-Talk key is still there, I see no reason why one's thoughts can't be easily enough filtered prior to "distribution." I am sure this doesn't work with every guild, many of which I have known to be immature or which use Vent as their personal stump, but I suppose it's all a matter of what kind of guild you are either seeking or think you've joined. I myself render enjoyment from raiding success, and the membership we've formed recognize that everyone is individually responsible for that success, no matter who may be in charge at the time.

I myself took a loss in progression for peace of mind, because it never registered with me why someone would want to spend their free time unless they enjoyed their company. The guild I helped create and lead is not intended ever to be a model of success, but as someone I know puts it, it's often better to be the tortoise than the hare; slow and steady regularly wins the race. I think that pragmatic type of thinking will work for the overwhelming majority of guilds (which, no offense to most readers here, probably does not apply to them). I accept that people will want to leave a guild if that guild is not making any constructive effort over time to progress or lacks a coherent body of order, but I believe that people should be joining guilds with the understanding, as suggested above, that they are members of a community with unique and necessary responsibilities, and so some patience is in order if a clear leadership mechanism is outlined.

No amount of talking here will solve the global scope of guild problems, though I concede to having a preference in the outline of these types of things, having experienced them myself. Having been in a position of having to rebuild a guild once and form a new guild once as well, however, I do recognize many of the challenges one faces in so doing. Without a group of people in whom you can place confidence that they will succeed in some sufficiently acceptable period of time (and it is this period of time that often defines the "hardcore" debate), I don't know that any set of events will ever truly be to one's satisfaction.

Guild Master - Epignosis

 

brutalbovine

Thanks for the responses, Zophos and Runnybabbit.

 

ozweepay

Another sort of off-topic question, related to recent posts:

We've all seen it happen: you're wiping on a farm boss... over, and over, and over. The raid is quiet, but you know they're feeling demoralized and frustrated. Time to run back and rebuff for another pull.

What separates the avg RL from the truly great RL at times like this?

 

rayijin

The ability to change the mood / inspire focus. This can be done in a multitude of ways.

An average raid leader might say something like, "come on guys, lets go again. Farm status!"

A good raid leader would be able to analyze what went wrong, give a bit of constructive criticism / remind players of how they've excelled at a particular job in the past.

An exceptional raid leader will do something more unexpected and exciting. Humans in general get into patterns of activity - be it good or bad. When you interrupt that pattern - by asking a question to refocus their attention, or doing something different that will make people WTF? enough to be able to refocus them. IE, "This is gurtogg. She is a bitch. A really, really mean one. You just through a really long and painful divorce with her, and she took half of everything you own. You know what? It's payback time."

Or, depending on the mood/atmosphere, you can turn the fight into a meter race by getting your top DPS/healers riled up. Or call a 10 minute afk break. Or the old "last attempt" strategy. Variety is the spice of farm status.

Although there are threads dedicated to raid leading, a good raid leader can make or break a guild, and has an enormous impact on progression. One thing I've noticed is that a not-so-good guild (in terms of organization, morale, average skill/preparedness level, member retention etc.) can still progress well with an extremely good raid leader.

 

TrinityNZXT

I'd have to agree, if one isn't for the most part already in tune for the roll of guild leader and would need a self help guide odds are it wont last. It's kind of the reason in my opinion that so many guilds fail within the first month for that main reason.

 

Lamaros

This seems to be the most approprite thread for this issues, so:

What do people think about any guilds that spring up around WotLK aiming only at the 10-man raiding and not focusing on the 25 man?

Is it going to be a case where these guilds are primarily made up of friends and don't need to advertise themselves and recruit, or will it be a case of simpler and smaller guilds, but still guilds with a lot of the concerns of the bigger ones that exist today.

Are there going to be enough 'raiding' players around who want to focus on the 10-mans over the 25, or will the simple fact that 25-mans offer better loot, recognition, and harder challenges ensure that the 10-man devotees are generaly more casual groups?

 

Dynalisia

Ambitious players that spend a lot of time on the game will always be looking up. If you have these in your 10-man guild you can be guaranteed that they will eventually (indirectly) pressure the guild into growing and starting raiding 25-man modes, or that these players will move on.

 

Lamaros

I think that there's a chance of that being generally true. But then I know that I myself am an exception, so perhaps it's not as universal as we might think.

 

Raeken

I know some people in my raid that have several 70s, myself included, and we're able to pick a character and make sure he/she are completely ready for raiding. It's not just gear, it's reputation, it's various keys, heck it's even trying to get yet another 5kg epic mount. I think professions also play a big role in identifying if people know how to invest a lot of time in a character to polish them.

If you see one who's raid main is lacking in various prep aspects, it's usually telling whether they are there just for the raid or they want to min-max everything to give it their all. However, it's frustrating to try to rally people to follow what you do. Being on a huge server, RP one no doubt, people know there are a lot of other options out there and will always go to whatever raid will suit their style.

So going back to what the original poster said, it really does become a full time job for the raid leader, to try to keep tabs on everyone, keeping everyone motivated, recruiting new people, and finding ways to build loyalty.

 

Achillius

I recently transferred from a guild that was 3/6 Sunwell to one that was 10/10 Kara. The idea was simple: to start from scratch with people of all different levels of experience. We had experience ranging from Sunwell to some BT/Hyjal to some SSC/TK to no experience at all. Long story short, our guild imploded last week after getting its first Leo kill. We went from nothing to clearing Gruul, Mag, and 5/6 SSC, and then our guild suddenly collapsed. I was not the GM, and I tried to stay out of the limelight as much as I could so as not to make all this content "EZmode" by having a tank in 5/8 T6.

After doing a post mortem, here's what I think happened. I'm sharing this for the benefit of people who want to start from scratch.

1. Not nailing down raid times from the beginning.
I was pretty adamant early on about the necessity of being able to say "we raid on x,y,z from a-b." Instead the GM wanted to be more inclusive and make times that fit for everyone. It was only after two weeks or so that we actually set times.

2. Using raid signups.
Raid signups have never worked for me. To me they imply that a raid is optional, and that if you don't sign up, you are not obligated to attend. This can be great when you have a large population from which to draw, but imo it was one of the most glaring reasons for our abysmal attendance and consequently subpar performance. I have always been a fan of the philosophy that raiders know when the raids are, and what time, and they are expected to be there or to post otherwise in the forums.

3. Too many officers
Our GM was too nice, and too inclusive. He wanted people to be included in the decision-making, but all that ended up happening was that there were too many chiefs and not enough indians. Keep your officer corps small.

4. Calling content that your guild hasn't cleared 'easy'
Some of the members fell prey to the idea that "Hey, this is only Gruul's, why are we wiping?" or "Lol void reaver and lurker are loot pinatas." The first time you do a boss with a new guild, treat it like the first time you've done the encounter. Some fights (like VR for instance) have been changed dramatically recently. This also should lessen the amount of stupid mistakes because it's "lolVR"


Those are the four biggest takeaways I can see from the recent experiment that was <Sedition>. Hopefully they'll help someone down the line.

 

Ciske

The best advice I can give to anyone that starts a raiding guild, is to make sure you have a back up plan for everyone.

All your key people will one day be absorped by real life/burn out/find a guild that suits them better - these are inevitabilities that every good GM/officer team should plan for. You need to have more than one person that can adequately lead a raid, so that your main RL can afford to take stress breaks and holidays, without feeling he is ruining your progress. You need 2-3 people that can be your MT. You even need a person that can become GM when your current GM calls it quits.

If you have all this covered, the inevitable departure of key people can become friendly goodbye's and light on drama, as people know it will not kill your raidgroup or progress. You will also take a lot of pressure away from people - it's not good to have someone log on out of obligation or guilt and slowly burn out, because they feel they cannot be missed. Sometimes allowing that amazing but very unhappy player to move on, is the right thing to do, and it's easier if he has a back up.

All the other stuff speaks for itselves: your raids need to be well organised (start on time, end on time, clear expectations regarding loot, performance and preparation), you need to balance discipline with fun, you need to be clear on your guild's goals and recruit people that will fit in with those goals. If you have all of that covered, bosses will fall one by one and you can build on your successes to get even better.

But I would say the biggest mistakes raiding guilds make is rely too heavily on a small number of people and not allow others to develop into key roles & responsibilities, leaving them with no resilience when change happens.

 

Fragged

Just so we're all on the same page - can you either put in some links to the wws with the apparently impressive spriest dps you've seen, or perhaps at least provide some specific numbers.

Personally I'm currently with the opinion of everyone who's said "this says more about how bad your other dps is", because the mathematics of DPS scaling for all of the DPS classes are pretty well understood, and it simply ought not to be this way. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As you've not yet even provided a DPS benchmark, it's entirely possible you're not making an extraordinary claim, but assuming that you are in fact correct and this spriest is somehow doing something amazing, you're going to need to back those claims up with some wws reports.

 

Blacksen

I would add don't lower recruitment standards out of desperation to the list of making a successful raiding guild. I've lead this guild from Gruul --> 2/6 Sunwell in less than 6 months, and I guarantee that effective recruitment is the key to our success. A lot of guilds get shitty apps all the time, and in previous guilds I was in, they would accept those applications out of desperation - "We NEED a resto shaman in order to do Gruul. We don't care what his gear is." I'd rather have 3-4 nights of hellish raiding with a non-ideal raid roster than 2-3 weeks of carrying a bad player. I'd be your other raiders all feel the same. Everyone knows who the bad players are and who they're carrying. It's a formula for drama to invite players that are known to be bad.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Make EFFECTIVE RECRUITMENT POSTS and Have a PROFESSIONAL WEBSITE.


***********
There are 3 parts to doing this: the title, the actual post, and the website. The goal of the title is to get as many post views as possible. The goal of the post is to get as many website views as possible. The goal of the website (in terms of potential recruits) is to get as many applications as possible.
***********


Titles:
GOOD TITLES:
[H] 5/5 9/9 Needs FERAL DRUID
[H] Hyjal/BT CLEAR LF Holy Pally

BAD TITLES:
T6 guild Needs Holy Pally
- This one is bad because it doesn't list the specifics of your progression. If you're at 5/5 9/9, you need to post it. You're going to get less bites simply due to convention.

Knights of Kalimdor recruiting!
- No one cares what your guild name is. They care about WHAT you are recruiting and what your progression level is. This seems kinda obvious, but you'll still see it.

[H-PvE] 5/5 9/9 Needs RESTO SHAM
[H-EST] 4/5 4/9 Needs RESTO SHAM
- Unfortunately these are bad too. Posting "PvP" is fine, but "PvE" really isn't. You don't want to deter people away from your post, even if they're probably not able to make it. By having PvE on the title line, you're naturally giving PvP'ers an incentive to click somewhere else even if they were perfectly willing to transfer to a PvP server. By putting timezone (such as EST) in your post, you're detering people due to time zone even if they would have been able to make your raid times (my guild as an example raids 8pm-Midnight EST. Several people can still make 5pm-9pm PST.) By having the above title, they wouldn't click even though they could make the raid times.

[H] 5/5 9/9 needs holy pally
- This isn't that bad, but one thing I would like to emphasis is smart use of caps lock. While in posts and chat it's frowned upon, in titles it can be very effective. It's your way of "highlighting" what you need. In this case, it would have been better to do this: [H] 5/5 9/9 Needs HOLY PALLY. It simply looks more catchy and might catch the eye of that one Holy Paladin that could be your "star recruit."



Posts:
GOOD POSTS:
WoW Forums -> 2/6 Sunwell - Seeking Resto Sham + CoH Priest
- (My post), but it's effective due to the use of headers / bold / underline and the organization of information. The three most wanted bits of info are right at the top and are very easy to find.

WoW Forums -> [H-PvE-CST] 4/6 Sunwell LF Most Classes.
- Other than posting requirements, this is an excellent post. Organization of information is very clear. The title is perfect. They highlight important info and "bonuses" (free repairs oh-ma-gawd!). See requirements posting in "bad posts."

WoW Forums -> [PVE] TOP Morning Guild. 5/5 MH, 8/9BT, LFM!
- Effective use of headers. Good information organization.

BAD POSTS:
WoW Forums -> [PvP] 5/5 MH, 7/9 BT - Pal, Dru, Sha, Rog
- Short but bulky. This is kinda obvious. Thing I want to stress is to not make people "dig" for the information they want. Almost every single guild recruitment browser wants 3 bits of information: your progression, your raid times, and your guild website.

WoW Forums -> [PvE] 5/5MH 9/9BT-LF SPRIEST/SHAM-10pm-1amEST
- This one specifically is bad due to the restrictive nature. Don't put the "requirements for application" in the post, or if you do, don't bold them. You WANT applicants, not to deter them. For instance, someone who sees this might question their gear level and go "they're 5/5 9/9, they don't want me who just finished Tier-5/badge gear." I personally would love a full tier-5 applicant (assuming they had the skills). Even if they get rejected, it's important to have another application.

WoW Forums -> **PVE EST** Plan B Recruiting - 5/9 BT 4/5 MH
- Hello wall of text. I don't want to read you. Unfortunately, no one cares about your guild history or your dkp system or any of that. If they did (or if you really care), put it as a link on your website. Another thing (which I'll post more on again in a second) is no use of bold or underlined. It's all the same font.

WoW Forums -> [PVP] <Dread> 9/9 BT Sunwell Recruitment
- Again, wall of text-ish and posting restrictions at the start. However, the thing I want to play on here is effective use of bold/underline. People generally go to your post wanting specific bits of information, and they'll ignore almost everything else (they want raid times, progression info, and website. They'll ignore everything else on the post.) So, if you have an "edge" that you really want to play on, you've got to bold/underline it. This specific guild says quote: "-We have cleared from Gruul to 5/5 MH 4/9 BT in just over a month." but no one reads that! If you used some sort of thing to highlight it, it'd probably be a bit more eye catching and people might go "wow, they're moving fast." But to the people who don't read that, they appear to just be another mid-t6 guild.

WoW Forums -> 2/6 Sunwell - Seeking Resto Sham + CoH Priest
- A different kind of restrictive, but something else I want to play on. Don't post what you're "not recruiting" or "priority levels" of recruitment. You're either looking for a certain class or you aren't. If you aren't, then no one else cares that you aren't. I'm saying this in too many words, but it's important: don't post "priority levels" or what you aren't recruiting. Keep it simple.

One more thing regarding "yellow links" - not really sure when Blizzard will bring this back, but when they do, it's actually one of the most important things about a post! A lot of people won't even read your post and will just go to your website. Make sure it's EASY TO FIND by making sure it's a YELLOW LINK.


Website:
Not going to post examples on this one, but the idea that "we're serious about raiding, not making a good website" is false. Look at every successful raiding guild - every single one uses a professional website. It's a key to effective recruitment.
Keep the website clean and neat. By this, keep it organized. You NEVER want someone to say "I didn't post an app because I couldn't find the link." That's one more app that you didn't get.
Make sure they don't have to register to post an application. I know it's a hassle to go through b.s. posts or "spam," but it's important that they don't have to register. Most people won't give the time, or won't give the email address.
Use an HTML form application or some equivalent. Recount is a lot easier to fill out than just a wall of text in a recruitment forum. It's incredibly easy to learn, and is worth the time.



I hope I didn't offend anyone by picking specific website posts.

 

Dejime

Not really sure what you're talking about here on either example, as Protadins are probably the best Kara tanks around and Boomkins are pretty handy, especially at higher gear levels for 5% crit and 3% melee hit. Definitely makes up their lower DPS.

Anyways, more on point, I think the best way to handle this situation is to give most rational specs a shot. Obviously ridiculous specs should be ignored, but good players can play strange specs very well. Our combat dagger rogue hits 2500 DPS on Brutallus weekly, and is higher than our (MH glaive) swords rogue. Initially we thought the spec wouldn't work out and that swords *must* be better....but good players can play strange specs well. I've had good frost mages over my time in WoW-who would even surpass fire mages with similar gear. It's all about the playstyle. I think any rational spec should be given an opportunity to perform, with the understanding that if their DPS/TPS/healing isn't cutting it, they'll have to respec or be sat out of raids.

You might be surprised with what people can pull off.

 

Chalkdust

I agree. This is the number one thing that has kept my guild afloat. In most guilds the turnover rate is huge. When you don't have enough members on at raid time, and you have to call it, the moral hits rock bottom. Progression crawls to a stop and people start leaving. The guild recruitment forums are crap. You have to go through every single post as they fly by and hope that you find a player that fits your needs. While you bump your thread, hoping that someone finds it.

I wasted hours upon hours doing the above, having little to no result, until I snapped. That is when I started Looking For Guild World of Warcraft guild recruitment

I had no web design experience at all, and zero programing skills, but I knew what I wanted. I pulled this off from pure anger and had the help of a VERY cool guild leader. (Herdis) You can search guilds by and players by: Server, Server Type, Faction, Time Zone, Raid Start Time, and Raid End Time. It is everything that the guild recruitment forums should be. The ads expire unless they are updated, so that means that they are almost always current.

It has taken several months but we are up to 1,200 ish guilds with ads up currently, and about 450 players looking for guilds with ads up. All highly searchabe. This has freed up countless hours bumping threads, and scouring the forums, and found the guild a lot of great players and new friends.