So you want to start a raiding guild, do ya? - Page 5

Mr T · 09/25/08, 10:10 AM

It was very inspirational to read your post regarding a "serious" raiding guild that only raids two nights per week Chupavida, because that is exactly what we have been doing in my guild. We're on a small server with the most progressed guilds wiping on Brutallus at the moment. I agree that it is possible to see most of the end game content with limited available raid time. It is indeed a matter of letting some raids go at some point, not everyone can expect to get every single piece of loot from every instance.

Along the way though, the thing that has struck me as most important is to take raiding just as serious if you're aiming for 2 nights a week as you would if you were doing 4-5 nights. There are a couple of factors involved here that become even more important when trying this downsized raiding. We started with a very relaxed attitude of being a "casual" raiding guild, but after going through 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK (we started late) it's become obvious that we're not in fact casual: we're softcore but require just as much attention to details as the guilds that do hardcore raiding do. Without the same dedication people apply less and less energy, and you end up in a situation where raiding falls apart since "we're casual anyway".

- When people join a hardcore raiding guild they know what they are after most of the time. They know about consumables, being on time, reading up on tactics, dkp-systems and loss and so on. Many that join us have a simpler attitude, but we do in fact need that kind of commitment, even if it's fewer days/week.

- It becomes even more important to "screen" people upon recruitment. Recently we have invited lots of people in the belief that they would be filling a much needed raid spot, only to then learn that they after some consideration actually prefer pvp and didn't think that we'd mind since we're a casual guild. Lately we have started to recruit solely for pve, in the same manner hardcore guilds have, and after reading the first post in this thread I have come to realize that a lot can be gained by considering yourself devoted raiders, eventhough with less hours/week, and promoting yourself and your guild as such.

Even if one intends to raid less hours/week the officers still have to spend lots and lots of time, just as in a hardcore guild. We learned this the hard way, but feel more secure now going into LK, where we intend to try and keep up with the rest of the raiding guilds on the server. It's not a question of only raiding 4-5 nights a week or not at all, there are alternatives.

Chupavida · 09/25/08, 1:40 PM

Nice post Mr T. Hopefully we can manage to create this guild I'm dreaming of, since that's all it is at this point. If nothing else it will be a fascinating study on the wow population, and whether a guild that maintains a zero tolerance for fail while only raiding two nights a week can actually exist. It all depends on if there are enough people like me, people who know their class and do their homework, but who can't be in the best raiding guilds due to time constraints. And even if they exist, if I can manage to find enough of them who are in the market for a new guild to transfer/reroll to get mine going.

solbergb · 09/26/08, 2:00 PM

This thread has really clarified a lot of my thinking going into WOLK on what kind of guild I want to be in.

There is a lot of truth to the idea that the time to progress is tied to the weakest link on the raid. Even in 5 and 10 mans I've seen this. It was pretty sobering when I realized that a lot of the time, being the best ranged DPS I can be can have zero impact on success if Fred over there can't learn to do his freaking job. We all still wipe no matter what my personal performance is. Some examples:

1. Tank can't get aggro on more than one opponent at a time. Not even two. Healers need DPS to tank for them.
2. Healer is standing idle because tank is taking minimal damage while raidwide damage is slaughtering DPS
3. DPS pulls aggro. Again. Within all taunt cooldowns. And I stood too close to that DPS and got cleaved too.
4. Somebody consistently can't figure out LOS pulls and stands in a way to defeat it.

So when I'm interviewing my WOLK guild here's some questions I'll ask.

1. Is there somebody whose job it is to tell underperformers what they're doing wrong?
2. If the underperformers don't shape up, will they get booted? How soon? how many chances/how long to improve?
3. Is there somebody whose job it is to eliminate people causing social friction in the raid, again first with a warning to change behavior, then by eliminating them?
4. Is there anyone exempt to #1-3 for any reason. What reasons? (eg, he's a founder, he's a good friend, he's somebody's SO, he's our highest DPS rogue, he's our only shaman). Frankly I don't think there are any good reasons for this. Underperforming seriously wastes everybody's time. Social friction destroys the fun and causes your best people to leave.

I want and need feedback on my performance, and if I'm the weak link, I expect to be asked to not come to a raid where I can't "get it" and to be kicked out entirely if such problems are more than isolated incidents. I don't want to be "The guy" that is talked about in private chat but thinks he's doing ok. Similarly if anything in my behavior is offending people I want to know too. I'm a mature adult, I want to work with mature adults.

I actually like the infraction system on the EJ boards a lot, even though I've been dinged a couple times. I deserved it. I try to do better. I'm still allowed to post.

Same principle with raiding. Or other social activities. It's more fun if the people who are a drag on the group can be removed. It's a tough job but to me it's actually a more important thing in a progression guild officer than pretty much any other quality. It is about equal to skill at recruiting and retaining talent. If you can both recruit sufficient people and weed out people who can't learn and/or are obnoxious you will progress better.

If it turns out I'm not up to the guild's standards, I want to be told so I can join another that's at my level. I don't play professional baseball either, but if I did, I would not expect the pitcher's girlfriend to be shortstop unless she was capable of doing that job. And I would expect the guy acting like a jerk to be benched/suspended to think about his behavior, fired if he couldn't learn.

Vieris · 09/26/08, 2:28 PM

I've been the leader of a mid-range raiding guild for some time now, and I constantly struggle with the issue of "subs" and "rotations." Going to Wrath, I've touted off about how I don't wants any subs, just a roster of full-time raiders that rotate. I just don't actually know how to effectively do this with a rather simple system that requires minimal administration.
The only conclusion I've come to is that I have to depend on the raiders to communicate and switch in and out with each other. I do have officers, however we are all working folks who don't have a ton of time outside of raids to make complex rotations with perfect oversight. Hoping someone here has a hint or two for us to work from.

sovelis41 · 09/26/08, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Vieris

I've been the leader of a mid-range raiding guild for some time now, and I constantly struggle with the issue of "subs" and "rotations." Going to Wrath, I've touted off about how I don't wants any subs, just a roster of full-time raiders that rotate. I just don't actually know how to effectively do this with a rather simple system that requires minimal administration.
The only conclusion I've come to is that I have to depend on the raiders to communicate and switch in and out with each other. I do have officers, however we are all working folks who don't have a ton of time outside of raids to make complex rotations with perfect oversight. Hoping someone here has a hint or two for us to work from.

My views may or may not be for you, but I'll give you my take on this. My philosophy, overall, as both a raid leader and an officer, is pretty laid back. My first raiding guild had more policies than a Fortune 500 firm, and there were fiexed rotations and spreadsheets for everything. Our officer group tends to only put things down as 'policy' if they involve things like DKP, guild ranks, friend/family invites, etc.

I would also call us a mid-range raiding guild, and for the entire summer we were cancelling raids due to lack of attendance from a needed class or just the raid group as a whole. We decided to write up and post a standby policy, and recruited in nearly every class a good number of people. We spelled out exactly how to go about getting on standby, recieving dkp, and then the raider's obligation to be ready whenever they are needed if on standby. It took a couple weeks to get going, but has culminated in me finally being able to change composition boss-to-boss in Sunwell with relative ease.

When it comes to individual classes, I leave it up to that class' assigned offer and their class as a whole to decide who is raiding what and where, and for how long that evening (though I tend to lean towards more experienced/skilled players for progression raids). Those that understand the needs for a certain encounter (class distribution), and will do what it takes to progress knowing that they will get their shot, will praise you for such a system. Had we actually been trying to maintain this since the start of Tier 6, we might be further up in our server's progression. The biggest step for me, personally, was doing the actual switching. What I ended up doing was just telling that class, or their officer, "I'm taking 1 $spec_class to $encounter, who am I swapping out?" Give the class some room to decide on their own, but sometimes you'll have to put the hammer down and swap out people that are known to be bad at a fight's mechanics for various reasons.

Ungeir · 09/26/08, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by Vieris

I've been the leader of a mid-range raiding guild for some time now, and I constantly struggle with the issue of "subs" and "rotations." Going to Wrath, I've touted off about how I don't wants any subs, just a roster of full-time raiders that rotate. I just don't actually know how to effectively do this with a rather simple system that requires minimal administration.
The only conclusion I've come to is that I have to depend on the raiders to communicate and switch in and out with each other. I do have officers, however we are all working folks who don't have a ton of time outside of raids to make complex rotations with perfect oversight. Hoping someone here has a hint or two for us to work from.

I've been in a couple of guilds that have managed to work with very tight rosters (I think one was 28 people for a very long time), and it's certainly doable. However you have the following issues:

a) You need extremely high attendance from everyone, or you just can't do this. You need people who can give ample warning for when they can't raid.

b) You are extremely vulnerable to people leaving the guild. All guilds dread losing their main tank or best healer - but it's a much more devastating blow for a small guild. Also in TBC the synergy hybrids, such as shadow priests and enhancement shaman are very nasty to lose. It can kill progress very fast when a key person leaves.

c) You don't have much flexibility in raid composition, unless people have very well-geared alts. You can't add an extra melee group for a particular boss. You can't adjust the number of tanks and healers in the same way as other guilds.

What you get in return is people who complain less (but probably burn out more easily due to having to attend a lot) and it helps enormously on the progression speed of the guild, since fewer people = fewer resets to fully gear up everyone. Also stable composition and not having new people in the raid for the first couple of weeks on progression bosses speeds up the learning process.

So to sum up - it is very much doable but you need a certain kind of player to make it work - you need a guild of those people who sign up and show up for every single raid. These are not always the best players - but it will be difficult for you to take a super-skilled player who does not have near 100% attendance, since that will immediately cause the exact issue you want to avoid - rotations.

Mr T · 09/27/08, 7:59 AM

Originally Posted by Ungeir

c) You don't have much flexibility in raid composition, unless people have very well-geared alts. You can't add an extra melee group for a particular boss. You can't adjust the number of tanks and healers in the same way as other guilds.

This is true, but subject to change (hopefully somewhat) come WotLK. I usually haven't been a big fan of changes across the board that have standardized classes/pets/talents in a way that make the different classes or mechanics feel less unique, I suppose I've felt it makes the game more dull. But the changes to buffs etc. in raid environments will hopefully help deal with this problem to some extent. Hopefully you won't need such a big raid list with moron fillers that have to be rotated to fill specific roles.

udalan · 09/28/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Chupavida

Nice post Mr T. Hopefully we can manage to create this guild I'm dreaming of, since that's all it is at this point. If nothing else it will be a fascinating study on the wow population, and whether a guild that maintains a zero tolerance for fail while only raiding two nights a week can actually exist. It all depends on if there are enough people like me, people who know their class and do their homework, but who can't be in the best raiding guilds due to time constraints. And even if they exist, if I can manage to find enough of them who are in the market for a new guild to transfer/reroll to get mine going.

The problem I found is that as the fewer days a week guild falls behind the many days a week guild, some members start to want more and either raid casually with the faster guilds, or increase their play-time/week so as to raid with the most progressed guild. Which is unfortunate because the smaller you are with smaller raid times, every time you lose that person it hurts alot more.

Mr T · 09/28/08, 1:31 PM

That can be a problem, I agree, but the whole point of a guild like this is to gather the people that want to raid seriously but lack the time to do it hardcore. Ideally, no one will want to leave for one of the servers 5-nights a week guilds. Also, with an efficient and serious attitude and organization I agree with a previous post that a guild like this can become equally (and in some extreme cases) or even more efficient than a "standard" hardcore guild.

LucidityAxel · 10/02/08, 12:47 PM

We are in a similar situation, raiding three nights per week instead of just two. We started in T5 about a year ago and are now working on M'uru. You don't have to raid five nights per week to get solid progression; you just need a group of people are all interested in the same thing.

Mature people who have a job and a family (aka a real life) cannot do 100% or even 90% attendance. It's just not feasible. We try to set 75% as our target attendance, and rotate people on a regular basis. This makes us less brittle when the inevitable real-life things pop up, and helps to cushion the blow a bit when someone stops raiding entirely.

With two nights per week, I think you will progress more slowly but you will progress as long as you keep at it.

Balog · 10/14/08, 3:26 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

I think many guilds somehow want to prove themself something by killing this or that, but I think that is only really attractive to males from 16 to perhabs 24. Our point is to use raiding as an fun after work. I can't really see the achievement in becoming raiding guild Nr. 1 on an server no one else cares about.

An excellent point. WoW is a game. It should be fun, not an important life achievement. Being a good husband and father, serving one's country with honour etc are things to be proud of. Beating instances in a videogame? Not so much. Which leads to.......

Originally Posted by brutalbovine

One point of contention in the guild is that the current raid leader (who is not the GM) is a very capable and experienced tank and leader, but is the biggest asshole most people in the guild have ever met.

I've never understood the mindset of people who allow some random person (statistically speaking generally a late teens to early twenties guy) to berate them over a game. But then I've never understood why so many women stay in abusive relationships either.....

Some one who is such a defunct personality that they feel the need to verbally degrade another human because they aren't clicking their mouse and hitting their keys quickly and accurately enough is a serious waste of oxygen. Obviously we all get frustrated when someone is a flaming idiot and causes us to wipe. But courtesy and respect are basic tenents of civilized discourse. Try to teach them if you feel it's worthwhile, break it off if not. In other words, a good swift /gkick is always appropriate, screaming obscenities over vent is not.

Originally Posted by LucidityAxel

Mature people who have a job and a family (aka a real life) cannot do 100% or even 90% attendance. It's just not feasible. We try to set 75% as our target attendance, and rotate people on a regular basis. This makes us less brittle when the inevitable real-life things pop up, and helps to cushion the blow a bit when someone stops raiding entirely.

With two nights per week, I think you will progress more slowly but you will progress as long as you keep at it.

Very true. I enjoy many aspects of this game, and Lord knows I've squandered too much time on it to get all uppity about anything. But being "hardcore" and "accomplishing" great things in terms of downing bosses etc is not that important. I realize that most hobbies include a lot of prep time that is not overly enjoyable, but at the end of the day it's still just a game and not a reflection of your relative worth as a human.

Kokolums · 10/14/08, 8:39 PM

From my experience as a raid leader, here is an outline on how to build a successful guild.

Goals: Develop good players that show up and don't go afk.

You are a teacher and a recruiter.
You are a teacher and a recruiter.
You are a teacher and a recruiter.

Accept responsibility for being a raid leader:

You are never going to have the perfect raid. Therefore, it is imperative that you have the skills to get more out of the talent on-hand. Finding the "best-skilled" players is the wrong approach. YOU as the raid leader should coach them up so they become skilled. That's your JOB. It is better to have players willing to learn, eager to log in, and that don't go afk. Does it really matter if someone is really skilled when they hold up the raid for 30 minutes every nite because they drop in and out? Respect the wishes of the other 23 raid members that are ready to go.

Overrecruit:

Recruiting is one of the major jobs. Again, do not place an emphasis on finding the "best players" that are wrapped in a nice little bow waiting for you to unpack, drop in the raid, and pwn. Give new talent a shot. Give them a chance to improve. Make them succeed. Teach.

Here is how I started out with a fresh kara guild about a year ago. I started out by overrecruiting. I needed a group of 10. I got 17. I told all 17 to show up and placed 7 on the waiting list. The 7 were told to wait outside the instance. Someone went afk on us ONCE. I immediately dropped them from the raid and brought in a replacement. I NEVER had a problem with an AFK ever again in this guild, because I effectively communicated that I had a zero tolerance policy. I chain pulled as much as possible to keep them from getting bored. If someone was clearly underperforming on the charts, I moved them out and brought in a new guy and gave them a shot. It was a competition to see who could do better.

In short order my guild was a machine. They showed up, they never went afk, we chained pulled, and we downed bosses. And we even had fun too. I didn't mind people joking around. And this group wasn't even the "best players". But I set clear boundaries and created a positive environment to win with.

crimsonsentinel · 11/02/08, 8:40 PM

I was wondering what tools people use for signups and scheduling.

Grakmarr · 11/02/08, 9:26 PM

Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel

I was wondering what tools people use for signups and scheduling.

Our guild uses phpRaider for our raid calendar. Although I imagine we'll likely begin using the new in-game calendar feature as well, to snag those few folks who may not check the guild webpage often enough. Whatever you choose to use, I'd suggest also having the Guild Message of the Day point people in the right direction whenever a new raid is posted. Never underestimate the forgetfulness of some of your members.

LucidLiving · 11/03/08, 1:35 AM

I found it very helpful to read this thread. If you happen to not know what you're doing but you want to create a guild you may want to over extend yourself and get someone who knows more than you to help teach you how to lead a guild. I mean that should be one of the first steps if you are so inexperienced, at this late in the Burning Crusade, most players arent looking to join some random guild they know nothing about. You also need to try to be friendly and demonstrate skill and leadership OUTSIDE of the guild or recruitment. There are not infinite amounts of people on the servers and more often than not a low level player who you insult, or otherwise under mind will come back to haunt you. Perhaps while you're not online you could be decreasing your reputation due to slander and whispers behind your back. This all leads to CHARACTER. You must have social character and personality to be a guild leader (or leader of much anything else for that matter)

That's just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth. =]

Patthepriest · 11/03/08, 8:10 AM

I have never really been in a position of power (Officer/RL/Leader) within a guild. But i do feel that in my guild and from my (a raider) perspective our GM does a very good job.
The fact that he knows a lot about all classes is a big plus and he is always willing to learn which gives a positive view and impression to the rest of the guild which keeps moral high. He has a relationship with the raiders but not so close as to make people think they can slack off and get away with it.
Another thing i think is that giving raiders influence on things, or at least allowing them to put their point across towards raid tactics and guild issues makes them feel more at home, but not forcing them to put in ideas is important aswell. I know that some of the best players/raiders in my guild are very quiet and would not enjoy being made to put their ideas forward, and that's just personality and choice rather than ignorance.

khel · 11/03/08, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel

I was wondering what tools people use for signups and scheduling.

I highly suggest not using sign-UPs. Set a raid schedule, and expect everyone to have 100% attendance. Then have them sign OFF if something comes up. It works a lot better and sets the right expectations.

crimsonsentinel · 11/03/08, 10:51 PM

I'm setting up a weekend casual raid for people's friends and alts in my guild, not for the main weekday raid, so there's no way I can expect 100% attendance.

sovelis41 · 11/06/08, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel

I'm setting up a weekend casual raid for people's friends and alts in my guild, not for the main weekday raid, so there's no way I can expect 100% attendance.

I'm not sure it has to be an overly complicated ordeal. Our server usually handles things like this through the realm forums or the public areas of guild forums.

Hadera · 11/06/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chupavida

I'd like to throw out for discussion the idea of a "serious" guild that only raids two nights a week with a third "soft" raid night for fun/non progression stuff like working on achievements, world PVP, guild battlegrounds etc. Two nights and serious might seem like an oxymoron, but after a couple failed "real" raiding guilds, and conversations with other players whose opinions I respect, I see no reason why a guild made up of very skilled and mature players couldn't kill every boss and clear every instance while only raiding two nights a week. They won't do it as fast as the best 5 nights a week guilds, but they would do it. All I have to do is subtract the number of wipes due to preventable individual fail from the last year of my life, and the amount of time my guilds would have needed to kill bosses would have been a mere fraction of what it actually was.

I think there are enough people who play this game who are sufficiently skilled that would be interested in a more "casual" raid schedule, people with families, school, work etc. that preclude membership in a more traditional raiding guild. I myself have a wife, a kid, college courses, and an upcoming LSAT to worry about. I'm on the verge of creating such a guild on my server with the intention to start as small as necessary, and grow as slowly as necessary to maintain the absolute highest standards. I will only recruit people who are as immune to individual fail as humanly possible while avoiding the primadonnas, flakes, lootwhores, racists/pervs and otherwise undesireable dross that permeates my and every server. Crushridge has nothing like this, and while I'm sure I could find a home on another realm, I'm looking to stay where I am due to friends and family (who in most cases wouldn't be involved in the new guild)

I also intend to make it work on Crushridge partly because the server fails as much as it does. At the moment, no guild of either faction has killed Kil'jaeden, and most of the handful of guilds in Sunwell have either been stuck on Brutallus for months, yes months, or stuck on M'uru for just as long. Raiding 5 nights a week has done nothing for these guilds besides burn out the few amazing players they had, driving many to transfer off realm.

So a truely stellar "Serious Casual" guild would really stand out on my server, clearing content at a slow pace by "world first" standards, but much faster than the terrible guilds that pass for high-end here.

Just a few nuts and bolts: I intend to recruit rerolls and transfers, using every resource available. Since the timing is great for that, especially with the refer-a-friend program and PVE --> PVP transfers, I think now is the time to get started and prepare for WotLK. I don't have any expectation of this working without a lot of players from other realms deciding that it would be something they want to be a part of. Crushridge just doesn't have the talent pool necessary to pull it off. We'll have all the things a good guild should have, a strong leader, knowledgeable officers, a well used website, fair dkp, good raid leadership, a well managed gbank etc. I hope to attract the kind of people who will want to invest themselves in something that at least on paper seems very valuable. I don't want to be a "gear up" guild, or a guild where people get in for the loot they want and then bail. I intend it to be a place where big boys and girls get together to make the most of the time they have to play a really great game, rather than a place where you feel like the only one in the room that doesn't need to put a helmet on in the morning.

so,

thoughts?

I was under the impression that DMT filled the role of 'casual hardcore' on Crushridge, and that they're currently killing KJ.

Grakmarr · 11/07/08, 3:17 AM

Originally Posted by Hadera

I was under the impression that DMT filled the role of 'casual hardcore' on Crushridge, and that they're currently killing KJ.

His post was from about six weeks ago, so that may not have been the case at the time - especially with the gigantic nerf we just had.

I know our guild went from 1/9 BT with one kill of Naj'entus in a half dozen attempts to 7/9 BT with one-shots on every boss we went to in a single two hour post-nerf raid. It went from being our weekly mettle-test in seeing if we were ready for making a push at real progression, to being a total laugh-fest. We're now using content to gear up ALTS that six weeks ago we never dreamed of ever seeing at level seventy. We're not any more or less casual than we were then, but our progression has changed dramatically. Same with hundreds of other guilds, I'd imagine.

So if these guys were killing KJ before the patch, then they were most certainly 'casual' only in name. But what a guild is doing in our current post-patch world can't really be used as an indicator of how casual or how hardcore they are. I'm sure there's plenty of hardcore guilds out there that aren't raiding anything at all right now - since Wrath hits in less than a week. On the same note, I'm sure there's plenty of BT/Sunwell PuGs forming every night, regardless of the server. What a guild was doing six weeks ago - and more importantly - what they're going to be doing six weeks from now, these are the real tests.

For guilds like ours, for the newer and the more casual raiding guilds out there, the giant nerf was as much of a blessing as I'm sure it was a curse for the more hardcore guilds. It got people interested in raiding who may not have been before, and it brought a much wider array of viable options - in turn opening the doors for a slightly more serious raiding schedule. For our guild, pre-patch: Two Kara runs, two ZA runs, and one SSC or TK a week was all anyone had the time or interest in running. Now that BT is open to us, and MH is basically farm-mode, we're seeing a great deal of new members - both new level 70s, and older ones who lost/never had interest in raiding - who want to see that content before we all move on to Northrend. Many of these people have come on raids with us when they may not have before, liked what they saw of our guild dynamic, and have decided to stick around and see what we can do in the new expansion.

Whether or not these people decide to stick around for the long haul (and we certainly hope that they will), these changes gave us the opportunity and the new blood required to make a more serious push for progression in Wrath. I'm seriously looking forward to it.

So for anyone reading this thread who is still interested in starting a raiding guild, my suggestion for the next six days would be to advertise on your realm's section of the forums that you're killing some bosses before Wrath and that you intend to carry that momentum over into Northrend. I promise you there's still plenty of people out there who want to see Illidan/KJ/what-have-you before the content becomes completely obsolete, and once you've hooked them with the thought of accomplishing that, you might end up with some good new members on your hands.

Neds · 11/07/08, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel

I was wondering what tools people use for signups and scheduling.

This discussion so far has focused on the "soft" skills required to run a guild but I too am more interested in the actual tools of guild management. The barrier that I find myself up against is how to actually implement my "edge" rather than how I plan to manage it. I know when I want to schedule my raids and what rules surround attendance etc, but I don't know which applications will make it easiest for both myself and my raiders.

Firstly, what individual components are required? A web portal, a calendar, a sign-up tool, something to track DKP with, a forum and voice coms all spring to mind although obviously individual guilds will have different exact needs (e.g. loot council doesn't need a DKP tracker).

Secondly, what services are available to supply these tools? Is it better to put together individual components yourself or go for one of the all-in-one packages that are available? What are the costs? What are the technical skills required and how time-consuming are the solutions? If you don't know php, ftp and the idiosyncracities of hosting solutions, should you just give up now?

I've spent some time looking at what is out there but it seems difficult to determine which are any good without actaully comitting to setting one up and administering it for a while. This is one area where direct experience is almost certain to be invaluble to those who have never done it before. My personality lends itself to presenting complete solutions rather than patching things in as I go along so ideally I want a fully functional site before doing any major recruiting.

One major problem I have with all the package solutions I've seen so far is that they have no "work friendly" mode/skin. Looking at websites covered in demons fighting each other is not generally the done thing where I work and I'd like to be able to at least follow forum discussions during the day when time permits. This requirement alone may push me into a solution that involves setting up my own forum from scratch but I am concerned that it would take more time than I have available.

♦ alinna · 11/07/08, 4:07 PM

There are a lot of sites that offer guild website packages that include forums, DKP-tracking, calendar/sign-up tools, image galleries, wiki, roster lists. Many of them also have built in skins that you can customize to make it fit your guild. I don't personally use any of these sites, but most of them should have a demo site that you can play around with to see if it would fit your guild. I think most of these sites run about $10/month or less, depending on the number of features you want for the site.

For setting up your own site, if you want to minimize the amount of actual installations you need to do from using FTP to configuring actual settings on the server, quite a few web hosts will have software that can install popular packages (such as webportal, forums, wiki, image gallery) onto the site with you filling in a few pieces of information here and there. The downside to this is that it can be difficult to get a coherent look with the site overall without putting quite a bit of work into changing the default skins. Also, it takes some time if you want to install things such as item linking or modify a DKP system to fit your needs, and some of these modifications do require a bit of knowledge of how to manipulate the files.

Octaviann · 11/08/08, 5:02 PM

How do you teach people to raid? This seems like the biggest hurdle between my guild and raiding. We're mainly a casual guild, which in this case means that we're a group of friends who like to play together and enjoy doing heroics with each other, but, for the most part, have absolutely no raid experience whatsoever. We've done a couple of Kara runs just to get the feel for raiding and we're going to launch into raiding for real when WOTLK comes.

The problem I have (I lead or help lead our raids) is that I'm convinced that some of our members just don't have what it takes to raid. For example, in our latest Kara run, on Shade of Aran, several of our members consistently failed to stand still on Flame Wreath, despite me announcing it over /rw every single time. Are some people just so bad at following simple directions, or is it possible to teach them? My main dilemma is that, because we are a guild of friends and not a raiding guild per se, I can't exactly deny these people raid spots due to lack of skill, so I'm forced to either teach them or live with their faults, resigning myself to the fact that we will never be able to do certain things in raids.

Arantes · 11/08/08, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by Octaviann

How do you teach people to raid? This seems like the biggest hurdle between my guild and raiding. We're mainly a casual guild, which in this case means that we're a group of friends who like to play together and enjoy doing heroics with each other, but, for the most part, have absolutely no raid experience whatsoever. We've done a couple of Kara runs just to get the feel for raiding and we're going to launch into raiding for real when WOTLK comes.

I can sympathize with you and though in your situation I wouldn't want to leave either, maybe I can add to this discussion and suggest something.

The problem I have (I lead or help lead our raids) is that I'm convinced that some of our members just don't have what it takes to raid. For example, in our latest Kara run, on Shade of Aran, several of our members consistently failed to stand still on Flame Wreath, despite me announcing it over /rw every single time. Are some people just so bad at following simple directions, or is it possible to teach them? My main dilemma is that, because we are a guild of friends and not a raiding guild per se, I can't exactly deny these people raid spots due to lack of skill, so I'm forced to either teach them or live with their faults, resigning myself to the fact that we will never be able to do certain things in raids.

Here's my question followed by my "philosophy": Are they having fun? In the end if they are wiping on Aran because they keep repeating the same mistake, but they come out of the evening saying "wow, that was fun" there's not much you can do. You can try to push them not to make those mistakes, but you might not be able to push them much if it ruins their fun. On the other hand maybe discovering that doing better and getting cleaner kills and one shots can be fun for them. As I said above you can try to push them towards that, try to get the idea across that it will be more fun for them.

To me wiping is no fun, regardless of how casual the raid is, if the wipes occur because of avoidable or especially repeated mistakes. Because my guild only raids twice a week and there were no ZA runs happening I put one together myself and while I am not a guild officer or class leader on my ZA runs I am the leader and I take the time to do all the leadership things necessary. More to the point of "wiping is no fun" I always take a few minutes to explain things and go over important details even if the group that day happens to be ten regulars.

You have to find a balance and if sitting down and going over important details is too serious for your group then that will be just as frustrating or "no fun" to them as watching them blow people up during flame wreath is for you. Nobody's psychic and if you're going to lead a raid and make sure everyone has fun, you need to take steps to better understand what your raid members want, what is fun for them and balance it all out into an experience that is fun for all 10 players. Raid leaders whether you talk about hardcore or casual guilds still have to do all the little things necessary to make sure the raid goes well and that can make them seem a little less than casual sometimes when a casual group is still learning, but there is a balance there and your group can reach it.