Stardusty

Having played my freshly minted 70 shaman for the past couple of weeks, I am loving the slight shortcut provided by the PVP gear. I find your portrayal of the PVP system as a insta-gear-me-in-purple-loot-button at this point of the end game progression to be rather oudated. 5 man dungeons were oudated more than a year ago, as were the old classic raid instances were 2 years ago and so forth.

Not wanting to turn this into a casual vs. hardcore clusterfuck, but Blizzard has chosen to implement this system because it keeps alot of people playing. It may not fall in line with what you consider to be the cornerstone of character development, but your views are not representative of the many other subscribers who enjoy running amok in the same old battlegrounds day after day.

The way I look at it, is that other people can play WoW in the way they enjoy it and you spend your time playing it the way you enjoy it, and it should not impeed on you having your fun unless you secretly harbour wishes to *faceroll* people in blues and greens like the good old days. Ah, my level 60 paladin with [Twig of the World Tree], good memories indeed.

 

Calixtus

Why should PvP be the gear dispensing mechanism?

How is battleground PvP - which in terms of time-spent-doing still trumphs arenas as THE PvP for most people (though I don't think I can say I've spent more time in an AV queue than I have in an arena anymore) - benefited by the presence of people with no interest in PvP except as a stepping stone to surpass a PvE progression? A PvE progression that is not particularly taxing, considering available BoE epics, badge gear boosts and reputation epics. PvP is currenly the easiest way of gearing up fresh/undergeared characters, but it is by no means the only one available, nor is it - in my opinion - the ideal choice for that particular mechanic from a game design point of view.

PvP is the easiest way to gear your alt because PvP rewards you without demanding an investment of time/effort. I don't *need* to know what I'm doing to get epics from AV. At no point am I required to adapt my spec, my playstyle, my tactics in order to gain access to the epic rewards. Even the simplest of 5 mans requires some element of adaption, thought and effort because you need to actually succeed to be rewarded.

 

• Calantus

I would find a "create a new 70 character with the same gear progression as your most progressed character" very appealing. An alt or new main does not progress until it reaches the main's level of progression. Going from S3 to greens then crawling back to S3 is not progression, it's treading water for however long that took just to play a slightly different flavour of the same game.

This is also PVP where you cannot target content suitable to your gear level. As soon as you make a new arena team you'll be pitted against S3 teams. As soon as you step into a BG you're signing up to be plowed by S3 players. I've had people /spit on my rogue and tell me to gtfo BGs until I gear up... but where do they expect me to get this gear otherwise? If it wasn't for the ability to lose myself into competitive gear I might as well not even play my rogue as he'd be cannon fodder for months on end unless I get friends to carry him. I like how it is now. Infact, I'd like it sligly easier than it is now. But if it has to stay where it is, that's fine.

Also, cut out the counter-strike BS. If I wanted to play counter-strike I'd go play it. I'm playing WoW because I want to play WoW. Wanting it to move a little more in one direction, or stay the course it's going in one area doesn't make me a frag-head who should go play counter-strike. I could say the same to you, that you should go play Lineage if you want so badly to have to stick your dick in a vice to progress. Only I won't because then I couldn't tell you to cut that shit out.


EDIT: Calixtus I honestly and truly don't care if/when/how PVP gear allows you to skip raid content. As long as a character can gear themselves for PVP, through PVP, and in a reasonable timeframe I don't care what they do or don't do to ensure it doesn't impact PVE.

 

deadlights

This debate has taken place more times than I can count. There is no good to be found in rehashing it. For the record I agree with you re: if I want to play deathmatches I'll play a shooter. It's not what I started and continue playing WoW for. But like it or not Arena is now arguably the centerpiece in Blizzard's vision of how to keep WoW successful, so it's not going anywhere. Either you learn to live with it or you move on.

Once my guild downs KJ I'll be moving on.

 

ildon

I would contest that the real "gear dispensing mechanism" is going into Kara with a T6 geared prot paladin and a T6 geared healer and walking out in 2 hrs with 22 badges and potentially huge upgrades for a fresh 70. It's a hell of a smaller time investment than honor grinding at least, and also completely sidesteps the "5 man progression". The only difference between it and honor grinding is that you can only do it once a week instead of all week, so it's not as advantageous (relatively speaking) to people with a lot of free time as it is to people with a smaller amount of free time.

I got lucky with drops, but my fresh orc warrior now has almost every tank item from Kara in about 3-4 runs, in addition to the ilvl 141 badge chest for tanking. It took my gnome warrior months to reach that level of tank gear, and he still only had the Nightbane chest, not a T6-equivalent chest.

 

Malakitoo

I don't understand why people refuse to gear up through the badge system in favor of grinding bgs. Are pugs just that bad/hard to find? Is it that people's alts don't have guilds to take them through kara? Is the badge stuff actually worse than s2?

I'll be the first to say that the battleground system is broken and should have been allowed to die years ago. It's a stupid, stupid grind. That said, I want to tear my hair out just from doing 75k honor on my fully geared shaman, I can't imagine how obnoxious grinding 200k out on a green shadowpriest must be. You all can say "it's easy, you can lose your way through", and you can, but man does it suck.

Also, if I wanted to RP a female elf I'd do it offline where nobody could call me on it, and then I wouldn't even have to make angry posts about loot! If I wanted to actually compete against other players, I'd play WoW.

 

Calixtus

Well, the level of gear attainable from badge doing the easiest available badge awarded content is really a different discussion altogheter, though some interviews indicate Blizzard has already seen the folly of that concept and we will most likely see tiered badges in WotlK to avoid that kind of situation. But there's still at least one important difference that can be touched upon based on your example:

The T6 geared paladin and the T6 geared healer chose to be there, with you. If they had gotten a full T6 group and cleared it as fast as possible, using the badges to buy gems and then selling them, they'd have aquired larger rewards in a shorter timeframe than having one - or more - members barely carrying their own weight. If a sufficiently large amount of those members are unable to carry their own weight (that'd be an euphemism for "failing miserably"), even with that kind of setup you might very well fail to kill something - moving during flame wreath being the first example that springs to mind - in which you will not recieve your badges, until you actually do. Success might be easy to attain, but success is nevertheless a requirement for the reward.

The people who enter into Kara with you are there voluntarily, and any loss in speed/performance as a result of there presence is something they'll bear willingly. Battlegrounds do not function that way post-premade nerf. If you in Kara, as a result of your inadequacies in spec, ability or appropriate gear fail, you will not be rewarded. Battlegrounds do not function in this manner either; You will be rewarded for unsuccesful gameplay. Badge grinding, regardless of how easy, demands success. It demands effort if you are to be rewarded. Battleground PvP does not.


If you separate PvP and PvE gear to a point where cross over becomes meaningless, you can allow a much greater degree of free catch up in PvP, based on the needs of PvP progression, while you could do the corresponding thing for PvE progression - where, in my personal opinion, catch up is much less of a factor because of stuff like assisting alts, bringing alts to farm runs, and the simple fact where you are in relation to where everyone else is just isn't as important in a PvE environment as it is in PvP.

 

malthrin

Reminder: this thread is about Season 4.

 

Rieux

Looks like the spell haste weapons didn't make it live. Non-priest mana users everywhere rejoiced.

 

Sydane

I would expect them to get put in the game with 2.4.3, as that is when the weapon swap nerf goes live.

 

• frmorrison

This. You can still item swap on the Live game, but not on the PTR. Adding the haste weapons without the item swap fix is too powerful, but sadly nerfs Holy Paladins. It is the lesser of two evils .


There is a Season 4 vendor in Shattrah.

 

Lanlaorn

You can still weapon switch on instant casts though, and that's the vast majority of what you cast a Priest in PvP.

I'm definitely going to macro a weapon swap with PI for example and maybe Psychic Scream as well (since many of my screams are to seperate a mana user from their pillar).

With intelligent macros, and a few redundant ones for when you don't want to weapon swap, I'm certain the spell haste weapon can still be used effectively by Priests for dispel and mana burn.

 

ildon

No, they're not on the PTR either. I think they were just scrapped.

 

• Amera

This is such a strawman argument. WoW is not CS. Arenas are nothing like deathmatch in a first-person shooter. It is an entirely different form of PvP based on team tactics, skill, gear, and character classes. It is unique in the gaming world. WoW PvP has become competitive because a lot of people enjoy this change of pace from the standard FPS-type of game. Just because it doesn't fit your definition of an RPG doesn't mean it isn't good for the game.

On topic with the season 4 changes, the personal rating seems to be just what you want. There is finally character progression in PvP, albeit pretty trivial for good players.

I'm curious to see how this develops and if it has an impact on the metagame at all. It's also sort of odd that the game continues to evolve past what is available on the Tournament Realm, almost making a complete separation between the two.

Amerah, Selaste <Serious Casual>

 

Prinsesa

Easily gearing up fresh/undergeared characters FOR PVE should come from backfarming (relatively) easy PvE content.

I have no problems with a Rogue's ability to buy Vindicator's Leather Bracers as an upgrade to his Of the Bandit greens after spending a whole day in AV if he's doing it to put up a better fight in the Arena, but I do take issue if it's ONLY to get a person's DPS to an acceptable level for a Kara/ZA/whatever-raid-you-need run.

Again, the "PvP as a source of PvE gear" question is being sidestepped. Yes, it sucks to have to gear your Shaman alt because you need more Chain Heal for your Felmyst attempts, but it seems to me a PvE problem should have a PvE solution: Blow through Kara/ZA in 2 hours and give everything to the Shaman, hit up the heroics, get the badges, get the loot ... or recruit a new Shaman.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....63815BffMm.png

 

Altirias

I aggree on that. Maybe there should be some sort of progression on pvp items, as well as in PVE, in a way that you couldn't get s3 off set without first getting season 2 (and you would buy season 3 with season 2 + a little extra honour and marks, but not the actual full price of season 3)

 

Raised

To get this thread BACK on topic about s4, and not about PvE vs. PvP gearing-up...

Huge bit of anecdotal evidence here from the worst Battlegroup in the world, but from the teams I played today in 2s and 3s, it would seem that Blizz might have nailed the balance and ratings pretty well.

What I was seeing were questionable and downright bad comps in mostly s3 gear around the 1500s and 1600s (specifically in 2s). This gives the "PvP is welfare epics" complainers their bone, as you really need to gear up to a minimum of 5 or so pieces of Vindicators/Vengeful along with the rest s2 in order to compete, while giving the "1600 is HARD!" people who threatened to quit Arenas a good challenge to go against, but by no means having to wade through full s4 to get theirs.

Blast away.

 

Tacitus

Team tactics? Check
Skill? Check
Gear? Check (granted, only Pyro and Medic have alternative gear setups at the moment, but the rest are coming)
Classes? Check.

WoW is a great game but not an unique snowflake.

E: sorry about the derail, do continue about S4

Brotherhood, Peace, Unity

Welcome back, Comrade

 

DdarkDdemon

I don't PvP a lot, however I thought I'd give my opinion about this change.
My humblest excusses if these points have already been raised.

The change is good, it makes gear upgrading progressive like PvE is.
Keeps the brain-dead idiots from getting top-noch gear. (and I speak out of experience, a friend of mine is a retribution paladin who doesn't even know what a macro is, nor does he know what cleanse is yet, he has 4 pieces of vengeful with his 1400 rating teams).

However, the static rating requirements are unfair.
It would be fair if every class/race would have the same chance of getting that item.
For example a troll enhancement shaman has less viable set-ups and more weaknesses than your random Healer+Tauren/orc/gnome/undead Warrior team.
Which also has multiple setups which complement eachother.

Situations with different classes/setups can be totally different, sometimes there is a to low learning curve with the class as well (mostly these classes are classes who have little tools for their task in the arena).

Another point is, that getting in a arena team with higher than 1500 rating while you have 1500 personal rating makes it tremendously hard to get to the same personal rating as your arenateammate while putting the same or even more effort into winning than your other teammates.

The arena rating on Honour items can be interesting, however I question blizzards reasoning on giving some pieces rating requirements and some other not.
For example, giving belt no rating requirements but do give Bracers a very high rating req.

All in all the PvP mechine begins to get more alt and new players unfriendly, which is should because this is an rpg which is all about gear upgrades.
Blizzard has noticed that the game consists of a large ''karazhan/BG'' playerbase and wishes to make the game more friendly towards those people, which is the reason why they are bringing out another expension.

My first point, has shamefully to do with game balance, which can almost not be attained.
At any rate, blizzard might think that making a full gear reset by adding 10 more levels is the thing to do, in fact by adding more talents and more spells (And classes) they are making the job worse and worse for themselves.
I AM looking forward to WotLK, let's not be mistaken about that, however I fear that the expension won't live upto my expectation.

 

Altirias

Oh my god I didn't realised of how devastating a chaman + disc priest team would be with such weapons Oo

I'm glad to see that season 3 items on slots that require arena rating to buy season 4 off sets items are still in the game
(and with a discount Yipeeee)

My little gnome warlock is definitely bursting into a machiavelic laugh

 

Oneiros

1) While personally I won't have a problem getting the rating necessary for the arena items, I know some classes/specs will. I'd much prefer (like someone earlier mentioned) some sort of scaling rating requirement based on your class (you could even go as far as spec since a feral druid would be much harder to win with than a resto druid although I don't know how you'd monitor spec). As a warrior, I won't have trouble finding teams or getting high ratings at any level. Other classes/specs have to work much harder or get a lot more lucky... or just resolve that they're never going to hit that high because they aren't as powerful (in PvP) relative to other classes. Something like the old honor system where based on the number of players on your server, X amount of people could get each rank each week would be a lot more fair.

2) I'm not really familiar with how the new mechanics will stop people from powerleveling and selling teams. It doesn't really seem like it will be that much more difficult, it just looks like it will take a little bit longer since you have to power level their PR instead of a team rating. If I've missed it I'm sorry and please ignore, but I'm sure someone here is/was a very efficient team seller and I'd love to hear if the "new" system will actually affect serious team sellers.

3) They've already said that in the expansion they are upping the reward level for PvE vs PvP, so hopefully they correct what some people perceive as imbalance. No point in arguing about it here since its obvious they've decided this is what they want to do because this is what puts more money in the bank (never forget that they don't care about anything but the bottom line).

I believe in Harvey Dent.

 

Melkortopia

My primary concern is more about new players, really.

I've been trying to gear up my hunter in Arenas/PvP and it's -really- slow going. First of all, it's all the same content the entire time. That may work for Team Fortress Two or Counter Strike, where it's actually enjoyable to play the same map over and over again, but it doesn't work as well in the World of Warcraft. Second of all, it really sucks to constantly lose over and over again (in both arenas and around BG objectives) simply because they're in way better gear.

So basically, you're doing the same content over and over again and you're losing over and over again.

There's some consolation, at least, in Alterac Valley, where it's really easy for me (as a hunter) to top or get close to topping the Damage Meters. There is some fun there. But other than that, it just gets harder and harder to break into the PvP scene with every new season.

Of course, Wrath of the Lich King will reset all of that, but it may be something they keep an eye out for.