Season 4 PvP Changes - Page 5

• Playered · 04/22/08, 8:14 PM

The complaints just stem from the fact the system is changing now in the 4th season where things have been set in motion already for 2-3 seasons past.

S4 items will be more like Arena gear should've been from the start - low skilled players who never enter arena seriously or cannot get 1700 rating do not deserve the gear of the currently highest level, period.
Catch-up from the bunking down of seasons will work like the Badge gear being available from a PvE context.

The blunt fact is people who just idle around in BGs do not need S4 level items to do so, they are hardly going to be majorly outgeared when you consider only the elite of PvP will have the S4 gear anyway in any major amount that matters - of which they will never meet anyway.

To those who complain about PR for Honor gear - remember the groups are PvE and PvP, Arena and BGs are part of the same system not seperate entities.
If you still insist on complaining then remember your loot is completly controllable, you have no randomness involved which automatically offsets anything you can cry about from it.

Im glad they are finally doing something about the team changes, but as my BG is rather crap (4 mediocre servers only) im going to feel sorry for the cream of the PvP crop here when it comes to getting high rating in any major sence.
These changes are not something we can just math out and predict the outcome as they have larger implications which we cant really estimate well.

Who knows it may well be that we will see only the skilled PvPers with the "Brutal Gladiator's Apolyon" instead of the assorted time=reward players who tended to have the majority of top level gear in the previous seasons (which will ofset my qualms about the PvP system as it stands currently mostly).

Endoscient · 04/22/08, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

This line of thinking is why the republicans do well in impoverished areas and frankly baffles me. Why are you excited about changes that will limit your personal ability to improve your toon?

[This is based on the assumption that your arena ratings are accurate.]

Personally, I could care less about these changes but I still think back to S1 and have the feeling that rating requirements were the cause of all of the arena issues. Before rating mattered for anything other than titles, you didnt run into steamroller teams in the 1500s.

It has nothing to do with personal ratings that season 1 didn't have those issues. Everyone was new to the system in season 1 and didn't know how to exploit it. Point selling didn't exist like it does now, if people thought of it earlier it would have been just as much of a problem.

I am ecstatic about this change, it will make people on the lower side of spectrum actually try to compete to get the gear. Instead of farming money for each week and getting close to full vengeful. Currently most people are in the category of never getting to 1850, so they don't even care about there rating too much. There isn't much difference now between having a 1650 team or a 1700 team except completing your gear a week or two earlier.

McTurok · 04/22/08, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by sordee

Actually this is a major flaw in the system and here is a way to game it.

Example: Take a team with 5 Decently geared people, and two (P4 and P5) of them have S4 weapons already.

1)Team is now sitting at 2000 rating. Thus All 5 players have TR/PR of 2000.

2) P4 and P5 leave the team, and then rejoin the team. Now having PR of 1500.

3) New averaged PR team is now sitting at 1800. Now play as many games as you are only facing competition in the much lower bracket. True, you will only get 8-10 pts. But they will be much easier to win. (No more brick wall against high rated teams)

4) After a few more games, you may now be at 2040 for TR/PR of P1,P2 and P3. Since still short 2050, repeat steps 2 and 3.

You can do this with 3 people for more effect/more games to play.

Isn't this why there is a 150 difference check in place? Also, didn't Blizzard put a new matching system in place last patch to check for the higher personal rating when match up teams if one player was much much higher then the team raiding? So I'm guessing those players that left would still have a higher personal rating then 1500 and be matched up against teams with a 2000 rating. Right?

Bogeywoman · 04/22/08, 8:33 PM

One thing this change will do is cause the ladder itself to become more static -- as the higher-ranked teams will definitely have better gear than you, beating them will be that much harder. As soon as the rating reset happens, people interested in being near the top had better start pvping their brains out, lest they get caught behind the T4 curve.

heel · 04/22/08, 8:42 PM

My suspicion is that these changes will substantially decrease interest in both arenas and battlegrounds. Why would the designers implement a change that will reduce interest in their game? Very strange.

Particularly confusing are the rating requirements on the honor rewards. Battlegrounds are already an uninteresting grind, and the primary "customers" of battlegrounds are people who are incapable of even breaking 1500 (half of the playerbase would fit into this category in a fair rating system, which seems to be what they're striving for). A more humane solution might be to give discounts for higher rating, rather than completely excluding the people on the bottom.

I should note that I am a gladiator, so this isn't coming from the perspective of someone who's concerned about losing their free epics. It's coming from someone who is concerned about the degeneration of the pvp system. Any competitive gamer can tell you that no game of skill functions at the top without a gigantic, thoroughly mediocre playerbase holding it up at the bottom.

Ishamaell · 04/22/08, 8:45 PM

I, for one, applaud this move of Blizzard. It really irks me when I inspect someone, see them wearing 4/5 S3 while only sporting a team rating of about 1560 or so. Gear shouldn't come that easy to ANYONE.

Inoko · 04/22/08, 9:02 PM

Originally Posted by heel

My suspicion is that these changes will substantially decrease interest in both arenas and battlegrounds. Why would the designers implement a change that will reduce interest in their game? Very strange.

Quite likely because they completely disagree with you and consider this a good way to get people who were previously just AFKing in BGs and losing 10 games a week to get out and actually compete in the arenas.

I agree, and while I don't think it will change the top end too much, I think the lower brackets will be a lot more competitive and fun.

noth · 04/22/08, 9:04 PM

I'm just excited (as a 1500 pt scrub) that I'll be running up against less folks in full S3 @ 1450 ratings, and more folks like me, who either suck, or are new to the arenas and undergeared, or whatever. The idea is that you climb the ladder as your gear improves, but that never happens if all you play is ridiculously highly placed folks.

• sordee · 04/22/08, 9:07 PM

Originally Posted by McTurok

Isn't this why there is a 150 difference check in place? Also, didn't Blizzard put a new matching system in place last patch to check for the higher personal rating when match up teams if one player was much much higher then the team raiding? So I'm guessing those players that left would still have a higher personal rating then 1500 and be matched up against teams with a 2000 rating. Right?

First, when a player leaves/join a team, his PR will get reset for that bracket.

Second, by the phrasing of this new change, if the average PR of the team is lower by 150 than the current TR, it will negate the "match to the highest PR" system that was enacted in the last change.

So its all about making sure the average rating is at least 150 lower than the current TR. Then you get easier 8-10 pt win games.

Meddler · 04/22/08, 9:12 PM

Looking at those required rankings for a lot of the gear I'm inclined to agree that the intent is to get people engaging a bit more with trying to progress in arenas, rather than just playing 10 for the points and resetting the team if it drops too low. The rewards are spaced to give a progression path for those keen to work their way into arenas:

First step, hit 1550 to get access to the legs. Provided there's a large enough pool of average players in the 1500 ish bracket this should only take a run of a few games to be achievable. It's an accessible goal that most people should have a shot at, particularly since they don't need to hold the rating, just hit it briefly.

After that the progression's pretty simple - couple more wins will offer you the bracers and a bit more improvement beyond that the chest. The difference between 1500 and 1600 in that regard suddenly becomes extremely significant rather than just a matter of a few more points, offering the casual PVPer a series of distinct goals. All well and good in theory and something I appreciate as a fairly casual PVPer myself. The concern however, as others have raised, is that it does rather feel like these ratings have been put together assuming those values are as easy to achieve as they are now. Should arena interest drop instead of rise, with those dropping out being the less capable players, what was an accessible and straightforward progression and incentive to improve play suddenly becomes a far more significant gear block. Certainly the S3 gear's hardly terrible but the incentive of new gear actually being achievable, even if it's not that much better or quick to get, is a pretty big part MMO activites.

• Calantus · 04/22/08, 9:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bula

They make it easy to get the gear and blizzard is ridiculed.

They make it hard to get the gear and blizzard is ridiculed.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't?

He's not complaining about effort or difficult. He's complaining about having to play a different system in order to qualify for items paid for by points earned in another. There ARE people who never want to arena, just like there are people who don't like BGs and people who don't want to raid. If Blizzard wants to make BG rewards harder to get they should make the, harder to get within the BG system, not rachet in a requirement from a seperate system.

Fiola · 04/22/08, 9:24 PM

Originally Posted by Calantus

He's not complaining about effort or difficult. He's complaining about having to play a different system in order to qualify for items paid for by points earned in another. There ARE people who never want to arena, just like there are people who don't like BGs and people who don't want to raid. If Blizzard wants to make BG rewards harder to get they should make the, harder to get within the BG system, not rachet in a requirement from a seperate system.

But there is new gear available through BGs alone - S2. Right now, you're capped at S1 armor/weapon + S3 non-set items.

Next season, you get S2 armor/weapons + S3 non-set items. Some of the S4 non-set items (belt, neck, rings) do not have a rating requirement, either. So there are still significant upgrades available to pure BGers.

• Calantus · 04/22/08, 9:40 PM

Personally I'd rather they move the current season to arena completely and put all of the gear from 2 seasons ago onto the BG system without any arena requirements. Requiring both arena and honor for certain items is annoying for both people who hate BGs and people who hate arena.

Inoko · 04/22/08, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by Calantus

Personally I'd rather they move the current season to arena completely and put all of the gear from 2 seasons ago onto the BG system without any arena requirements. Requiring both arena and honor for certain items is annoying for both people who hate BGs and people who hate arena.

I agree with this, but I still consider the current set up to be a step in the right direction. A huge step in the right direction, and a promise of good things for 2.4.

Obviously there are tons of flaws that are readily apparent and probably as many that aren't, but I think the ideology behind this change is solid.

Grunge · 04/22/08, 9:53 PM

Originally Posted by Meddler

Looking at those required rankings for a lot of the gear I'm inclined to agree that the intent is to get people engaging a bit more with trying to progress in arenas, rather than just playing 10 for the points and resetting the team if it drops too low. The rewards are spaced to give a progression path for those keen to work their way into arenas:

First step, hit 1550 to get access to the legs. Provided there's a large enough pool of average players in the 1500 ish bracket this should only take a run of a few games to be achievable. It's an accessible goal that most people should have a shot at, particularly since they don't need to hold the rating, just hit it briefly.

After that the progression's pretty simple - couple more wins will offer you the bracers and a bit more improvement beyond that the chest. The difference between 1500 and 1600 in that regard suddenly becomes extremely significant rather than just a matter of a few more points, offering the casual PVPer a series of distinct goals. All well and good in theory and something I appreciate as a fairly casual PVPer myself. The concern however, as others have raised, is that it does rather feel like these ratings have been put together assuming those values are as easy to achieve as they are now. Should arena interest drop instead of rise, with those dropping out being the less capable players, what was an accessible and straightforward progression and incentive to improve play suddenly becomes a far more significant gear block. Certainly the S3 gear's hardly terrible but the incentive of new gear actually being achievable, even if it's not that much better or quick to get, is a pretty big part MMO activites.

I think the ratings on Pants, Chest, Helm are quite good and provide a goal for casual pvp'ers and such,
however I dislike their idea to put weapons and shoulders at 2050 and 2200, right at the start of the season.
Reaching 2.2k at the moment isn't that hard, the ratings have inflated enough and top teams are at 2.4-2.5k.

Getting to 2.05k on the first week is however quite a daunting task, hell getting to 1850 was quite hard for many on the first week of s3.
Imo they should have made it scale from weapons @ 1850-1900 on the first week, then going up by 50pts every week? Or something in that line. I guess that would've been somewhat hard to implement.

Overall I have mixed feelings about this, on one hand it's good that they curb pointselling (which I must say I've done my fair share), but they aren't really stoping boosting which while a bit annoying and harder to do, is also quite a bit more lucrative.
Especially since it's demand will go up for this service.

Talgog · 04/22/08, 9:54 PM

Being denied cutting edge PvP bracers, boots and rings isn't going to kill anyone who would be unable or uninterested in getting them anyway. If they were removing S3 offsets or requiring rating on them too, that would be a different story, but they aren't.

• sadris · 04/22/08, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by heel

My suspicion is that these changes will substantially decrease interest in both arenas and battlegrounds. Why would the designers implement a change that will reduce interest in their game? Very strange.

Particularly confusing are the rating requirements on the honor rewards. Battlegrounds are already an uninteresting grind, and the primary "customers" of battlegrounds are people who are incapable of even breaking 1500 (half of the playerbase would fit into this category in a fair rating system, which seems to be what they're striving for). A more humane solution might be to give discounts for higher rating, rather than completely excluding the people on the bottom.

Best idea ever.

In general I suspect these changes will greatly increase the price of buying points as now sellers are forced to get the buyer's account info, setup a UI, change buttons, etc. If Blizzard really wants to stop the practice of selling points then they just need to make it against the TOS.

Bunnyz · 04/22/08, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Calantus

He's complaining about having to play a different system in order to qualify for items paid for by points earned in another. There ARE people who never want to arena, just like there are people who don't like BGs and people who don't want to raid. If Blizzard wants to make BG rewards harder to get they should make the, harder to get within the BG system, not rachet in a requirement from a seperate system.

Um, if you look at season 3 and 4, you will see a lot of people (myself include) have to do BG to get our weapons / shoulders / a lot of pieces in s4 (except people who bought their ratings, I hope blizzard would do something to prevent this). My friend once asked me why did I have to play in BG while I don't like it, I told him if Blizzard allows me to buy BG rewards with arena points I would never step in a BG again unless with friends premade and I'm sure many people would have the same thought with me. Why don't people complain when arena players had to do BG to success in arena for 3 seasons already and now they complain when they have to do arena to get BG rewards? It's not like 1700 rating is a hard-to-get margin.
Items should reflect the effort you put in to get it. At current state, they failed to do so as everyone, sooner or later, can get all of BG rewards. If Blizzard wants to make BG rewards harder to get while not using another system, the only way I can think of is to bring back ranking system, which more people will cry about. That's why I said in my opinion, this is the best thing Blizzard could do.

And for people who is worrying about the gear to start with, I think we can be sure that there are always s2 and season 3 gears - which won't be much weaker (speaks from experience of a priest, although I know melee s3 gears got a big buff with ArP).

Originally Posted by sadris

In general I suspect these changes will greatly increase the price of buying points as now sellers are forced to get the buyer's account info, setup a UI, change buttons, etc. If Blizzard really wants to stop the practice of selling points then they just need to make it against the TOS.

Don't you think Blizzard already did what in bold? I meant, sharing account is technically against the TOS =)

Originally Posted by grunge

Reaching 2.2k at the moment isn't that hard, the ratings have inflated enough and top teams are at 2.4-2.5k.

Are you sure? =P While I like the changes, I wouldn't say reaching 2k2 at the moment is easy. At the moment, number of teams with 2k2 ratings is actually much smaller than number of gladiator teams.

• sadris · 04/22/08, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bunnyz

Don't you think Blizzard already did what in bold? I meant, sharing account is technically against the TOS =)

It is against the TOS on the buyer's part. The seller doesn't care if that account gets shut down.

Grunge · 04/22/08, 10:11 PM

Are you sure? =P While I like the changes, I wouldn't say reaching 2k2 at the moment is easy. At the moment, number of teams with 2k2 ratings is actually much smaller than number of gladiator teams.[/quote]

Well what I mean is that, the general level of "playing skill" at the moment around 2.2k is the same as 2k in the start of s3. Or at least that's how it feels to me whenever I play.

Davidson · 04/22/08, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bunnyz

Don't you think Blizzard already did what in bold? I meant, sharing account is technically against the TOS =)

How is point selling against the TOS in any way at the moment? There is no account sharing in your traditional point selling.

x1tiger1x · 04/22/08, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Bunnyz

Are you sure? =P While I like the changes, I wouldn't say reaching 2k2 at the moment is easy. At the moment, number of teams with 2k2 ratings is actually much smaller than number of gladiator teams.

I think he is comparing it in reference to the beginning of a season and the end of a season. Getting 2k mid-season is a LOT easier than getting 2k during the first week of a season. Particularly due in part to the rating reset and the amount of competitive teams that are starting off.

Personally, I am surprised they kept the 2050 and 2200 rating requirement.

panny · 04/22/08, 10:25 PM

I don't mind the new rating requirements (though 2.2k is incredibly high), but the new PR system is convoluted and still exploitable. They should be tackling win-trading before point-selling imo. I