Season 4 PvP Changes - Page 7

Jarlyn · 04/23/08, 5:06 AM

I'm in general agreement that I've yet to see a reason why these changes are a bad thing.

I think it can be summarized with a PvE vs PvP analogy:

PvP loot, with the exception of S3 weps/shoulders has been "welfare" for a reason: even for players who were generally incompetent, gear could still be obtained, even at a slow pace. You started with Season 1, then Season 2 hit and you started over, and the progress repeated itself with Season 3. You always got gear, and looking at the playerbase as a whole it's been irrespective of skill, because the only determining factor was time involved.

Compare that to PvE. There's still plenty of guilds out there working through T5 content, and when BT/Hyjal opened up they didn't start instantly accruing gear from T6. Likewise to the present day, there's still plenty of guilds in T6, just because Sunwell is open doesn't mean they're going to start magically obtaining gear from Sunwell. You have to work for it.

So moving back to PvP, here and I'm certain on the WoW forums, there will be people complaining about the rating requirements. Just because new stuff is available doesn't mean you should be instantly entitled to start receiving it. Say you swapped all your S3 stuff for T6, do you think you should be able to sleepwalk around Sunwell and pick up Sunwell upgrades? You have to work for PvE upgrades, I don't see any reason why the highest end PvP gear shouldn't involve more than afking through BG holidays and dancing naked in 10 arena games a week.

Xavias · 04/23/08, 5:32 AM

Originally Posted by Anthraxx

I don't see the logic behind making arena gear more and more restricted for "good" players and pve content more and more trivialized by consecutive nerfs.

Pve for the masses, pvp for the chosen? ; /

The differences between end-game PvE representation and Arena accessibility is no where near comparable at this stage.

End-game PvE is far from "for the masses" at this point, despite attunements being lifted and so-called nerfs.

I would be surprised if more than 5% of the WoW population have killed a boss in BT.

Angeron · 04/23/08, 5:32 AM

Originally Posted by frber

If they want to make the Arena system into a ladder where you have to improve they should make sure that once you progressed (i.e. reached a certain rating and got new gear) you should move on and not play against the same players anymore.

Don't really mind the ratings that much though. Whats a bit more troublesome for me is that I kind of like how easy it is to get decent epics in the expansion. Kind of enjoy having good enough stuff to not have to bother much with getting upgrades (for PvE at least) and beeing able to play the content I feel like with little need to look at where the upgrades are. Have been hoping that the next expansion makes it even easier; and makes gear even less of an issue.

I kind of see this as Blizzard wanting to shut down the 'free epics' thing and once again restrict good gear for raid players or really good PvP'ers. Thats a direction I am not interested in at all. As I really don't want to ever get sucked into raiding again its probably time to get away of the game finnally. Which is a shame since large parts of it is still good fun.

I think that blizzard does NOT want to move away from 'free epics', they simply want to change the way in which they're acquired. I.E. Majority of "free epics' currently come from badge gear/honor gear/arena gear. In S4, this won't change at all. What WILL change is that the 'best of the best free epics' are suddenly no longer free. It will require more effort on the part of those aiming to purchase them to actually 'earn' them. Like a raider who dies over and over to illidan beams or can never seem to avoid void zones, people who can't break 1500 will not have the option of getting free loot that is the best possible loot for that specific game category (pvp or pve). This is not a bad thing in any way, shape, or form. This is less of a stratification of loot catering to elite pvpers and more of a nudge for people who are terrible at pvp to either do it just for fun and pick up their 'free epics' from the badge vendor, or to quit it entirely, and pick up their free epics from the badge vendor. There are a lot of self-professed terrible-pvpers in this thread who have so far expressed tremendous relief at not being required to grind points for the weapons because now the weapons are in a totally different category of achievability. This is good. Additionally, the changes fix pointselling and the use of win-trading to quickly power level peoples ratings. This is also good.

The free epics will remain, they will just be confined to badges, s4 gloves, and a few pieces of the honor gear.

Emth. · 04/23/08, 6:51 AM

My only problem with this (more towards the honour pieces) is that it's already hard enough to break into arena as a new 70, even with full season 1 and all the honour gear available. 1600 rating doesn't seem much, but when you're going to be up against people in full S4 honour gear and a mixture of S3 and S4 whilst in S2 and blues, it's a massive hurdle to overcome.

Even my newish rogue in 2x S3, and all the vindicators honour gear is still 200ap, 2-3% crit and 10(x2) weapon dps behind S3 geared people (which is basically 1700+). The curve to get into the real arena action is now going to be even more brutal.

sarf · 04/23/08, 7:21 AM

I guess we'll have to see if S4 represents any big change in the behaviours of "never-gonna-reach-1550" players. I do hope that they'll quit, as that will force Blizzard to actually make ratings be based on something more stable than an inflationary points system.

While having systems that are based on how many people join and loose in order to achieve some sort of arbitrary points limit in order to achieve the highest gear seems mildly strange, it's not that much different from having World Championship with countries such as Sweden having the same amount of people representing them as Russia, I guess.

S2 being available for honor is a good thing, if true, as I'll grind a bit of that for my alts and then I can just skip S3/S4 (with my Warlock alt, I don't get that much of a benefit out of +armor in PvE, which is why I won't go for S3+ gear).

I do find it odd to have an esport which is heavily gear dependent with the gear only being allowed to come from playing the game - if Blizzard really wanted to go fully esport-y, I guess you'd be choosing a talent / gear template instead of just appearing as your character is currently specced.
Then again, I guess it's not an esport until you go to the tournament server - but aren't people are chosen based for the tournaments on the non-equal other thing?
OK, it's not that much different from college basketball players getting chosen for pro teams I suppose...

Personally, I can't work up the gumption to get together my 5v5 team in order to loose 10 games per week any more - I've gotten my S3 chest so I'm good now. We did have some good times (our Theme Music was awesome), but loosing was always intensely frustrating.

McTurok · 04/23/08, 7:24 AM

Originally Posted by Traj

What makes you think the ppl that aren't putting any effort into PvP now are going to suddenly start trying? They are far more likely to try in the beginning, not go anywhere and quit because there is nothing to spend points on. Their track record supports them quiting the arena system, it doesn't support them manning up. A large number of teams cannot even achieve 1700 rating for a variety of reasons but they keep playing right now because there are still things to buy with their points. Why would they keep playing in s4? Because their competitive juices start flowing? Doubtful, remember, these are the same people who blame gear and powering teams for their low rating, which are both BS reasons. They aren't good and are weak minded, they will quit playing.

The elitist side of me likes some of the changes like shoulders, weapons, and helms being higher rating. I think honor gear being tied to arena is silly. I completely despise the changes attempting to stop point selling because it means I am stuck on one team, I can't play with friends, or try multiple setups without putting in way too much work.

I won't be surprised when Blizzard tweaks this system due to the vast number of complaints and ppl quiting the arena system in droves whether that be before or after s4 starts. A good place to start is having each team save your PR rating so even if you leave with a 2100 PR for a 1500 PR, when you rejoin the team your PR jumps back to 2100. Or perhaps they should finally deem the charter system a complete and utter failure and move teams to the Arranged Team setup of War3.

edit: To all the people that keep saying certain ratings are very easy to attain, please stop, that notion is foolish. Yes, for several of us here achieving even 2k is a joke and can be done from 1500 in 3 hours or less. However, a large number of people who also play this game, whether you want to recognize it or not, struggle to even get 1700.

These players that "struggle to even get 1700" are most likely the same players that struggle in Kz and/or SSC. So do you really think they deserve S4 gear (which is compared to Sunwell loot)? I don't think so. They get S2 and S3.

Remember the honor items being tided to arena is done for a reason. It's very VERY comparable to loot from Sunwell too. Do you honestly think they should be basically handed out for free? Sure you might try hard every time in a BG to win but there are half a dozen who just run around doing nothing at all.

There has to be a new way to "check" the players wanting those new items to make sure they deserve them. I'm hoping for a WSG and/or AB rated system soon, so those BG items won't be tied to arena but to a BG rating.

As for your comment about playing with friends and leaving teams; there are three arena brackets you can play in, how can one person not find fun in playing with friends in two of the three and leaving one for his focus team is beyond me.

McTurok · 04/23/08, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by Grunge

It's not required automatically, it's just a step in the wrong direction imo. It doesn't really stop the current 2.2k rating player from not getting his shoulders. It stops him from getting them when he WANTS to get them.
Overall it doesn't matter to me, 2050 is a bit high, but it's not impossible on the first week. Guess I'll just have to farm more 5 or 10 point teams.

"WANTS"? What you want and what Blizzards thinks you should get are two different things. Blizzard doesn't allow you to pick what loot drops from a boss in PvE. He doesn't let you decide when to kill him (i.e. progression). Blizzard puts boundaries around high quality (or end-game) items for a reason. Just happens now they are doing it for arena PvP.

If they were smart enough to do this in S1 you wouldn't have an issue.

McTurok · 04/23/08, 8:00 AM

Originally Posted by Valerys

I am somewhat concerned for the "win 5 lose 5" teams like mine. We play casually and tend to hover around 1500 rating (unusually, this week we got above 1600 though due to some good playing). This system however means we will get no reward for our effort, unless they continue to remove most rating requirements from the "current season minus 1" gear, in which case we can at least equip ourselves for continued playing.

EDIT: And yes, as the poster above said, this does make it even harder for new people to enter arena play. Whereas previously they could at least gain arena gear slowly, now they cannot at all.

So I'm going to guess you are sitting in full Season 3 arena gear right now? Weapons too?

Do you think it's a valid argument that someone's team going 5-5 each week and/or only playing 10 games max should be able to all S4 gear but shoulders? If so why?

Kirium · 04/23/08, 8:17 AM

I've been trying to find it and maybe I just missed it, but when does Season 4 begin?

Havok · 04/23/08, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by McTurok

So I'm going to guess you are sitting in full Season 3 arena gear right now? Weapons too?

Do you think it's a valid argument that someone's team going 5-5 each week and/or only playing 10 games max should be able to all S4 gear but shoulders? If so why?

If it comes 4-5 months after you get yours?

I enjoy playing arenas (2s/3s) very casually and not simply to lose 10 for points. My concerns after all these changes is that it still does not seem to address the issues of fun matchups. Facing fully S3 geared folks at low levels is quite frustrating/discouraging.

I liked the idea of getting a gladiator set within arenas but that you have to earn the right to wear them outside.

Essarhaddon · 04/23/08, 8:40 AM

Originally Posted by McTurok

These players that "struggle to even get 1700" are most likely the same players that struggle in Kz and/or SSC. So do you really think they deserve S4 gear (which is compared to Sunwell loot)? I don't think so. They get S2 and S3.

Not really true. I am in a 5/5 Hyjal and 7/9 BT guild and struggled to get to 1700 before stopping PvP altogether as I find it dull.

Lezwyn · 04/23/08, 8:42 AM

Originally Posted by Havok

If it comes 4-5 months after you get yours?

I enjoy playing arenas (2s/3s) very casually and not simply to lose 10 for points. My concerns after all these changes is that it still does not seem to address the issues of fun matchups. Facing fully S3 geared folks at low levels is quite frustrating/discouraging.

I liked the idea of getting a gladiator set within arenas but that you have to earn the right to wear them outside.

I'm not sure, but I think that at this stage of the season even teams hovering around 1500 can get 4/5 S3 gear - not to mention every honor reward, so it's not unexpected. I think the problem is that many people who haven't seriously attempted PvP and don't have all of the honor gear - which does take an insanely long time to get to be honest, can't be competitive at all with their resilience/hp levels... the moved blue sets are a start, but I don't think they're quite powerful enough. Though, while preventing access to all the honor gear might seem to further increase this problem, I guess the positive aspects of it make it a worthwhile change still and the catching up problem can (should) be solved by other means.

I've been trying to find it and maybe I just missed it, but when does Season 4 begin?

It's not known yet, Blizzard said they would notify us a few weeks in advance though.

Does anyone think Blizzard will try to get class balance changes - perhaps based on their experiences with the tournament realm, before opening up a new season?

Taja · 04/23/08, 9:21 AM

Im just wondering if it wouldnt be better if you could not save up 5k arena points to next season. It still buys you gloves/wand/offhand first day, and probably legs week after right away, alsmost halfway to the gear.

McTurok · 04/23/08, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Havok

If it comes 4-5 months after you get yours?

I enjoy playing arenas (2s/3s) very casually and not simply to lose 10 for points. My concerns after all these changes is that it still does not seem to address the issues of fun matchups. Facing fully S3 geared folks at low levels is quite frustrating/discouraging.

I liked the idea of getting a gladiator set within arenas but that you have to earn the right to wear them outside.

In your previous post you talked about getting nothing for your effort. I looked up your armory and it shows you in two pieces of S3 gear, nothing else.

You'll certainly still be able to get something for your effort in S4 because you'll still be able to get the S3 pieces you still need.

Obviously, I don't know if a Pally wants a full set but I have to think you'd progress better in the arena rankings if you are your teammates (currently geared similar to you?) had full sets of S3 arena gear.

You also have to remember that those teams you are currently facing with full S3 right now most likely got that gear by buying the points or are just really bad. So if you and your teammates are any good you should pass them quite easily when you get the rest of the S3 gear be this season or next.

PS: S3 gear in S4 is for "casuals". So you shouldn't be complaining.

Kirium · 04/23/08, 9:29 AM

[quote=Lezwyn;721949]

It's not known yet, Blizzard said they would notify us a few weeks in advance though.

QUOTE]

thank you for the quick reply, I was thinking of doing the quick honor grind for my alt (Shammy) and figured to get the S1 pieces. It's a quick way to get good gear which will enable me to run with the rest of my guild on raids to get better gear. But since they announced S2 gear for honor, I'm trying to decide to wait.

McTurok · 04/23/08, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Essarhaddon

Not really true. I am in a 5/5 Hyjal and 7/9 BT guild and struggled to get to 1700 before stopping PvP altogether as I find it dull.

That's very understandable. Arena is not for everyone. I've seen players struggle in arena ratings for several months only to find another team where they gelled so well they have no problem competing in the top >2k rating.

If you want to compete, sometimes playing with IRL friends can hold you back in those 1700's.

Vernichter · 04/23/08, 9:35 AM

I have two objections with the changes:

1) Honor gear is not available with arena points, but it requires a team rating. Why not make it available for either honor or points?
2) By the time season 4 lands, casual Battlegrounds players will have had plenty of time to acquire season 3 gear. If they do not have the capability to earn the ratings for the season 4 pieces, then they will drop out of the system and both venues will suffer.

Adding ranking requirements to the honor gear would have made a lot more sense if the season were shorter such that casuals would still be working to acquire the points for the previous season's gear when a new season landed. With the current timetable a non-trivial portion of the BG-only population will have completed their season 3 off-set grinds and will have nothing to look forward to in season 4. While it is too late to solve that problem for TBC, it is definitely an issue that should be address in WotLK if Blizzard plans to pursue this new approach down the road.

sadistic · 04/23/08, 10:24 AM

What i was thinking was we make a thread where we present the issues with the current seasons arena play, and the issues with the current incarnation of the ses4 changes on ptr.

Gather up stuff like: High ranked/geared players playing in the lower brackets to boost a friend or due to teamselling

High geared/ranked players leaving and rejoining high ranked teams to get easy wins in lower brackets

etc

Then we can have a concise discussion about the problems, and our proposed solutions to them. the OP can then edit in the best of those so as to let Tigole and whoever else is here to get a concise view of what we think is the problem, and our solutions to those problems.

(For the last issue i brought up, have teams remember players, thus if you leave a 2200team, and rejoin, your personal rating reverts to what it was when you first were with that team for instance)

• Disquette · 04/23/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by McTurok

These players that "struggle to even get 1700" are most likely the same players that struggle in Kz and/or SSC. So do you really think they deserve S4 gear (which is compared to Sunwell loot)? I don't think so. They get S2 and S3.

I've killed Illidan with my guild, which now has the twins down. My top team rating ever was 1604, after a few weeks of 5v5 arenas. Yeah, I suck at arenas.

Remember the honor items being tided to arena is done for a reason. It's very VERY comparable to loot from Sunwell too. Do you honestly think they should be basically handed out for free? Sure you might try hard every time in a BG to win but there are half a dozen who just run around doing nothing at all.

This is a valid point, imo, and I don't know the answer to it. However, having recently gotten my rogue a S1 sword by getting 40 EOTS tokens (in 36 games, averaging 20 minutes each

), I feel like I put in my time.

Anyway, I think that if the game is going this way, they should probably at least be consistent and put honor and point requirements on the Arena items. As someone said earlier, it's all pvp, and therefore tied together.

The upshot of this for me is that I will no longer queue for battlegrounds. Because of my lack of interest/skill in arenas, I no longer see a need to do BGs for the S4 vindicators-analog that I would have otherwise probably tried to get. Yes, I could go for S3 vindicators, but I generally don't enjoy getting gear that isn't top of the line. I had to do my rogue's main hand because I was using [The Castigator] until upgrading to the S1 weapon.

Hopefully, for Blizzard's sake, more people will enter the arena/bg system due to these changes than avoid it due to being in a situation/mindset akin to my own.

• Playered · 04/23/08, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Vernichter

I have two objections with the changes:

1) Honor gear is not available with arena points, but it requires a team rating. Why not make it available for either honor or points?
2) By the time season 4 lands, casual Battlegrounds players will have had plenty of time to acquire season 3 gear. If they do not have the capability to earn the ratings for the season 4 pieces, then they will drop out of the system and both venues will suffer.

Adding ranking requirements to the honor gear would have made a lot more sense if the season were shorter such that casuals would still be working to acquire the points for the previous season's gear when a new season landed. With the current timetable a non-trivial portion of the BG-only population will have completed their season 3 off-set grinds and will have nothing to look forward to in season 4. While it is too late to solve that problem for TBC, it is definitely an issue that should be address in WotLK if Blizzard plans to pursue this new approach down the road.

The problem there is that from Blizzards mind people should go Full S1-> Full S2 -> Full S3 -> +
However this is far from the case because the difference in cost is so small in comparison to the extended time it would take to re-aquire the honor to get the next higher piece if you would do so.

For example no one will buy non maximum tier honor items because they (this example: boots) work like this:
S3 = 18k honor + 40 marks.
S2 = 14k honor + 40 marks.

When you have the amount to purchase S1 you have the 2 options (Blizzards, and Reality):

Reality: Grind an extra 4k honor (1~ week casually) and just buy S3. Total: +4k honor.
Blizzard: Buy S2, then farm another 18k/40 marks for S3. Total: +18k honor, +40 marks.

Also remember you need to socket and enchant additionally if you do Blizzards way than 'Reality'.

If they actually made them work more like this:
S3 = 18k honor +40 marks.
S2 = 9k honor + 10 marks.

Then maybe, maybe it would work like Blizzard intend for it, but well... yeah.

• sadris · 04/23/08, 11:03 AM

That is a really interesting point; having to regrind honor, multiple times on the same character... is terrible, especially when it has already been done on your main (even more so now that you can no longer preform BGs).

Akka · 04/23/08, 11:24 AM

Overall, I think it's a step in the right direction.
Still make a lot of PvP gear much easier than the PvE equivalent to obtain, and the progression feel of BC will sadly probably stay quite dead, but it make me a bit hopeful for WotLK.