Season 4 PvP Changes - Page 8

Cirocco · 04/23/08, 11:59 AM

After a think about this and a discussion with friends about what they're going to do I'm becoming more and more disillusioned with the direction Blizzard are taking. I didn't sign up to wow to play an e-sport, I signed up to continue playing
a MMRGPG. If I'd wanted to play an e-sport I'd have chosen a real one like counterstrike. If they continue to push arena as the b-all and and end-all of the game then it's something different from what most of us signed up for.

The arena rating on honour pieces is Blizzard's attempt to force people to play whoever's beautiful bouncing baby the Arena game is, (like the seinfeld episode, no matter how ugly the baby is none of their colleague's are going to tell the parent just how ugly the baby is).

They seem to believe the loaded gun of rating points on honour pieces are going to force people to take part in Arena's. I and others believe that it'll probably cause a non trivial number of people to stop competing in both.

Less players in arena's equal less points to go round, making the increase in rating needed to gain weapons and shoulder's a capricious and statistically unneeded change, some Battlegroup's may well find themselves in situations where no one at all can gain the needed points.

These rating changes, both to honour gear and to arena gear are going to hurt those throughout the ladder, including those at the top.

Vernichter · 04/23/08, 12:04 PM

Ah, Playered, I see what you mean. Your point assumes that the players in question skipped directly to season 3 without getting season 2 gear. Although that is certainly the case for many players, there were also a truckload of players who acquired season 2 during season 2 and then upgraded to season 3. After all, the seasons have been long enough that even relatively casual players could acquire the boots, belt, and bracers before the next tier arrived.

I guess all I want to argue is that in the most general case, having restrictions on tier X items is fine so long as players who can't meet those restrictions can still work toward tier X-1 items which are relatively competitive if inferior. However, that breaks down if said players have already acquired tier X-1 items during the previous season because they didn't have restrictions and the season lasted long enough that the point requirement was easily met. In other words, adding the requirements into the system after a few seasons is bad for players who can't meet the requirements but already have the gear from the tier below.

However, I will certainly agree with McTurok that the point is moot and the change is important and worthwhile. I certainly won't cry about it. I will argue that this should be implemented from the outset of WotLK instead of being added later in its lifecycle. Perhaps that is self-evident and need not be explicitly noted, but it seemed to be worth expressing.

Akka · 04/23/08, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Cirocco

After a think about this and a discussion with friends about what they're going to do I'm becoming more and more disillusioned with the direction Blizzard are taking. I didn't sign up to wow to play an e-sport, I signed up to continue playing
a MMRGPG. If I'd wanted to play an e-sport I'd have chosen a real one like counterstrike. If they continue to push arena as the b-all and and end-all of the game then it's something different from what most of us signed up for.

The arena rating on honour pieces is Blizzard's attempt to force people to play whoever's beautiful bouncing baby the Arena game is.

Actually, it may be some kind of the opposite.
By putting rating on arena gear, by putting some restriction, it's making this gear less available, and as such less of an "obligatory avenue" to grab said gear. It makes arena lress required, because it's not anymore so easy to get high-end items (though 1600 or less in rating is very easily obtained, as my profile can prove it despite me being far from being a PvP player).

Less players in arena's equal less points to go round, making the increase in rating needed to gain weapons and shoulder's a capricious and statistically unneeded change, some Battlegroup's may well find themselves in situations where no one at all can gain the needed points.

These rating changes, both to honour gear and to arena gear are going to hurt those throughout the ladder, including those at the top.

Well, to be honest, it was greatly needed. PvP gear was imbalanced compared to PvE gear. It will still be, as S3 is here to stay, but slowing down the increase in ilevel from PvP will help not destabilize the game too much further.

After all, the seasons have been long enough that even relatively casual players could acquire the boots, belt, and bracers before the next tier arrived.

And that's the point why it had to be done : even losing, even playing casually, anyone could gain in a season the top-end of the gear available in PvP.
Nobody really could kill Illidan in PvE by losing and playing casually.

Additionnally, puting rating on every piece of gear is a boon for what PvP is supposed to be (competition).

• Disquette · 04/23/08, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Akka

Additionnally, puting rating on every piece of gear is a boon for what PvP is supposed to be (competition).

And I'd argue that if competition is what PVP is about (which I agree with), then they should fix the BGs so that they're competitive in their own right.

If they've decided that BGs don't provide enough competition to have merit on their own, then they should be taken out of the game, not just act as some time filler to supplement arenas.

As for the "what is so bad about having to participate in arenas" questions, some people (myself included) really enjoy the fact that we can log in, play a game or two, log out on our own schedule and not worry about dicking over 4 other people in the process, and still get gear that way.

While it's mostly a separate topic, I hate the fact that one of the few solo* ways to gear up in WoW is now being largely neutered. The obligatory response of "MMO has MM in it" is fine if you contend that MMOs should only involve group play, but WoW has not been marketted to the people who solo to 70 and/or play BGs as their primary form of entertainment. It's Blizzard's decision that they apparently want the solo game henceforth to be 1 to 69 only (as far as gear progression goes, at least).

I apologize in advance for this derail, but I believe it to be Germain to the discussion regarding why some of us hate the arena points aspect of honor items, regardless how low the rating requirements are.

*Solo - I can do this on my own time regardless of which friends or guildies are online. I can still play to the best of my ability, and make a difference in outcome, but there is no scheduling or group-composition (LF2M - tank and heals!) aspect to this method of play

Siddown · 04/23/08, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Cirocco

After a think about this and a discussion with friends about what they're going to do I'm becoming more and more disillusioned with the direction Blizzard are taking. I didn't sign up to wow to play an e-sport, I signed up to continue playing
a MMRGPG. If I'd wanted to play an e-sport I'd have chosen a real one like counterstrike. If they continue to push arena as the b-all and and end-all of the game then it's something different from what most of us signed up for.

The arena rating on honour pieces is Blizzard's attempt to force people to play whoever's beautiful bouncing baby the Arena game is, (like the seinfeld episode, no matter how ugly the baby is none of their colleague's are going to tell the parent just how ugly the baby is).

They seem to believe the loaded gun of rating points on honour pieces are going to force people to take part in Arena's. I and others believe that it'll probably cause a non trivial number of people to stop competing in both.

Less players in arena's equal less points to go round, making the increase in rating needed to gain weapons and shoulder's a capricious and statistically unneeded change, some Battlegroup's may well find themselves in situations where no one at all can gain the needed points.

These rating changes, both to honour gear and to arena gear are going to hurt those throughout the ladder, including those at the top.

Don't you think that this is a tad of an over reaction? Let's say I start from scratch with an alt and during my grind to 70I also have been doing BGs, which means I start out at 70 with the best:

- PvP Trinket in the game
- PvP Necklace in the game
- PvP Belt in the game
- 2nd Best PvP Ring in the game for my "Off" ring slot.

I fill my Chest, Pants, Gloves, Shoulders and Helmet with the PvP Blues then make an a decision. Do I want to use filler blues for my Bracers and Boots, or do I want the Second Best piece available for those slot (S3 gear) which are near identical to S4 anyways.

Throw in a few weeks of going 5-5 in the Arena, and now I've also got the best OH, Wand and Gloves in the game. Add a few more weeks (okay, months) and I have the second best for every other slot in the game except Shoulders and Main Hand weapon, which I can grab with Badge Rewards (which are amazing), or can suck it on and "only" get S2 Shoulders and MH. Now, if the system works as intended and the Arena isn't flooded with 2000+ rated teams selling points, so the 1500 bracket is the "true" 1500 bracket, then getting to 1700 isn't all that hard, which means S4 Pants, Chest and Helmet are also now available to me. Not to mention, if I held off on getting the BG rewards, S4 of those are also now available to me.

We're not even talking serious effort here, just knowing your class and not being a key turner should get you the access to the best of every gear slot except Shoulders and Main Hand.

So again, don't you think people who are against this are slightly over reacting?

Maczor · 04/23/08, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Akka

Well, to be honest, it was greatly needed. PvP gear was imbalanced compared to PvE gear. It will still be, as S3 is here to stay, but slowing down the increase in ilevel from PvP will help not destabilize the game too much further.

I definatly agree here. This change should hopefully balance out the differences between PVP and PVE equivilants. For example our guild has only 4 T6 level healing maces (4 Kazrogal maces), zero from Vashj and zero from Illidan. On the other hand we have probably a dozen S3 healing maces (between alts & mains) and even more people that had/have the S2 Healing mace.

I'm actually hoping that less people play Arena, making it so there are less points to go around, making the weapons a lot more rare and more balanced with their PVE equivilants.

Blackthought · 04/23/08, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Maczor

I'm actually hoping that less people play Arena, making it so there are less points to go around, making the weapons a lot more rare and more balanced with their PVE equivilants.

For what reason? So youre purple pixels will have more worth in your eyes? I am starting to believe that this change had nothing to do with PVP but was rather instituted to appease the outcry from raiders who didnt participate in the arenas (due to skill or otherwise).

Akka · 04/23/08, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

And I'd argue that if competition is what PVP is about (which I agree with), then they should fix the BGs so that they're competitive in their own right.

If they've decided that BGs don't provide enough competition to have merit on their own, then they should be taken out of the game, not just act as some time filler to supplement arenas.

As for the "what is so bad about having to participate in arenas" questions, some people (myself included) really enjoy the fact that we can log in, play a game or two, log out on our own schedule and not worry about dicking over 4 other people in the process, and still get gear that way.

You still can.
You can even do that and get loot of the same relative power than the one from Archimonde.
Isn't that enough already ? You can log in and have fun without even having to bother to play with four people, and you can get loot on par with something requiring not four people but twenty-four, with strict minimaxing and monthes of progression.
I don't see what's to complain about.

While it's mostly a separate topic, I hate the fact that one of the few solo* ways to gear up in WoW is now being largely neutered.

Neutered to being "only" ilevel 141 loot (aka "Archimonde loot"), and some future ilevel 150+ items (aka "Illidan loot"). Wow. That's sure a hell of a neutering...

In PvE words, what you have available is Black Temple soloable, and you complain that four boss out of six in Sunwell will require to be 5-manned ?

• sadris · 04/23/08, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Siddown

Stuff about gearing up fast

Given that I can level an alt and zone into BT/Hyjal and collect a full set of T6 loot in under 5 hours I vehemently disagree with the current process of gearing up for PVP. If it was your first character I might say that "putting in the time" is a useful experience in the grand "RPG" process but to be forced to spend 236 hours (now even more with these changes) in AV for every character you want to play without getting shitstomped in arena is a bit absurd. As I have already stated in the PVP forums, people should be given (yes given) a full set of PVP gear everytime they zone into an arena. It is a test of skill, so gear should not be a limiting factor in one's ability to be (or not be) successful in it. This also has the added benefit of eliminating point selling and reducing the impact of class-specific nerfs/buffs. Nerfs in general would create much less anguish, as leveling a new character is somewhat interesting compared to browsing The Pirate Bay trying to find yet another movie to watch during your Nth hour in AV.

McTurok · 04/23/08, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Blackthought

For what reason? So youre purple pixels will have more worth in your eyes? I am starting to believe that this change had nothing to do with PVP but was rather instituted to appease the outcry from raiders who didnt participate in the arenas (due to skill or otherwise).

Hardly the case since you or anyone else doing arenas will be able to get the S3 weapons. The best gear in the game should always be more rare whether it comes from PvP or PvE.

Prag · 04/23/08, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Siddown

Don't you think that this is a tad of an over reaction? Let's say I start from scratch with an alt and during my grind to 70I also have been doing BGs, which means I start out at 70 with the best:

- PvP Trinket in the game
- PvP Necklace in the game
- PvP Belt in the game
- 2nd Best PvP Ring in the game for my "Off" ring slot.

I fill my Chest, Pants, Gloves, Shoulders and Helmet with the PvP Blues then make an a decision. Do I want to use filler blues for my Bracers and Boots, or do I want the Second Best piece available for those slot (S3 gear) which are near identical to S4 anyways.

Throw in a few weeks of going 5-5 in the Arena, and now I've also got the best OH, Wand and Gloves in the game. Add a few more weeks (okay, months) and I have the second best for every other slot in the game except Shoulders and Main Hand weapon, which I can grab with Badge Rewards (which are amazing), or can suck it on and "only" get S2 Shoulders and MH. Now, if the system works as intended and the Arena isn't flooded with 2000+ rated teams selling points, so the 1500 bracket is the "true" 1500 bracket, then getting to 1700 isn't all that hard, which means S4 Pants, Chest and Helmet are also now available to me. Not to mention, if I held off on getting the BG rewards, S4 of those are also now available to me.

We're not even talking serious effort here, just knowing your class and not being a key turner should get you the access to the best of every gear slot except Shoulders and Main Hand.

So again, don't you think people who are against this are slightly over reacting?

I have to agree. I think you made a few great points in your post.

To be quite honest, I'm just appreciative of the fact that at least SOME of the really awesome PvP gear will be available to me with little or no real effort. I enjoy BG's as a week or two break from the typical grind. And, honestly, it's not like the BEST PvP'ers on your server are wandering around Outlands or running in the BG's all the time. The best of the best do what they're best at --- Arenas. If you're a semi-casual player, the easily-obtainable PvP Rewards will be no sweat. Queue up and do some Dailies until you're called.

Great points Siddown.

• Disquette · 04/23/08, 1:49 PM

Originally Posted by Akka

You still can.
You can even do that and get loot of the same relative power than the one from Archimonde.
Isn't that enough already ? You can log in and have fun without even having to bother to play with four people, and you can get loot on par with something requiring not four people but twenty-four, with strict minimaxing and monthes of progression.
I don't see what's to complain about.

I can't imagine that you would see my point, given your focus on iLevels.

Neutered to being "only" ilevel 141 loot (aka "Archimonde loot"), and some future ilevel 150+ items (aka "Illidan loot"). Wow. That's sure a hell of a neutering...

see above.

In PvE words, what you have available is Black Temple soloable, and you complain that four boss out of six in Sunwell will require to be 5-manned ?

see above.

This game has been very kind (since the honor ladder was revoked) to those of us who have other objective-functions than you do. And for some of us, there's a lot more to this decision than a simple iLevel+color associated with a piece of gear. Based on the way that you see the game and its reward structure (from what I can tell from your post), I wouldn't expect you to have a problem with the new system. And, Blizzard is betting that a lot more people see the world of world of warcraft in that light as well. It sounds like you'll be very happy with it, and that's great.

I happen to be unhappy with it and will stop participating in their offerings resultantly. You can sling implied derision as much as you'd like, but that won't change the fact that I feel that I have a legitimate complaint that goes much further than your interpretation of it. For instance, if S1(vindicators) gear had S4 stats, and nothing else in this game changed, I would be no happier than I am now. Similarly, if S1(vindicators) gear didn't exist, S2 had S1 stats, S3 had S2 stats, and S4 had S3 stats, and no ratings requirements, I would be happy.

If this sort of happiness function doesn't make sense to you, then I think you don't really understand my issue with the system.

• Elendril · 04/23/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

. As I have already stated in the PVP forums, people should be given (yes given) a full set of PVP gear everytime they zone into an arena. It is a test of skill, so gear should not be a limiting factor in one's ability to be (or not be) successful in it

Should people zone into Sunwell and get a full set of t6 while they're inside? How is PVP different? Both PVE and PVP are about character progression as well as skill - the purely skill-based PVP is on the tournament realms, but arena and BGS on live servers are still tied to your character, and given the nature of WoW's progression based appeal, they still ought to be.

McTurok · 04/23/08, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

I can't imagine that you would see my point, given your focus on iLevels.

see above.

see above.

This game has been very kind (since the honor ladder was revoked) to those of us who have other objective-functions than you do. And for some of us, there's a lot more to this decision than a simple iLevel+color associated with a piece of gear. Based on the way that you see the game and its reward structure (from what I can tell from your post), I wouldn't expect you to have a problem with the new system. And, Blizzard is betting that a lot more people see the world of world of warcraft in that light as well. It sounds like you'll be very happy with it, and that's great.

I happen to be unhappy with it and will stop participating in their offerings resultantly. You can sling implied derision as much as you'd like, but that won't change the fact that I feel that I have a legitimate complaint that goes much further than your interpretation of it. For instance, if S1(vindicators) gear had S4 stats, and nothing else in this game changed, I would be no happier than I am now. Similarly, if S1(vindicators) gear didn't exist, S2 had S1 stats, S3 had S2 stats, and S4 had S3 stats, and no ratings requirements, I would be happy.

If this sort of happiness function doesn't make sense to you, then I think you don't really understand my issue with the system.

Yeah, we know. You are one of those players that wants the best PvP for playing his/her 10 games a week. We get it. And besides the point sellers, you too are part of the problem with the current system and why it needed change in the first place.

There is no reason you shouldn't enjoy your S3 gear a few of the S4 pieces.

• Disquette · 04/23/08, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by McTurok

Yeah, we know. You are one of those players that wants the best PvP for playing his/her 10 games a week. We get it. And besides the point sellers, you too are part of the problem with the current system and why it needed change in the first place.

There is no reason you shouldn't enjoy your S3 gear a few of the S4 pieces.

I'm glad that you wrote and responded in this way, because at least you show outright that you didn't read/comprehend what I wrote. This way I feel quite comfortable in saying that you're not responding to the concerns listed.

Havok · 04/23/08, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by McTurok

Yeah, we know. You are one of those players that wants the best PvP for playing his/her 10 games a week. We get it. And besides the point sellers, you too are part of the problem with the current system and why it needed change in the first place.

There is no reason you shouldn't enjoy your S3 gear a few of the S4 pieces.

I'm gonna say that you didn't understand his point.

At this point, I'm just curious to see how this will all play out. Arenas being a zero-sum game and all, if a participation drop happens, I wonder how easy the "easy 1700" rating will be.

EDIT:

Disquette,

Would you mind clarifying this statement for me?

For instance, if S1(vindicators) gear had S4 stats, and nothing else in this game changed, I would be no happier than I am now. Similarly, if S1(vindicators) gear didn't exist, S2 had S1 stats, S3 had S2 stats, and S4 had S3 stats, and no ratings requirements, I would be happy.

• sadris · 04/23/08, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

Should people zone into Sunwell and get a full set of t6 while they're inside? How is PVP different?

If it is their second character, yes they should, and do. Just as our recent shadow priest->warlock reroll was given full T6 in under 3 days, when I switch from my Druid to my XXX in PVP I shouldn't have to spend 236 hours in AV per character. When I switch from feral to balance spec in PVE I don't have to go back to karazhan->gruul->SSC->BT. Why is PVP so much worse than PVE when it comes to gearing up (especially after this patch)?

I don't disagree that people who are unable to get past 1800 should be disallowed from obtaining BT+ level items, but people who are at 2200 already shouldn't go through the same trifles of going from S1->S2->S3 on every character they play.

McTurok · 04/23/08, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

If it is their second character, yes they should, and do. Just as our recent shadow priest->warlock reroll was given full T6 in under 3 days, when I switch from my Druid to my XXX in PVP I shouldn't have to spend 236 hours in AV per character. When I switch from feral to balance spec in PVE I don't have to go back to karazhan->gruul->SSC->BT. Why is PVP so much worse than PVE when it comes to gearing up (especially after this patch)?

I don't disagree that people who are unable to get past 1800 should be disallowed from obtaining BT+ level items, but people who are at 2200 already shouldn't go through the same trifles of going from S1->S2->S3 on every character they play.

I think you are being a bit extreme in your statement about "gearing up (especially after this patch)". The only real changes are those items for S4. You can still get up your Alts in S3. Unless you are referring the method of gearing up PvP characters since you won't be able to buy/sell points/teams.

You also need to acknowledge that while you might be able to gear up another character in T6 in 3 days a very large majority of players in the game will never be able to do that.

The blue set has helped my alt's out in PvP so far, but I too do not like the current BG grind. Orgainized Bg's (laddered WSG, AB, etc.) would solve a lot of these problems I think.

Maybe you can expand on your statement about "S1->S2->S3 on every character". How would you like to see the system work?

Giantlol · 04/23/08, 2:58 PM

I wish they'd lessen the honor costs of items on 2nd/3rd/4th etc characters
Even just grinding out my alts honor gear is retardedly tedious, and I'm sure many other people out there feel the same way, especially those like having competitive arena alts
I don't know where I'm going with this, but@Sadris

Not everyone can get full T6 for rerolls/alts in a week