Melee do clear debuffs but its not anything crazy. Just a shaman or warrior mostly as noted above and obviously the tanks. every so often ranged/healers may hop down to clear debuffs if they get a an uncomfortable stack of shadow.

I strongly disagree. If you do that, then a scenario of : OT getting conflag, 3 sec later MT gets conf, 1-2 melee dies before OT trinkets out + demo shouts to hop back on aggro list is way too probable( sometimes demo isnt needed but sometimes it is), If you have conflag , just trinket it out. If MT has blow and conflag is gonna hit in few seconds - melee gtfo from the tank to give him time for trinket.

Fun times are when sometimes at half fight where you are just about to kill Blue, your MT gets targeted for conflag and conf blowed same time = no trinket, no movement. Shows quickly which melee is paying attention to something else then whispers from mods .

Melee should never have to back off or stop DPS unless something drastically wrong has already happened. The only scenario in which a tank's PvP trinket should be used is when a situation might arise where a Confounding Blow + directly targetted Conflag happen. It will be pretty damn obvious when this happens, because there's a reliable CB timer and you can see who's being targetted for Conflag.

I read through the last 6 pages, but I didn't see anything about this issue specifically. Can anyone confirm whether or not a PvP trinket will remove Confounding Blow?

I'm learning to tank this fight (my guild learned it with two other tanks), and I have been targeted for Conflag while being affected by Confounding Blow. When it happened, I used my trinket (it was on cooldown afterwards), but I still could not move before I blew up the melee with conflag. I feel that the trinket didn't work, but it could have also been client to server lag?

I asked the other tanks from my guild who had tanked the fight whether or not the PvP trinket worked for confounding blow, and none of them had ever had both debuffs at the same time in order to test their trinket on confounding blow, and I haven't experienced both at once since then.

It does not remove confounding blow.

Because of this, your tanks and melee should pay attention to confounding blow. If the confounding blow'ed tank gets conflag, make a run for it. If people fail, its ok just go again. It's rare anyway, but certainly not an instant wipe.

I see a lot of reference to dps getting tranquil air totems, which makes sense to me. However, we had our first attempts last night and our raid leader stacked four resto shaman in one group with a spriest for 4x mana tide, leaving just one enhance shaman with the tanks and no totems for anyone else. Can anyone comment on how viable this will be vs a more normal group setup with TA for the ranged? We didn't have any really long attempts (ledge boss ftl), but even with an imp out and no consumables I was uncomfortably close to the tank in a couple cases.

I believe the idea was to focus on survival a lot more than dps. Twins isn't a dps race, keeping people alive is paramount. Having 4 resto shaman chain heal the hell out of seared people goes a long way to keeping the raid alive. Those shaman, especially if they're haste stacking, bloodlusting spammers will definitely great use out of a shadow priest. My guild has had kills with the top shaman doing 3k HPS over the entire fight. Most of the shaman are in the ~2500 HPS range when the shadow chick dies.

Now, that said.. having 4 resto shaman in the same group is getting a bit excessive. 1 or 2 per shadow priest group is likely better overall. If you only have 1 shadow priest for that fight, well I guess you just have to make due.

As mentioned by others, the shamans should be split up among tank, caster, dps groups for maximum utilization. The tranquil air for some of the ranged dpsers helped control aggro a ton. We had our shamans after a minute into the fight, remove Tranquil air and put down the respective boost totems for their party members (air, wf, wrath).

This fight is mainly about surviving first and not being stupid about conflags and dps second. Just a general guideline that has probably been mentioned previously, The first twin, if you're doing Sacrolash first, should die @3min or a bit before. On our kill, we had Sac down at approx 2.5 min.

To note: Tell your healers to not forget to heal the Alythess tank when jumping down off the ledge. We had that happen once or twice when everyone decided to jump and there was a brief pause in healing.

We have the raid go in two groups: everyone but the shamans, and the shamans. once the rest of the raid is pretty much stacked up then the shamans jump down.

We killed Twins tonight, and it isn't too horrible of a fight really. I had to scale back a little but it's better safe than sorry. I'm going to try out the -threat meta, but are you sure the -threat currently works? I know it was broken for awhile.

Really the only important thing is to live through phase one and to complete it in a reasonable time frame . Dps is rarely an issue unless people are dying in p1.

Assuming the one camp strat killing Sacrolash first the largest issue for us atleast was tank positioning. Once that is worked out and you stop getting chain stunned the fight is substantially easier.

Similar case with my guild. Second attempt after we moved to the 1 camp strat, we killed them. It REally boils down to coordinating sear heals, making sure the camp is touching the pillar, running out if you have conflag, keeping the 2 tanks at highest threat and surviving the jump down for p2 (it is pretty high).

One thing of note too: even on my high-end rig, my game tends to freeze up whenever Sacrolash shadownova's the camp, which could mean a wipe if you have to run with conflag and can't. Simply turning down spell detail prevents this freeze up for me. Just remember to put it back up after the fight.

Someone informed me that my video got linked here. I am incredibly flattered and very glad it was of use to you and your guild. I aimed to create a resource of the sort that I *wished* I had while I was learning the fight.

I also created a video for the Felmyst encounter and am working on a M'uru video as well. Eventually I hope to create walkthrough videos for the entire instance.

We used a mostly different strategy on our Felmyst versus yours, but watching yours definitely gave us some ideas and was very entertaining for those cold, dark nights of wiping anyway. I look forward to your other videos. Good luck and thank you.

clearly talks faster than my brain works :P

the videos are good even if you tweak em the strats that work the best are all pretty much the same.



recomended for all people just starting on twins

Yah this is unnecessary, Moander. I spread the shamans out normally. Every group has a shaman. 3 resto, 1 ele, 1 enhance or 4 resto, 1 enhance, depending on who's on. I do bring 2 shadow priests, but I give the SPs to the caster dps group 1 to a healer group. I've never had the shaman report mana issues, so I think this is overboard. TA helps a ton as you noticed. Also, if you go with 2 warrior tanks on Sac, windfury helps threat a lot.

I have the same problem as you during shadownovas, and this problem also occurs during Mother Shahraz during fatal attraction and on Illidan during flame burst. This problem only started after a patch. I believe it was two major patches ago.

We have few problems in p1 (reverse order).

1. Our OT (warriorx2 tanks) keeps getting a lot of conflags so he needs to run a lot and lose important aggro... All dpsers have to hold on in p1 (enh shammy in their grp) cause of this.

2. Sacrolash is constantly moving like crazy and melee dps needs to run around her like mongs trying to avoid parries. Any nice spot where she would be tanked and move less and where tanks should stay and turn her.

Currently lock tank is on left side, tanks are facing also that side with their backs, and melee is running to the right side for conflags, along with OT when he gets it (is it better for him just to move back to the left side closer to lock tank for conflags and avoid more running for melee spot conflags). Should we turn tank backs toward Alythess?

Thanks

I think my first reaction to your post is: So? If those are your biggest problems (threat and parries).. consider yourself lucky to (presumably) not of dealt with working on the fight killing fire-first when the 1st gate came down.

1:
Double warrior tank for a Shadow-first strat is just begging for threat problems. Having Conflag on the OT sucks, and it WILL force your dps to holy back (especially if they get it first and/or repeatedly). It sucks, but its easily manageable - your dps just stop dps'ing and wait. The enrage timer is easy, learn control. Use Tranq Air in any non-tank group if at all possible. Get your tanks as much TPS-support as possible (Enhance Sham, Feral, Surv Hunter, CoR, BM hunters in the group, etc). If at all possible, use a druid when doing shadow-first. We used double-druid for our first few kills to help with threat, we now use a warrior MT, druid OT (since they can keep up to a warrior while OT'ing a LOT easier than visa versa).

2:
She moves. A lot. Tanks will just have to get used to it and do their best. Melee will be moving a lot and still occasionally parry. Have your tanks do their best at getting her back into position quickly and accurately. There is no position in which she doesn't move, just learn to cope and get her back in position as quickly and accurately as possible.

3:
Our melee run to (and past) Alythess. This includes the OT if he gets Conflag. If you end up with the very nasty Counfounding + Conflag at the same time on the same tank - you either will found out that you have an excellent melee crew or a dead pile of melee.

We run 2 Warriors to tank this on a farily regular basis. Threat is rarely, if ever, an issue. Rage is extremely easy to generate thanks to Blazes (on the pull only), Flame Sear and the Shadow Blades. The benefits of running a feral druid are very minimal from our experience since either the Druid will pass the Warrior tank in threat, or will have to hold back which defeats the purpose of using one.

We've done Warrior/Feral and the only thing it does is shave ~10-15 seconds off of phase one, and it's because of the personal DPS of the druid more than the threat ceiling.

After having tried with warrior+warrior, warrior+protpally and warrior+druid, the warrior+druid difference felt like night and day to improving OT TPS and therefore raid-DPS we could do on sacrolash. We've since been able to make the other combinations workable, but it does seem that feral+warrior is by far the most attractive option - much higher for us than 'very minimal'.

We were making attempts tonight, but by the end of the raid we had a few questions about the ninjas and their lifetime. I've seen comments earlier about their life-span being increased and we were having a few problems with shadowfury tonight. We've been going with the one camp strat, but the ninjas have been coming up the right ramp and stunning the raid. Can this be attributed to tank positioning or has the life of the ninjas been increased?