I totally agree about respecs. I respec on my warrior just to change some points around in prot build from twins to muru. Just a digression though - why would you have anyone respec for kalecgos trash :P. Just ask some of your raiders to come on mage alts - nothing like having 5 sheeps for it, if you actually need help with it

Yeah, we saw this macro cause a rather ugly wipe on Illidan this past week, either due to slow spamming or latency between the application of the NP buff and the client canceling it (during which the mob may decide to pick a different target, and won't switch back until after a cast). I wouldn't recommend it and we sure won't be using it on our Twins attempts (or Illidan ever again). Don't be cheap/lazy, just respec.

Well sure respecs are now part of the game, that's not really a financial issue specially with most SW guilds having 50k+ gold. But you won't miss them if you could avoid them without being less efficient. It is how the game work right now but it is quite boring to respec 1-2-3-... times a night.

Anyway i don't think it would work, as the demo has to move, he sometimes will have netherprotec on and Alythless will focus another player. Even is the odds were low, it can happen and a wipe is a much bigger loss in time and money than 100g.

We are currently working on the Twins (reverse) and our trys show good progress, but we often encounter a stiuation, we still don't know how to handle:

On quite a lot of pulls our Tank or Offtank on Sacrolash (2x Prot-Warrior) gets conflagration 2, 3 or even 4 times in a fight.
While it might be possible to break one or two conflags with the insignia, it's a extremely problematic situation for us.

When the MT gets Conflagration and the Offtank nearly instantaneous gets Confounding Blow we more or less face a wipe.

Do you experience tank conflagrations and conflag-confounding-blow combinations too? How do you handle tank conflagrations?

just out of curiosity, you know that you dont get more loot any more if you do them in reverse order, right ? why would you do them reverse ?

Yes we know, but strategy and execution of the reverse killing order seems more fitting for our raid.
Thus we decided that the reverse order might be "easier" for us,

That also means that you do not want your 3rd person on aggro list to be a melee (anyway I suggest when learning the fight no to bring more than 2 melee dps if possible).

Honestly the more rogues you bring to twins the easier they get. Most dps of all classes (aggro isnt really a problem with competent tanks for rogues - just put your tanks in melee group). No conflags on a LOT of attempts (its usually assumed top 2-6 or so aggro gets conflag - which if you get 2 melee groups means usually 3-4 rogues are there) - Rogues are "immune" to conflag (vanish while casting). Easier healing with cloak to remove excessive debuffs/shut down damage.

I can see some serious problems with fury warriors and a bit less enh shamans - you dont want to *stack* them. But 1 dps warrior/2 enh/1 ret/feral+prot tank/4 rogues was our about easiest kills. Not to mention 2 groups down there make healing much easier since you just stack shaman chain heals on tanks to give them AF + bounces top everyone off, while priests/other healers focus on ranged. Lately we often bring very little melee, but its mostly because of bringing right people for right loot, rather then focusing on effectiveness.

That can be divided into 3 categories.

a) Confounding and Conflag timers dont collide - just go on as usual.

b) Confounding comes 1st, disorients MT just before conflag. This means MT (while temporarily with 0 aggro from confounding) can get conflagged). Call it out (its easy since conflag is on a 100% predictable timer), and melee runs to the conflag spot with OT, rather then the person conflagged. As i said - it is pretty easy to spot in advance. If any of the melee gets caught in conflag, just use pvp trinket. If its down/dont have it, well too bad, they can be ressed or maybe healed through.

c) Conflag comes 1st on OT , then confounding on MT - the OT just needs to be quick - pvp trinket/battle shout/roar something to "tag the mob back" (Sacrolash sometimes doesnt come back after you trinket conflag, unless you hit or debuff her). If OT pvp trinket is down, then melee runs away if he gets conflag again (its REALLY rare).

In general you can imagine scenarios where Twins seem to be particulary mean to your raid, but pvp trinkets on tanks get rid of 90% of them, and leave only the very unprobable ones.

I can probably imagine attempt where repeated confounding MT/conflag OT like 6 times in a row can lead to a wipe because tanks wont have aggro (kiting or not), but frankly - how probable you think it is? If such thing happens - oh well, you probably wiped before to dumber stuff, no need to complicate your strategies based on freak accidents.

My guild had just started learning Twins, we've had about 30 tries on them so far. We do Sacrolash first, having a prot warrior (me) and a feral druid on her. It goes like this: I jump down, use shield slam, move about 5 steps to my assigned spot. theoretically, she should keep attacking me WITHOUT any moves (because I don't move). But she seems to be kind of dancing with me. Sometimes she moves to the right/left, sometimes she steps forward, forcing me to step backward ("the target needs to be in front of you" message)

Is there a way to make her stand in one spot (until Confounding Blow of course), or is she going to "dance" like that all the time?

AFAIK from my experience when tanking it and the experience I've seen first-hand she always does this 'silly dance'. I'm totally in the dark why, and it is very annoying but you just have to learn to deal with it.

It also complicates the positioning abit more and sometimes forces melee-DPS to be out of LoS with the healers up top (atleast in my own experience). Sometimes I'm unable to heal my pet on my hunter due to the silly 'dance' she does (because the pet will always try to come behind the mob).

Just wanted to see if anyone else had experienced this. We do the Sacrolash first strategy, and were throwing all heroisms when Sacrolash hit 40%. Last week, we noticed that every time we did that, we would then get a bunch of shadowfury stuns slightly afterwards, even if nothing had changed with the positioning downstairs and we hadn't been getting them prior to heroism. One of our members is theorizing that the change in player size following heroism is to blame for getting the shadowfury stuns. Is this possible, or might there be some other reason?

We seem to be having trouble with keeping our tanks(sacrolash) alive, basically we have a holy paladin on each tank and a druid rolling full HoTs on both. Assuming we keep it that way so that each paladin has one tank instead of both swapping, could anyone with experience on tank healing for this fight offer any advice? or if this is even enough to heal the damage from sarcolash (or very risky)?

Are you losing the tanks to Confounding Blow damage? Or the stacking affects of the various AoEs from the Twins (or Shadowfury stuns hitting) throwing your tank healers off? Is it even a case of losing LoS to the tanks?

The damage Sacrolash can toss out on the tank means you do want 2 healers on the aggro target fulltime. You can use a paladin/tree on the current aggro target if you wish, but one of the 3 total healers watching the two tanks needs to top up the tank who has just lost aggro. We tend to favour the 3rd tank healer on Sacro tanks to be a tree, with the 2 other healers focusing on the tank with current aggro. The tree, if acting as support on both Sacro tanks, should specifically top up the tank who just ate Confounding Blow making the transition for the other two healers more stable. In this third healer role, the tree should be managing some HoTing support on the Alythess tank also.

We usually just put any combination of 2 priest/paladins on the Sacrolash tanks. Then the raid healers have their specific assigned groups, and the person healing the groups the tanks are in will also throw them some hots/chain heals when it's needed. Don't have an issue with tanks dying with this setup. What exactly is it that they're dying from? It might be that they need to adjust their gear slightly.

It's possible but it's also a failure of positioning.

If you're hitting this then your positioning really isn't very good - there should certainly be more than enough buffer space (either people aren't hugging the pillar enough or your tanks below aren't really keeping her back far enough.)

Nope, some mobs like to move a bit, and she's one of those mobs. That said, I've never seen a case where she's moved to the other side of me, and if you're having to back up - I'm very dubious about how you're positioning her (I'm guessing you're not holding her in a very good place, you've not got much choice about where you put her if you want to avoid shadowfuries on the raid, and yes sometimes you have to move to get her back in position.)

We had out 1st serious night of tried, hopefully conquered the ledge boss now, so working on phase 1 (sacrolash pillar humping). Read some of this thread and was looking for help on 2 points.

1) 1 or 2 ranged grps?
We started of with one ranged grp and seemed to get a rather large amount of shdowfury (the aoe stun thing) on the raid and wiped due to if alot of the time, we then changed to 2 grps, seemed nice, but maybe one grp could not get a debuff reset for awhile and end up all dieing? 1 ranged grp means everyone should get a debuff wipe fairly frequently.

2) Assigned grp healers or FFA?
So far we just tried FFA raid healing (3 shamans 3 priest - would of brought 1 extra healer but none online) and were still loosing people, this was our 1st night so maybe we need to get used to the encounter, but was thinking maybe assigned grp healers would be better?

Thanks in advance for any feedback you give.

FFA raid healing is always a bad idea in most every fight in our experience. You need to be very precise about your heal assignements, especially on twins. Our typical healing breakdown is:

1) 2 paladins and 2 resto druids for tank healing.

2) 4 shamans assigned a specific group to heal. 1 or 2 CoH priests assigned to assist the shaman if one group gets bad luck with flame sears / heal conflag damage.

How many shadowfuries you get is due to:

(a) are your people up against the pillar like they should be, and
(b) are your tanks positioning her correctly.

One group is actually the only way to avoid shadowfuries, since if you go with two groups, one is close enough that they'll be eating them.

Group healers is always better (make sure they prioritize their group, not just only focus on them) since this prevents people healing the same player when a lot of people take damage. Sure there are "show incoming heals" mods on Grid and such but this will always cost additional time because of lag (both real lag and lag in your head ). Also mandatory is to have people get Grid and let it show "Flame Sear" debuff (or any other mod which can do the same thing). This way it's easy to spot which players will be taking most of the damage, helps significantly.

a) could over sized tauren hitbox be effecting this?
b) will look into.

thanks for help.

Whenever I assign healing for Twins, I tend to assign one shaman or priest healing priority of one of the five group before looking to heal the rest of raid, with special focus to look for Flame Sear debuffs. I then ask priests and druids to toss HoTs on people who have high Flame Touch stacks to help mitigate that damage.

Also remind the entire raid to be ready to use healthstones and potions (we tend to drop a major fire protection cauldron still, but a super healing potion is also good enough) to stay alive if they find themselves dipping low. Buying an extra half a second for a heal to land and staying alive is more important than saving the pot cooldown for a dps potion of some sort.