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Old 05/03/08, 8:03 PM   #51
Liebestod
King Hippo
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
The more interesting question is, what does this open the door to?
Fights that are even twitchier in the "OMG HEAL ME NAO" department, since now your Flash Heal will take 1.15 seconds to cast instead of 1.5! :P Hope your ping isn't above 200!

(Not trying to whine, just enjoying a sadistic thought.)

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Old 05/04/08, 6:52 AM   #52
Selicia
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
The neat thing about the Spire is the 50% heal proc can work on each hit of Cheal plus higher mana usage per second.
No doubt the new weapon is by far the best for PvP.
I realize crystal spire procs off each cheal bounce, which is why I didn't plan on replacing it ever. However the value of getting an amazingly large amount of chain heals off is worth way more than a proc for a chance at 200 healing. And mana is a non-issue for end game shaman.

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Old 05/04/08, 10:15 AM   #53
Jebraltar
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Staghelm
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
But might we start seeing tanking weapons with 400 stam or 10% dodge? Feral tank weapons with several thousand armor? Healer weapons with a hundred mp/5? PvP weapons with 250 resilience? Hunter weapons with 600 RAP?
I would say that's pretty unlikely. The reason that they added the conversions to feral AP and spell damage were because the weapon damage was useless for casters and druids anyway. This is an alternative form of caster scaling, but it's still aimed to the group weapon damage is completely useless for. There is a threat advantage to higher weapon damage for warriors, and if you're dealing with 40 DPS 1h'ers compared to 100 DPS 1h'ers, it's pretty significant. Ranged AP from weapons would be possible, but unlikely, since Hunters scale fine from the rest of their gear and get their base DPS upgrades from the bow slot.

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Old 05/05/08, 3:44 AM   #54
crimsonsentinel
Bald Bull
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
For PVP purposes, I see this being most useful for priests, especially in the 5v5 bracket where they are backed by real healers and don't need to output much raw healing. 1.5 sec mana burns are possibly with this and a couple other haste pvp peices, which is pretty insane.


For other classes it's a lot more situational because you lose a lot of burst and mana efficiency with the loss of +heal/dmg. I can see it being more useful for frost mages since they have no protection from spell pushback so the haste could let them get off spells they wouldn't normally, but again thats highly situational and rare.

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Old 05/05/08, 3:56 AM   #55
Prinsesa
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Echo Isles
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel View Post
For PVP purposes, I see this being most useful for priests, especially in the 5v5 bracket where they are backed by real healers and don't need to output much raw healing. 1.5 sec mana burns are possibly with this and a couple other haste pvp peices, which is pretty insane.

<snip>
I agree with this statement. Spell haste is huge for Mana Burn, which doesn't really scale with anything else - especially when the Disc Priest playstyle can afford making the healing -> haste sacrifice.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

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Old 05/05/08, 4:05 AM   #56
moowalk
Don Flamenco
 
Troll Priest
 
Khaz'goroth
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
I agree with this statement. Spell haste is huge for Mana Burn, which doesn't really scale with anything else - especially when the Disc Priest playstyle can afford making the healing -> haste sacrifice.
Or in my Warrior, Druid, Priest setup. I don't do much healing there. Even in Priest/rogue I wouldn't rank +healing as a primary stat.

If you look at the middle of season 2 most priest were running ~1400 healing, and I think I'll be at about that level swapping a healing weapon for this.

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Old 05/05/08, 6:32 AM   #57
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
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Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
I just want to pop in and confirm that swapping a weapon in combat as a caster (at least as a mage) will give you a 1.5s cooldown, regardless of your haste.

So, when swapping weapons for something that has less than 1.5s - 2.0s cast time, you might actually lose from weapon swaps.



/run hooksecurefunc("CooldownFrame_SetTimer", function(_, start, duration, enable) if start > 0 and enable > 0 then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(duration) end end)

Copy/paste this into your chat, and then it should spam numbers everytime you cast something. It spams the cooldowns of everything in your hotbars, so it's messy and just for testing.

Casting scorch, it spammed 1.09 all over (GCD with haste clickies), using my "/cast scorch /equip wand_1 /equip wand_2" macro it spammed 1.5 all over.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

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Old 05/05/08, 11:57 AM   #58
Sayessa
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warlock
 
Antonidas (EU)
I may have found the perfect use for warlocks and the haste weapon:
Use these macros:
/cast Lifetap
/equip Brutal Gladiator's Blade of Alacrity

and

/cast Shadowbolt
/equip Brutal Gladiator's Spellblade

Lifetap when needed (you don't loose Lifetap Mana because you swap weapons after the tap) and cast a shadowbolt, that benefits from both weapons. You gain one hasted shadowbolt every lifetap, and loose your standard haste rating for one gcd. Thoughts on that ?

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Old 05/05/08, 1:33 PM   #59
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
It is a net benefit, although the benefit is small. Compared to just using damage, you gain one hasted shadowbolt per lifetap. Since shadowbolt has a longer cast time, it gains a larger absolute time difference (10% of 2.5 is more time than 10% of 1.5), so such a cycle should always take less time than a swap-less one.


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Old 05/05/08, 6:13 PM   #60
Promethius
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Sayessa View Post
I may have found the perfect use for warlocks and the haste weapon:
Use these macros:
/cast Lifetap
/equip Brutal Gladiator's Blade of Alacrity

and

/cast Shadowbolt
/equip Brutal Gladiator's Spellblade

Lifetap when needed (you don't loose Lifetap Mana because you swap weapons after the tap) and cast a shadowbolt, that benefits from both weapons. You gain one hasted shadowbolt every lifetap, and loose your standard haste rating for one gcd. Thoughts on that ?
Although it seems like a solid idea at low haste levels, wouldn't it actually be harmful to DPS to do this under high haste? Like under bloodlust/heroism, you'd have a 1.05 sec gcd and 1.75 sec shadowbolts at 0 initial haste rating. The 1.5 sec required for a weapon swap means a 0.45 sec lost that I don't think would be made up by only 227 haste rating applied to a 1.75 sec spell.

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Old 05/07/08, 1:40 AM   #61
Xavias
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Korgath
Healing Touch anyone?

This would make DS Druids viable in PvE.

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Old 05/07/08, 2:15 AM   #62
Pointyleaf
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Thunderlord
Originally Posted by Xavias View Post
Healing Touch anyone?

This would make DS Druids viable in PvE.
It *might* - but why would you do it? It's still less healing/mana than lifebloom.

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Old 05/07/08, 2:42 PM   #63
glowacks
Piston Honda
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ravencrest
Originally Posted by Jebraltar View Post
I would say that's pretty unlikely. The reason that they added the conversions to feral AP and spell damage were because the weapon damage was useless for casters and druids anyway. This is an alternative form of caster scaling, but it's still aimed to the group weapon damage is completely useless for. There is a threat advantage to higher weapon damage for warriors, and if you're dealing with 40 DPS 1h'ers compared to 100 DPS 1h'ers, it's pretty significant. Ranged AP from weapons would be possible, but unlikely, since Hunters scale fine from the rest of their gear and get their base DPS upgrades from the bow slot.
Indeed, the reason that Feral AP, bonus spell damage, and bonus healing exist on weapons is that their users get absolutely nothing out of a weapon besides the stats. Hunters already have a weapon that they actually use, and the role of ranged and melee weapons are merely reversed for them. It seems foolish to suggest that Blizzard make Ranged weapons that sacrifice DPS in order to provide more stats. The paradigm right now works perfectly fine.

The existence of all that Feral AP instead of damage-reduction-oriented stats on Feral staves is exactly due to the fact that warriors get DPS increases on their tanking weapons. Paladins will generally go with a mace or sword with spell damage if they're worried about threat. But there is no reason why Blizzard couldn't decide to make 40 DPS tanking weapons that get stamina for their DPS sacrifice, especially if they want to make it more feasible to switch from a DPS role to a tank role mid-combat. Unfortunately, unlike healing weapons, there is not one weapon type that all tanks would be using unless you let druids dual wield or give them tank-relevant off-hands.

I'm guessing that Blizzard has had this discussion internally for quite awhile, and basically arrived at what we're seeing because spell haste is the only DPS/Heal stat besides +dmg/+heal that scales indefinitely while maintaining its quality. Hit rating, expertise, and penetration (spell and armor) all cap, and crit rating very quickly becomes weak - especially in pvp where people have tons of resilience. Spell haste provides a continued increase in throughput, diminishing only in the same way +dmg does (ie, it more haste makes more +heal better, and vice versa) and for many functions is more valuable than +heal since it allows for smoother healing with less reaction time. Given that many spells have no benefit from +dmg/+heal, especially PvP staples like Mana Burn and Dispels, the item makes a lot of sense; given all the analogous combat ratings available, I don't see anything else slipping onto weapons in exchange for DPS.

That's not to say that a new stat they come up with for WotLK won't have very similar properties, but it's hard to theorize about those right now.

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