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05/30/08, 12:21 AM
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#46
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Warrior
Blackrock
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If your healers are healing in a terribly non-efficient way then you really do need to give them a bit of help.
A tack I often take is to be non-committal about what you're telling them, suggest that you think they'd perform better and be more useful to the raid if they were healing in x way. It's incredibly frustrating when people say "well that's the way I do it and it works for me" when they are the guy who's always last on the healing meters because they're a flash heal spammer. Any way you can nudge them towards trying out different (and better) things without making them feel like they're terrible is good.
In the end if the person refuses to change you're going to want to find someone to replace them. Eventually work up to the point where you say if they don't make an effort to change for the better of the guild, they're going to get replaced by someone who puts in effort. If they still don't change (and this is the case the majority of the time if they've resisted up to this point) you steadily stop inviting them to raids and giving their spot to the other person.
Often the player needs to respect you to pay more attention to you. When I can spam Chain Heal rank 4 to my heart's content and completely decimate any healing meter, in any raid, ever, any other shaman we have come on board is going to listen to my suggestions. This is similar to teaching tree druids to juggle rolling lifeblooms. It wasn't something I fully understood and got the hang of until I'd leveled my own druid to 70, then asked for advice on why my performance was bad.
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05/30/08, 1:47 AM
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#47
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Team Healbot
Human Paladin
Tichondrius
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You need to make sure that you have healers who understand how important they are to a raid and reinforce that to them.
- It is a selfless job, the majority of the time you will be on the end of the blame, so having people know what's coming and if the blame is wrong fill in the rest of the raid on how so.
- Healers usually cannot afk at all, especially Druids who are stuck on global.
- Running light on healing makes things fun if you have a solid healing squad. It should keep them interested, especially during farm content. Make sure you do this on nights when spirits are high, there are always those nights that people just want to get in and out, those nights make it easier on everyone.
- Communication is huge, as a raid, as a healing squad. People should know who is healing where and why. That way if support is needed, it's there as soon as possible.
- As a 'lead' you should know how fights work and how game mechanics work. Reading up on things, talk with others; basically just collecting information will help you out a ton in decision making.
- Assignments should be based on your guilds play style and strengths. Assignments then should be filtered through the encounter dynamics.
- Trash is not a joke, make sure people have assignments. Wiping to trash affects the raids mentality, keeping things positive will keep the raid focused when it's go time on bosses.
It's not a difficult job, having someone they can talk to and respect is what you will be there for.
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Confidence is not Arrogance.
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05/30/08, 2:11 AM
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#48
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Renew
- It is a selfless job, the majority of the time you will be on the end of the blame, so having people know what's coming and if the blame is wrong fill in the rest of the raid on how so.
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This is not a universal truth. If you find healers are shouldering an unfair portion of the blame, speak up! Often people aren't even aware they're being especially harsh on healers. In a previous guild, the raid leaders/officers fell into the "blame the healers" trap, but after sending a detailed message to the raid leader breaking down how tank or DPS failures were actually to blame for many of the things the healers were getting flack for, things improved dramatically.
As a healing leader, I'd advise you to defend your healers strongly against criticism from DPS who think it's their god given right to get heals no matter how long they stand in the fire. Nothing burns healers out faster than being forced to take unfair crap from bad players. I know healers tend to be the "stand at the back and not say much, just do a job" personality types, but sometimes as healing leader you need to "tank" the aggro from other players. 
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05/30/08, 2:16 AM
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#49
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Team Healbot
Human Paladin
Tichondrius
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I just meant that it's trivial to be a DPS class, where as if you are a healer you do not have a 'meter' that people can gauge you on and pat you on the back.
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Confidence is not Arrogance.
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05/30/08, 2:29 AM
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#50
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Piston Honda
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I find plenty of satisfaction in mocking DPS classes who call for a meter, eg "If only WoW had a way of installing your own DPS meter without having to spam raid asking for someone else to do it!" Your job is as fun and as rewarding as you make it. :lol:
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05/30/08, 3:32 AM
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#51
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Bald Bull
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basically my guild is on the bottom of the foodchain. I really have to scavenge around to find a good healer with decent gear
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Just a quick comment on this question. On my server (Blackrock) our guild is ~3rd on alliance progression. I still have to scavenge around to find a healer with decent gear sometimes. At one point recently I was very desperate for shamans (For twins, back when we were still learning felmyst) and had to basically ask the guild to , en masse, help me get shamans - from anywhere, in any gear - the only requirement is they had to be good. Any raid guild can gear people up, but its only worth it if you think they'll be worth the investment. Guildies knew that if they saw a unguilded shaman - tell me. If they grouped with a shaman (in anything: 5 man, kara etc) who seemed promising - tell me. If you know any friends, on our or another server suitable - tell me. etc
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- Priests still stuck in their flash healing ways
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This is very true, but id like to add one more 'common problem' ive noticed with healers:
- Paladin 'main tank' syndrome. These are the sorts of healers who are so used to mindlessly healing the MT for several years they actually forget some encounters in TBC need you to pay attention as well - and die to stupid shit because they werent actually paying attention! They might be fantastic MT healers, but that won't matter if they are dead!
Felmyst is the perfect example. Our Paladins often died due to a nearby encapsulate, more than other classes. Im convinced that its because paladins have been conditioned (by nature of their class design) to basically just spam the MT. I dont know about other guilds, but most of our paladins only want to ever do one thing: Spam the MT. None of them volunteer for the off duties (Infernal healing on anetheron, doomguards on azgalor, incinerate dispelling on teron, raid healing on council, dark barrage topping up on illidan) - everyone just wants to stand still and do nothing but heal the MT. So its no real surprise that when they actually to pay attention (hi encapsulate) as well, the chance of failing seems higher. This, of course, can apply to any healing class - but from first hand experience ive noticed it most on Paladins.
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05/30/08, 6:07 AM
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#52
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King Hippo
Human Paladin
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
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Originally Posted by Tyrian
I dont know about other guilds, but most of our paladins only want to ever do one thing: Spam the MT. None of them volunteer for the off duties (Infernal healing on anetheron, doomguards on azgalor, incinerate dispelling on teron, raid healing on council, dark barrage topping up on illidan) - everyone just wants to stand still and do nothing but heal the MT.
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That's odd. Most of my guild's Paladin healer problems have come from our being all too willing to heal the raid, to the point where occasionally we all move off the MT at once. This nefarious and shameful practice will soon stop, however, as I've now got an addon that shows me who the healers are healing (albeit one I installed to find out if the second Paladin is meter chasing).
As for not volunteering for other duties: what is this strange word, "volunteer"? Raid and class leaders are not appointed to head the committee - they're appointed to lead! You don't ask people to do a job, you tell them to do it and you replace them if they don't.
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05/30/08, 8:52 AM
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#53
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Glass Joe
Troll Priest
Ragnaros (EU)
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Originally Posted by Tyrian
Just a quick comment on this question. On my server (Blackrock) our guild is ~3rd on alliance progression. I still have to scavenge around to find a healer with decent gear sometimes. At one point recently I was very desperate for shamans (For twins, back when we were still learning felmyst) and had to basically ask the guild to , en masse, help me get shamans - from anywhere, in any gear - the only requirement is they had to be good. Any raid guild can gear people up, but its only worth it if you think they'll be worth the investment. Guildies knew that if they saw a unguilded shaman - tell me. If they grouped with a shaman (in anything: 5 man, kara etc) who seemed promising - tell me. If you know any friends, on our or another server suitable - tell me. etc
This is very true, but id like to add one more 'common problem' ive noticed with healers:
- Paladin 'main tank' syndrome. These are the sorts of healers who are so used to mindlessly healing the MT for several years they actually forget some encounters in TBC need you to pay attention as well - and die to stupid shit because they werent actually paying attention! They might be fantastic MT healers, but that won't matter if they are dead!
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I'm investing quite some time in doing that atm,however we have another issue even though it's eu server it is full of portugese,turkish and finnish people. So while i am trying to recruit unguilded people the plain lack of the knowledge of the english language is a big problem. Recruited 4 shamans 1 shadowpriest(we have non atm) and 1 holy priest 3 shamans left or are inactive the 4th is working hard on his resto gear. The priest i got uses 78% flash heal no matter what i assign. Her gear is far from our current raidinglevel but hey i am nice so i run ssc/tk on offdays for the ones that are worth it. What frustrates me mostly is that yes people are worth it they play good however when they do get their epics it takes weeks if not months to enchant and gem it properly. Some priests are still thinking they need to reach 20% crit to regen mana like paladins.
As for paladins i try to switch them around on encounters so they won't turn into buttonsmashers that have no clue wtf is going on around them.
Haven't raided on your level yet unfortunatly some day hopefully i will get to see the new twins and KJ will be awesome to learn those fights.
As for the respeccing and letting healers dps in raids i'm not a fan of it some may like it and then you'll have to handle with the fact you have lost yet another healer. Had to respec shadow several times on my other priest can't say i really liked the spec.
Thanks for the replies it's great to see constructive posts like these,all that mindless whine get's boring after a while
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05/30/08, 11:02 AM
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#54
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Emerald Dream (EU)
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Originally Posted by Malleus
As for not volunteering for other duties: what is this strange word, "volunteer"? Raid and class leaders are not appointed to head the committee - they're appointed to lead! You don't ask people to do a job, you tell them to do it and you replace them if they don't.
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That depends completely on your guild culture. Personally I think that leading things as if you were playing Raiding Guild Manager 2008 can only end up in tragedy for most serious guilds, but I appreciate the fact that all guilds work in their own way and there are plenty of examples of excellence across the spectrum of management types.
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05/30/08, 12:53 PM
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#55
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Mondays
Apart from that when i assign healing i get almost no replies from any of the healers and we usually end up wiping due too the healers not doing what they're told. Not only that some of the healers simply do not read forums,enchant and gem their gear properly. Is it a lack of dedication and respect or do i simply fail? I've been healercl in my previous guild and i've never experienced this before so i'm quite frustrated.
Also the overhealing and the flash heal spam is freaking me out how can i tell people to change their gamingstyle in a non offending way?
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The best way to get respect from your healers is to give it, and to be a resource of information. We don't have any way to pay these people other than shiny epics, so I find positive re-enforcement works better than berating. Set yourself up to be their mentor and personal coach rather than their boss.
I try not to tell my healers how to heal, but rather give them information that leads them to the conclusion. People tend to own more what they come to rather than what people tell them. (I call it the fine art of letting someone else have my way) "PallyZ I see that often when a tank that I've assigned you to dies, you're casting flash of light but it seems like you're losing ground on the tanks health, how can I help you fix that?" (Have links to WWS for the inevitable "nu-uh")
Another pitfall I've learned to avoid is trying to cram a bunch of information in at once. I work with my healers and give them one task at a time to focus on. Once they've made improvement on that one thing, give them another "DruidQ I see that you've really mastered the rolling lifeblooms rotation we were talking about, I think now it's time to shift our focus to how you can incorporate swiftmends into that rotation to help us recover from spike damage."
Be clear with your healers regarding your expectations of them in raids. I don't say "bring consumables" I say, "every healer should make sure they have 20 golden fishsticks or 20 blackened sporefish" 20 guardian elixirs and 20 battle elixirs or 2 flasks and 4 charges of weapon oil for this raid, if you are unsure about which of the available consumables are best for this encounter/your class, I'll be happy to talk to you about it in tells BEFORE our raid time."
Reward good behavior! When you write a wall of text healing strat, hide an easter egg in it. "Whisper Auz the red dragon flys by night for a 10g prize." When someone blossoms under your tutelage praise them! When someone got that clutch heal and keeps the raid from a wipe puff up their little pixelated egos. When we were learning Kael, I went out one night and bought a bunch of cockroach pets, and at the end of the night I gave one to every player that didn't die before a wipe was called that night. I told my raid "Be the cockroach." When we killed him there were a bunch of cockroach pets running around the raid like a badge of honor.
Over recruit - Your healers have no motivation to do what you ask them if they know you have to take them regardless of their behavior, enchanting, gemming, etc. I keep a mental note of how many healers I need for the average encounter and make sure I have enough healers on staff to sit 1 or 2 a night. This allows me to maintain flexibility in healing composition, sit tired raiders and occasionally say "I see you're having trouble getting that new weapon enchanted so I'm going to sit you tonight to make sure you have the time to farm for those enchanting mats"
Yes, I know I'm a carebear, but what can I say, I'm a female priest so if you change my assignment I might get confused. Also, it works for my guild.
Last edited by Auzara : 05/30/08 at 1:03 PM.
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05/30/08, 5:39 PM
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#56
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Auzara
The best way to get respect from your healers is to give it, and to be a resource of information. We don't have any way to pay these people other than shiny epics, so I find positive re-enforcement works better than berating. Set yourself up to be their mentor and personal coach rather than their boss.
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I would agree with this statement. Although I am not a healer, I am the priest CO for my guild and have an alt resto druid, so I've generally been helping with priest and druid healers when needed and keep up with the theorycrafting threads. Whenever there is something that needs improvement, I tend to ask the healer to explain why they were doing what they were doing so I can get an understanding of their mindset and how best to approach them to improve. For example, when we were doing FLK in SSC a long time ago, one of our priest apps was spamming Flash Heal and going OOM. I asked her why she was doing it, and then we had a discussion of her trying Greater Heal for the next raid. I find it's always best to ask them to explain their thought process before barging in with suggestions, unless it's something that is very simple to fix. For example, one of our druids would let lifebloom "bloom" on the tank when the tank got low because the druid thought it would be "extra heal", and we explained why that was not the case. A discussion really helps with healers because often, there may be a misunderstanding or misconception of how something works, and fixing that underlying misunderstanding works much better than an order to the healer telling them what to do.
Being flexible and letting the healers learn from experience is also something that can work out well. Our Improved DS priest recently asked if he could try a 41/20/0 spec because he did not feel he was very effective at the cookie cutter 23/38/0 spec. I was quite dubious about the merits of a Discipline spec, but agreed to let him try it out for a BT raid. After trying it, he was back with the standard 23/38/0 spec for the next raid.
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05/31/08, 7:07 AM
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#57
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King Hippo
Human Paladin
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
Personally I think that leading things as if you were playing Raiding Guild Manager 2008 can only end up in tragedy for most serious guilds
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I don't know how any guild can progress past Maiden without its members following instructions, let alone call themselves "serious". If you tell A, B and C to heal the MT and B says he'd rather heal the raid, he needs to be told to do the job he's been given. You don't have to be the Gestapo about it, and there's nothing wrong with being open to suggestions, but in the end you're the leader and your word is final.
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05/31/08, 9:12 AM
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#58
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Bald Bull
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You don't have to be the Gestapo about it, and there's nothing wrong with being open to suggestions, but in the end you're the leader and your word is final
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Not all of us are talking about bleeding edge progression fights here. Thats, of course, where someone in control dictates who does what. However on the relaxing, night off farm content (bt. hyjal etc etc) its nice to afford some flexibility and let people make their own choices, 'Who wants to do X tonight?'.
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05/31/08, 9:53 AM
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#59
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Emerald Dream (EU)
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Actually, I am talking about bleeding edge content. However, I was not really talking about the end result assignments that need to be done on every raid encounter, but more about the process that leads up to them.
On farm content everybody knows what the guild tactic is for a given encounter and everyone knows which roles they will likely be expected to fill. You could potentially just omit assignments altogether and things might just work out.
However, on progression content especially, we tend to rely heavily on the expertise and knowledge of the people we have in our raid to give feedback on what happens to them in a fight and assignments are a rather organic thing that can change from one moment to another. Even though this isn't quite the same situation as people refusing to perform basic assignments, the militant way of thinking that Malleus displayed in the piece I quoted made it seem to me that he's the kind of raidleader (or the kind of person who expects his raidleader..) that basically just plays his own game when working on an encounter and uses the other 24 people as his playing pieces. Which is obviously something that stands rather far from my own comfort zone, hence my objection to the form.
This might just be a simple misunderstanding however.
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05/31/08, 10:51 AM
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#60
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King Hippo
Human Paladin
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
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Originally Posted by Dynalisia
However, on progression content especially, we tend to rely heavily on the expertise and knowledge of the people we have in our raid to give feedback on what happens to them in a fight and assignments are a rather organic thing that can change from one moment to another. Even though this isn't quite the same situation as people refusing to perform basic assignments, the militant way of thinking that Malleus displayed in the piece I quoted made it seem to me that he's the kind of raidleader (or the kind of person who expects his raidleader..) that basically just plays his own game when working on an encounter and uses the other 24 people as his playing pieces. Which is obviously something that stands rather far from my own comfort zone, hence my objection to the form.
This might just be a simple misunderstanding however.
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Oh, no, it's a very complicated misunderstanding. There's a good quote from Cerebus that kind of sums it up:
The biggest thing you have to do is stop listening to people, except when they are telling you facts. As soon as they start saying opinions, you should stop listening. [...] It's like five guys out in the woods, and three of them say "So-and-so should be leader". Okay? Okay. Now you've settled it. When so-and-so says "As leader, I think we should go this way", you don't stop and argue. That's why you made him leader.
After you vote, you should shut up and do as you're told [...] otherwise, nothing gets done.
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Now that's perhaps a little bit extreme. Of course as a raiding leader you should get feedback from your raiders. OTOH, once you've devised a plan then everyone needs to follow it unless it's obvious that you've missed something important.
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