Actually, I think the problem is the exact opposite of what you're saying. If this scenario you pose is the way it ends up being, there is absolutely no reason to ever bring the rogue. As you've said, the shaman brings so much more utility, and it's never bad to have backups for your raid buffs in case one of the primary buffers dies. So you get all that extra flexibility and security, and you only drop a ridiculously small bit of DPS! Why ever think of bringing the rogue?
This is, at least, the argument all the rogues are making, and it's what I'm personally agreeing with (as both my rogue, my druid, and my shaman). My rogue is the least versatile, least useful in a raid, and least flexible. If the other classes bring nearly the same DPS as a rogue, AS A RAID LEADER, I simply won't bring any. And I'm a rogue saying that.
If you look at your class and your buffs seem lacking, uninteresting or underpowered, it's probably because they haven't been updated yet. In the past our design was more that there are classes that bring buffs but have lower dps, and classes with high dps but fewer buffs. While not every class will end up at exactly the same dps, we can bring things a lot closer together. Rogues, mages and hunters can end up with good buffs that fit their kit. Poisons are a great angle for rogues, though not the only one.
...
And if I didn't say it clearly enough, rogues and any other class that feels they don't currently bring enough synergy to the raid will get be getting new or modified abilities to fill that role. The idea is to back down a little from: I have crazy buffs but that's really it, or I have mad dps, but that's pretty much it.
If your primary buffer is dying on a regular basis enough for you to worry about our having to pack a security backup, you'll be facing more problems than raid makeup issues. I can see where historically pure DPS classes are coming from with that kind of arguement, but it's equally arguable the opposite way around: pack the most optimal raid buffs into your raid first from the least possible number of utility classes with the highest raid contribution (ie most suitable tanks / highest DPS utility / most effective healers), then stack the rest of the raid with whatever highest DPSer happens to the most effective for the fight - Rogues / Warlocks / Hunters / Mages.
Looking at it the second way around ensures there's no room for that Retadin if you have a Frost Mage and Shadowpriest or Survival Hunter - your mana needs are already fulfilled, and say you've already got a Deathknight tanking for your haste buffing. Taking a Rogue there would be a net increase in raid DPS with no downside at all. This is especially relevant in light of 'most' buffs going raid wide - Rogues have traditionally got the short end of the stick (in fact, most pure DPS classes) with the 'old fashioned' 5 man party. When classes need windfury, battleshout and leader of the pack (or totem of wrath, a shadowpriest and a boomkin) to output their highest numbers, there's really only room in each 5 man group for 2 pure DPS classes. Thats certainly no longer the case at all - we can almost chuck any class anywhere in the raid, and they'll still get full benefit from pretty much everything they need (probably only missing out on bloodlust as the potential deal breaker).
As an aside - with regards to dispelling / cleansing etc, it really is only mass dispel now which sticks out like a sore thumb - and even then, we have Discipline, Holy and Shadow priests capable of performing that function. I'm not sure I'd want to see such a reliance on a single spell from a single class happen again as strongly as it has in Sunwell though. Decursing is just about bearable (heh) coming from Mages and Druids (and soon Shamen as well).
How many backups do you need? Fair enough, have one backup or even two for if X person dies. If you have more than two or three people dead, you have problems that raid synergies alone won't fix.
Let's say there are 12 different buffs you want in the raid, and each of the "buffing" classes can grant 3 of those (e.g. fury warrior is -armor, +crit chance and +AP, enhance shaman is +haste, +AP and +Str/Agi, warlock is +magic damage, -armor and +health - etc). With ~3 buffs per buff class, and 12 buffs wanted per raid, that means that by the time your raid is even half full, you have every different buff covered three times over and can bring who the heck you like in the last 13 places.
Numbers on the above will be a bit off, but you see the principle. The missing pieces in the puzzle are that (a) each class should contribute some subset of buffs/debuffs (and GC has said they're looking at rogues for this, e.g poisons), and (b) each class should do comparable DPS once all the buffs/debuffs are in place within the raid.
Note that rogues aren't actually useless for utility even as it stands - we can do -armor with Expose (not used much if warriors are tanking, but that's easily changed), slow casting with mind-numbing poison, slow movement speed with crippling poison, and interrupt with kick. They could easily add that rundown to their list of "assumed buffs". Give us a poison that increases magic damage, or make Find Weakness into a raidwide buff, or put a haste buff in combat somewhere... lots of possibilities.
Frankly, I'm *really* excited by the direction Blizzard are taking - means you can build your raid group around people rather than specs. For a low-commitment raidgroup with ~50% average attendance, the current setup is hell on a stick. It is utterly impossible to optimise your group makeup at all. Let's say you want to ensure there's a moonkin on the raid. What do you do? Well, if the average attendance is 50%, you need to recruit two, right? Wrong, because then you have both of them signing up 25% of the time, and on 25% of your raids you still don't have one. Rinse and repeat for any of the "essential" specs like enhancement shaman, and so on. Usually we can make ~3 optimised groups, sometimes 4, but the 5th is always a fruit salad of "whatever's left over". And that won't cut it on Brutallus. The current system is utterly impossible to work with at the high end unless you have a team with 80% raid attendance, so you can plan your recruitment around a known group composition.
My guild is currently trying to wrestle with the optimization of the Leader of the Pack (LOTP) buff.
As of now, the melee group automatically gets it. This group consists of:
Feral Druid
Combat Rogue
Ret Pally
Fury Warrior
Enhance Shammy
This guild has 1 full time Feral Druid so the hunters weep as we get bounced around in random groups praying one of the melee isn't going to be here tonight.
I ran some numbers on some different class dps spreadsheets though and it would seem that the classes that gain the most benefit from the LOTP buff are the Fury Warrior and the BM Hunter. We have 3 Full time BM Hunters.
Is it more optimal to the LOTP in with the hunters in their own group or to leave it with the melee? Where has the LOTP buff found its best optimization in a raid group?
My guild is currently trying to wrestle with the optimization of the Leader of the Pack (LOTP) buff.
As of now, the melee group automatically gets it. This group consists of:
Feral Druid
Combat Rogue
Ret Pally
Fury Warrior
Enhance Shammy
This guild has 1 full time Feral Druid so the hunters weep as we get bounced around in random groups praying one of the melee isn't going to be here tonight.
I ran some numbers on some different class dps spreadsheets though and it would seem that the classes that gain the most benefit from the LOTP buff are the Fury Warrior and the BM Hunter. We have 3 Full time BM Hunters.
Is it more optimal to the LOTP in with the hunters in their own group or to leave it with the melee? Where has the LOTP buff found its best optimization in a raid group?
Do you only have one rogue? Leave it with the melee if you have no melee to replace it. Otherwise, a 2nd rogue in there and the feral druid with the hunters would be best.
Druid Aura's are planned to go raid wide in wotlk.
This is, at least, the argument all the rogues are making, and it's what I'm personally agreeing with (as both my rogue, my druid, and my shaman). My rogue is the least versatile, least useful in a raid, and least flexible. If the other classes bring nearly the same DPS as a rogue, AS A RAID LEADER, I simply won't bring any. And I'm a rogue saying that.
Though it remains to be seen how much an issue this will end up being, remember that BoSalv is now limited duration and targeted, so rogues will also have a threat mitigation advantage over most other dps classes because of our passive threat mitigation, resist-free threat dump, and (currently crappy, but better than nothing) threat reducing ability.
That's the problem with this setup. If you can cover all your wanted buffs with 11 players, then you have to choose which DPS classes you're going to bring. If rogues do considerably more damage than any other class because of their lack of utility, then you're going to stack rogues. If rogues do very comparable damage despite their lack of utility, then people will avoid rogues because bringing another class with buffs at least means that you're gearing them up so that in case one of your original 11 can't make it, there's someone who can cover those buffs, instead of just a stabby DPS.
What needs to happen to rogues and other low-utility classes in my opinion, is the same thing that's happened to other classes with buffs. You first need a mechanism in place to ensure that their contribution is marginalized after you have a couple of them in your raid. Then you can start raising DPS to account for their lack of group utility.
IE:
Say a buffing class can do 2000 DPS, and a rogue can do 2600 DPS. Assume the buffs are powerful enough that if you don't have them, you would consider bringing the buffing class or the rogue about equally.
Now say you get all of your requisite buffs using 11 players, obviously the 2600 DPS rogue is what you would want to fill the rest of your raid with.
The best way to work this to make it friendly to rogues and hybrids alike would be to drop the average dps of rogues somehow, whether through buffs, debuffs, or some other mechanic, such that with 1 rogue, the rogue would be doing 2600 DPS, with 2 rogues, they would be doing 2300 dps average, and with 3+ rogues, they would be doing 2000 DPS average.
That way you would really love to have a rogue, or even two in your group because of the DPS lead over other dps classes/specs, but after 2 rogues you might as well go with a different DPS class. You wouldn't ultimately be penalized for bringing rogues instead of other classes, assuming you had buffs otherwise covered, (as the rogues would be doing 2000 dps, and had you brought no rogues, and just other classes they would be doing 2000 dps as well) but their benefit is marginalized when you start stacking them (just like other classes).
The real issue with non-raid-buffing classes is exactly that. It's that their value remains static regardless of how many are with you. This means either they're so strong that they're stacked, or so average that they're ignored. And there's very little room for anything in between.
If rogues do very comparable damage despite their lack of utility, then people will avoid rogues because bringing another class with buffs at least means that you're gearing them up so that in case one of your original 11 can't make it, there's someone who can cover those buffs.
Really? Like I said, how many backups do you need? Say for the sake of argument that you have a feral tank, a fury warrior and an enhance shaman in the raid, any one of whom can cover the "+ melee crit" buff slot (I know shamans currently don't, this is a thought exercise). Assume that a fury warrior does the same damage as a rogue. Now, given that you've already covered that buff three times over - will you really take a second fury warrior instead of a rogue, just so you have a fourth copy of the non-stacking buff? I don't think so.
GC has said they're looking to rationalise/reduce the number of buffs to around about a dozen essential buffs per raid. Most of the buffing classes cover at least three of those. So in theory, with a perfect loadout, you only need 4 of your 25 raid slots to cover the lot. More realistically, you'll end up covering every buff slot three times over before the raid's even half full, and then you'll bring whoever you like for the last dozen places, because they'll all be doing very comparable damage, and you just don't need more backup on the buff side of things. That leaves you free to bring people depending on how good a player they are, not on whether they happen to be Irreplaceable Class <Foo>.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
This means either they're so strong that they're stacked, or so average that they're ignored.
"Average" won't be ignored, because you'll have a dozen average-sized slots in your raid after all the buffs are covered, and you'll want people to fill them! Besides, who says rogues will remain non-buffers forever?
GC has said they're looking to rationalise/reduce the number of buffs to around about a dozen essential buffs per raid. Most of the buffing classes cover at least three of those. So in theory, with a perfect loadout, you only need 4 of your 25 raid slots to cover the lot. More realistically, you'll end up covering every buff slot three times over before the raid's even half full, and then you'll bring whoever you like for the last dozen places, because they'll all be doing very comparable damage, and you just don't need more backup on the buff side of things. That leaves you free to bring people depending on how good a player they are, not on whether they happen to be Irreplaceable Class <Foo>.
Not quite - the quote was that they were able to cover the big buffs with as few as 11-12 people. The actual list of buffs they're considering big is unknown at this time.
It sounds like their design goal is to have every class/talent spec to bring at least one big buff/debuff, and then balance HPS/DPS/tanking around all the buffs being up. And by balance, I mean get everything close to equal to each other. So the rogue might be max-DPS, but not by their current margin. And it will probably be a margin that can be covered by merely upgrading a weapon or a few pieces of gear. But by the same token, the rogue will provide a raid buff/debuff that doesn't stack with another class.
I really have an issue with this "lets give every class a big buff and make it raid wide" that we are seeing. Are we not at the point where they may as well just get rid of all the buffs, evening out the DPS and allow us to just bring whoever the heck we want to a raid?? I know it may sound extreme, but if they are designing content around the fact they expect us all to have all these buffs then what's the point?? If Blizz wants to elminate the benefit of stacking, then logically the next step would be to fully open it up and not force us to bring a Noah's Arc two-of-every-class raid group.
I welcome changes that remove tedium and repetition from the game, but too many of these changes are just dumbing down an already fairly simple game.
Most of the new buffs we've seen seem to be a 5% increase in one core DPS stat or another. Rampage is 5% crit. Improved Windfury makes windfury totem 5% haste better than Icy Talons. A ret paladin's aura is 2% damage, 3% haste.
I'm assuming "big buff" means roughly 5% more of something to tanks, melee, ranged, or healers, or any buff that justifies a raid spot now. Buffs that overlap with other buffs don't count, so deathknight icy talons counts as 0% physical haste and enh shaman windfury totem counts as 5% haste. Based on that, the list of 11-12 people would look something like this:
2 warriors (battle shout and possibly rampage or blood frenzy, commanding shout/sunder)
1-2 warlocks (CoR, possibly CoE if deathknight doesn't provide Ebon Plague)
1 spriest (misery)
1 deathknight (icy talons - 10% caster haste better than WoA totem; possibly ebon plague or abom's might)
1 enh shaman (imp windfury - 5% melee haste better than icy talons; unleashed rage if not covered by the DK; value of bloodlust depends on the boss)
1 ele shaman (ToW; value of bloodlust depends on the boss)
1 moonkin (imp moonkin form)
1 surv hunter (imp hunter's mark + EW + hunting party)
1 ret paladin (sanctified retribution + swift retribution)
1 resto druid (tree of life)
Basically it's an optimal TBC raid but with a moonkin and a deathknight instead of more shamans, locks, and spriests.
EDIT: As pope master pointed out this list is missing a second paladin. So 12-13 buffers total.
EDIT 2: This is outdated. See the post 3 below this one.
Last edited by Lujaar : 08/31/08 at 2:08 PM.
"What the poet laments holds for the mathematician. That he writes his works with the blood of his heart."
– Ludwig Boltzmann
I really have an issue with this "lets give every class a big buff and make it raid wide" that we are seeing. Are we not at the point where they may as well just get rid of all the buffs, evening out the DPS and allow us to just bring whoever the heck we want to a raid?? I know it may sound extreme, but if they are designing content around the fact they expect us all to have all these buffs then what's the point?? If Blizz wants to elminate the benefit of stacking, then logically the next step would be to fully open it up and not force us to bring a Noah's Arc two-of-every-class raid group.
I welcome changes that remove tedium and repetition from the game, but too many of these changes are just dumbing down an already fairly simple game.
I wouldn't say its dumbing down as much as "making it even"...A guild that can field 5 Shaman is going to have a significantly easier time on Brutallus learning, given equal skill, than a guild that has 2. Is that fair? Why does the encounter not stand better on its own merits, why is it "cheesed" with the stacking of a class.
This won't eliminate stacking in a literal sense, such as if an encounter is range friendly and a guild can field 10 hunters, ect..but what it will do is make it possible for guilds to have a "more even" shot at those encounters without a set number of "essential" classes.
Like they said, top guilds will stack for optimal performance on any fight..All this is doing is lowering the need for stacking on a more "general level". IE..Stacking might provide a positive benefit, but it won't be *so large* that it seems like a negative if you don't.
Looks like there is an answer to what stacks and what doesn't, and how its going to work.
Blue...
As Ghostcrawler has been posting recently, we've decided to make a change in the way we allow buffs and debuffs to stack exclusively in a raid. For the most part, what this change means is that many buffs and debuffs which were previously allowed to stack together no longer can, and that many buffs and debuffs which only a single talent specialization could bring can now be brought by multiple different specializations. The philosophy behind this change shows up in many of the changes we have made in Wrath of The Lich King, such as when we made almost all buffs raid-wide. We want players to be able to form raids and parties based on who they want to play with, rather than who has the correct talents and abilities to min-max their raid performance. Raid composition will still matter to some extent, but without this change, it would have overwhelmed every other aspect of raid planning (as we added new capabilities to each of 30 different talent trees). You no longer need to rigidly control the melee/spellcaster balance of your raid, or make sure every group has all the critical buffing classes, etc. This change has many class balance implications. Before we are done, we will thoroughly test the performance of every class. Do not assume that the classes' current performance relative to others in the beta is final. Some classes (and specializations) will need to be reduced in power and some increased. Many will complain the change has more impact on class X than class Y. We will address all those concerns via our internal testing and community feedback.
Ok, given that preamble, here is a comprehensive list of the changes which were made. If testers find additional changes not documented, or additional changes that need to be made ("Hey, buff XYZ got left out of the plan!"), please post and we will investigate.
There are thirty or so different categories buffs and debuffs fit into, and I will list each category and which spells/talents are in that category.
Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness
Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
Melee Haste Buff: Improved Icy Talons, Windfury Totem
Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage
Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might
Attack Power Buff (Multiplier): Abomination's Might, Trueshot Aura, Unleashed Rage
Ranged Attack Power Buff: Hunter's Mark (only Hunters benefit, so no need to exclude against other class abilities)
Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma
Spell Haste Buff: Wrath of Air Totem
Spell Critical Strike Chance Buff: Moonkin Aura, Elemental Oath
Spell Critical Strike Chance Debuff: Improved Scorch, Winter's Chill
Increased Spell Damage Taken Debuff: Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of the Elements
Increased Spell Power Buff: Focus Magic, Improved Divine Spirit, Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact
Increased Spell Hit Chance Taken Debuff: Improved Faerie Fire, Misery
Percentage Haste Increase (All Types): Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution
Percentage Damage Increase: Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution
Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (All types): Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath
Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap
Melee Hit Chance Reduction Debuff: Insect Swarm, Scorpid Sting
Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks
Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout
Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings
Stat Add Buff: Mark of the Wild
Agility and Strength Buff: Strength of Earth Totem, Horn of Winter
Stamina Buff: Power Word: Fortitude
Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact
Intellect Buff: Arcane Intellect, Fel Intelligence
Spirit Buff: Divine Spirit, Fel Intelligence
Damage Reduction Percentage Buff: Grace, Blessing of Sanctuary
Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff: Tree of Life, Improved Devotion Aura
Armor Increase Percentage Buff: Inspiration, Ancestral Healing
Cast Speed Slow: Curse of Tongues, Slow, Mind-numbing Poison.
In each category, you can only benefit from the most powerful spell granting that effect. For example, Fel Intelligence grants Spirit and Intellect, both weaker than Arcane Intellect and Divine Spirit. If a player has Fel Intelligence and receives a stronger Arcane Intellect buff, he will gain the intellect value from Arcane Intellect and the Spirit value from Fel Intelligence.
In most cases, fully-talented players will have exactly equal power on the strength of these buffs and debuffs. Fel Intelligence is an example of where one ability is weaker than others. The buffs in the "Increased Spell Power Buff" category are also not all the same potency, as they scale in grow in radically different ways. In virtually every other case, however, the buffs are equal. This means, for example, that fully-talented Battle Shout and Blessing of Might now grant the exact same amount of Attack Power.
In addition to this change, we also needed to address the "mana battery" roles in a raid. The mana regeneration effect they grant is no longer limited to their own party, and it no longer depends on the amount of damage they deal. Each time they trigger the mana regeneration effect, 10 people in their raid group will receive a buff which causes them to regenerate 0.5% of their maximum mana each second. This buff, Replenishment, will be given preferentially to raid members with the lowest mana, but will re-evaluate which raid members receive it each time it is fired. Replenishment is provided by Shadow Priests, Survival Hunters, and Retribution Paladins.
Finally, we have modified Heroism and Bloodlust to affect the entire raid. However, all affected raid members will be unable to cast or benefit from Bloodlust/Heroism for 5 minutes.
I will also list the changes to abilities which exhibit new behavior regardless of the exclusive categories. The changes usually mean the old behavior was removed and replaced by the new behavior. Numbers listed are for maximally-talented versions. Here is that changelist:
Improved Scorch: Increases spell critical strike chance against the target.
Winter's Chill: Also increases spell critical strike chance against the target.
Elemental Oath: Grants 5% spell crital strike to raid members.
Improved Moonkin Aura: Grants 3% haste of all types.
Earth and Moon: Increases spell damage taken from all schools by 13% on the target.
Misery: Causes spells cast at the target to have +3% spell hit.
Shadow Weaving: Buffs only self.
Improved Shadow Bolt: Buffs only self.
Expose Weakness: Buffs only self.
Shadow Embrace: Buffs only self.
Blood Pact: Grants health instead of Stamina.
Fel Intelligence: Has replacement ranks that grant flat values of Intellect and Spirit.
Frost Aura: Excludes properly against all other resistance buffs.
Grace: Reduces damage taken by target by 3%.
Rampage: Increases melee and ranged critical strike chance by 5% for the raid.
Improved Faerie Fire: No longer benefits melee and ranged hit chance, only spell hit.
Hunter's Mark: No longer increases attack power bonus from attacks against the target.
Improved Hunter's Mark: No longer grants melee attack power.
Sting (Hunter pet): Now acts as a minor armor debuff.
Waylay: Attack speed reduction changed to 20%.
Icy Touch: Only slows melee attack speed (not ranged or spell).
Tree of Life: No longer grants healing based on spirit, grants 3% increased healing received to raid.
Demonic Pact: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.
Focus Magic: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.
Totem of Wrath: Now grants a flat amount of spell damage, and all enemies in its radius have an increased chance of being struck by criticals.
Heroism: Cannot be recast while caster has Exhausted debuff, and those with Exhausted debuff cannot be affected by it.
Bloodlust: Cannot be recast while caster has Sated debuff, and those with Sated debuff cannot be affected by it.
Vampiric Touch: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage.
Hunting Party: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on specified shots.
Judgements of the Wise: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.
End blue.
Edit:
I wonder how things like leader of the pack vs rampage will work? If someone has improved leader of the pack, then does that work over rampage because its better, even though the "base" buff increases the crit% by the same amount. Same question for improved moonkin Aura. There seems to be some edges here on certain buffs, I guess the same system that addresses debuff priority will address buff priority. Also, certain classes were left being the only ones buffing certain things...Namely, Kings, Spell haste, Mark of the wild, Fort..I wonder if these will have clones outside of their primary class, I would assume no, since they notated that blood frenzy would be cloned by another class. It just seems a little odd to overlook those 4 buffs out of all those categories.
Oh, and I'm guessing there will be some type of cool down on abilities that activate replenishment (Though I don't know how that works with VT..) or is it their intention to only require one mana battery? (If there is a cool down, to cover all 25 consistently, you would need 2-3, depending on the CD.)
I wonder how things like leader of the pack vs rampage will work? If someone has improved leader of the pack, then does that work over rampage because its better, even though the "base" buff increases the crit% by the same amount. Same question for improved moonkin Aura. There seems to be some edges here on certain buffs, I guess the same system that addresses debuff priority will address buff priority.
It's clearly stated that the stronger buff/debuff has priority so (improved) leader of the pack should work.
About disc priests: grace lowered to 3% reduction and the imp. DS effect given to 3 other specs is a pretty big change, I'm guessing more changes will be coming to make up for it but still this is going to shake things up a bit.
LotP affects melee and ranged crit, but rampage is only melee crit and has limited range. Currently LotP is the superior buff (and it also heals with talents) unless they change rampage.
I see alot of problems attached to that kind of system.
For example, why would anyone prefer battle shout over Might? You just can't compare a pre cast buff to a short range buff you have to renew during combat, which costs rage as well. And then again, why would you prefer rampage to LotP? On top of it, why would you lose a combat res. and innervate to get a fury instead, assuming fury and feral gonna have the same dps roughly.
Another issue is that, some people realized how pointless a buff like salvation is long time ago. The main problem with salvation was, that everyone had it. You just wouldn't raid without salvation. If a "buff" is present no matter what, why have it at all? This is a serious design weakness. Finally blizzard (perhaps) realized this and remove the buff. Now, what's the point of "buffing" at all, if no matter how you make a raid setup, you will have everything? Really, from the looks of it, it's actually damn hard to miss a buff now, in a 25 man setup at least.
On top of this, you are taking control away from leaders in such a system. Why if someone wants heroism on melee now but not on healers, but then on healers in 2 mins? What if you want the mana to go to your healers instead of your hunter that somehow managed to burn it, cause the next phase gonna be really heal heavy? Lack of control and boring, this.
I really hope blizzard doesn't dumb 25 man raiding down way too much with such a system in place.
I really hope blizzard doesn't dumb 25 man raiding down way too much with such a system in place.
People asked for solutions to prevent "raid stacking", and here they get what they want. People are always going to min/max and stack certain buffs/debuffs that are more powerful than others, if you give them that freedom. Solution #1, make some buffs/debuffs equal (more equal), Solution #2, limit amount of buffs/debuffs.
I'm not exacly sure about other aspects of this change, but at least mana batteries will lose a lot of their effectiveness after 1-2 such in raid.
People asked for solutions to prevent "raid stacking", and here they get what they want.
Again, how is this stopping raid-stacking? From looking over that list I saw 5-7 of the categories that a single Balance Druid could cover on his own. By making all these abilities less unique they're opening up the possibility of folks bringing just enough in the raid to cover every debuff/buff and then fill in the rest of your raid with the current top-theorycrafting dps class. This isn't solving the problem of raid-stacking at all, just shifting it in a different direction.
It's clearly stated that the stronger buff/debuff has priority so (improved) leader of the pack should work.
About disc priests: grace lowered to 3% reduction and the imp. DS effect given to 3 other specs is a pretty big change, I'm guessing more changes will be coming to make up for it but still this is going to shake things up a bit.
Its not really clear, though..The base values are the same, 5% crit, improved leader has something else attached which makes it better. The example given showed a clearly inferior buff vs a superior one, the base numbers were different.
Do players get both buffs and one simply works? Or do these buffs block each other from being applied? If its the former, it doesn't really matter..if its the later, I guess the code would have to be altered to account for talent increases, even if those increases aren't passive effects?
Also, as someone else said..Buffs having the same values is an inadequate measuring stick of their worth, the example of might vs battle shout is good..I don't really expect them to be able to address that however, save perhaps to extend the range of auras or aura "like" buffs.
Again, how is this stopping raid-stacking? From looking over that list I saw 5-7 of the categories that a single Balance Druid could cover on his own. By making all these abilities less unique they're opening up the possibility of folks bringing just enough in the raid to cover every debuff/buff and then fill in the rest of your raid with the current top-theorycrafting dps class. This isn't solving the problem of raid-stacking at all, just shifting it in a different direction.
Aaand, thats a problem with numbers and class specific performance. Healers solved it by bringing the same thing (death prevention) in different forms. I'd say it's easier to solve problem of numbers than problem of mechanics.
Now the real question becomes, "Does your class offer raid something else than a gimmick buff?" Or was the buff only reason why YOU were taken into raid? First things that comes into my mind is need for single target and AoE dps. You can't exacly bring 15 melee either, it will cause problems with spreading out and long range dps. How about an encounter with silence effect or extremely high spell resistances, when you have 15 casters?
Now the real question becomes, "Does your class offer raid something else than a gimmick buff?" Or was the buff only reason why YOU were taken into raid? First things that comes into my mind is need for single target and AoE dps. You can't exacly bring 15 melee either, it will cause problems with spreading out and long range dps. How about an encounter with silence effect or extremely high spell resistances, when you have 15 casters?
So you stack per-encounter then, rather than per-zone?
Don't dismiss it, it's a very valid concern. I see how this perfectly solves the problems for 10-man raids and it seems a good solution. It seems very rife with problems from a 25-man standpoint, particularly for classes/specs that were basically defined by their buffs/debuffs (spriest/affliction warlock spring to my mind, given my caster bias; there are probably others.)
So is pvp balancing: spriests need their dps upped dramatically -- how will that impact pvp? There's probably other examples here as well.
I'm wondering how they will balance certain perks that classes give (like Soulstone, Combat Res, Innervate) other then these buffs mentioned in the blue post. If all the classes are supposed to do equal dps noone will mind a 7th soulstone when learning fights and noone will mind a 9th combat res when learning a fight (taking it to the extremes here, but you get the idea). This also goes for the classes who give mana back to the raid up to the point where mana isn't really a problem anymore.
On top of that I also find that the raidbuffs are quite unevenly spread amongst the classes at the moment. Some classes like Rogue hardly bring anything and then you have Paladins who are listed on eight of the buffs/debuffs.
Again, how is this stopping raid-stacking? From looking over that list I saw 5-7 of the categories that a single Balance Druid could cover on his own. By making all these abilities less unique they're opening up the possibility of folks bringing just enough in the raid to cover every debuff/buff and then fill in the rest of your raid with the current top-theorycrafting dps class. This isn't solving the problem of raid-stacking at all, just shifting it in a different direction.
My guess is that their next intention is to bring DPS specs to within parity, and give more of the 'core' buff/debuffs to Rogues (with Fury getting Melee/Ranged Crit, +AP, and Healing Debuff, my money is on rogues getting +physical damage poisons).
08/23/08, 8:14 PM
Similar Threads
