Agreed. Blizzard wants MORE people to raid. Raiding costs gold, and they want as many people raiding as they can get. Even if it is only 2 nights a week, they would rather see people raiding, not hitting up the 5 mans. It also allows more people to see more content. Having to depend on certain classes to raid is a drag for guilds that do not raid much.

Sure, it is a good thing to not be required to bring certain specs to raid for their buffs. But it isn't difficult to figure out which spec to choose for a buff will best help the raid. It is whichever class loses the least potential personal DPS/ The problem is though, what will be the difference between the guilds who min/max talents for buffing and those who do not? Clearly micro-managing buffs/talents at that level can lead to a potential dps increase, but how much will it be? If there difference becomes too great then blizzard will need to adjust to that standard and we are back to where we are now.


Another, unrelated problem is, how do you make players aware that their buff does not stack? Obviously most raiders will figure it out because their knowledge of the game extends outside of the WoW client. For somebody just starting out though it isn't going to be so obvious that their awesome buff they have been using to solo stuff for is now worthless in a group because somebody else is covering that buff. You have things like this in the game allready and I have always thought they were not as obvious as the should be. The problem will be much wider spread now though.


Of course, the easiest solution to these problems, and it has been mentioned several time in this thread, is to make buffing talents provide the caster with some benefits if that buff is allready covered. It probably would make the most sense to simply give that buff to them in all situations (ie, somebody is covering the +AP buff, your +AP buff still effects you but only you). People still won't neccesarily be aware that their buffs do not stack, but it won't matter nearly as much. And any potential gain by skipping a buff will be made up in the benefit it still provides you.

We haven't seen much if anything on the "dual spec" idea since it was mentioned weeks ago.

How about this off-the-wall idea for implementation: while in an instance of any sort (or possibly just PvE instances, or possibly just raid instances), allow unlimited (and possibly free) out-of-combat respecs. Upon leaving the instances, you're set back to whatever spec you entered the instance with.

Benefits:
* You can respec on the fly as you go from boss to boss or even trash to trash, allowing chars to swap between tank/heal/dps roles (or even allowing "pure" classes to swap between specs) to meet varying demands of boss fights, without having to swap players or slow down the raid by having to return to IF each time to respec. Basically, it eases the balancing act between having variety in boss fights and fight requirements and having to swap players and/or toons and specs out. No more SWP wholesale player swap bullshit. It might even allow for a wider variety of instance design, since designers can anticipate the raid being more able to swap specs on the go if needed.
* Out of combat only, to minimize gimmick changes in fight, if desired.
* Useful in raids/instances without permanently affecting the outside game world.
* Toons can easily adjust to whatever their raid leader needs them to do, without worrying about respeccing back once the raid is over, or having multiple spec/respec cycles over the course of the week.
* Can't be abused to game free respeccing in the regular game world, assuming that this is desirable.
* Can be tuned to allow pvp/bg/arena respecs or not.
* Can be tuned to allow 5-man/heroic respecs or not. (Can't see why you'd want to not do so.)
* Not artificially limited to two different specs, which is better than 1, but will still be annoying for people who have three or more roles, or who like to pve, pvp, and solo/grind.
* Encourages players to try a variety of specs and playstyles, enhancing (for some of them, anyway) their enjoyment of the game. I suppose this might also be a negative if RL's start requiring frequent shifts or edge case specs that are only useful for very small, very specific encounters.

Obviously, folks who don't like respeccing at all won't be happy with this proposal, but I'm starting from the assumption that some means of easier respeccing has been proposed. I'm assuming that their goal is twofold:
* Reduce the need for raids to swap players or toons in and out to meet boss fight demands, while not reducing the ability to have a variety of boss fight mechanics available to designers.
* Reduce the barriers for players who want to participate and excel in pve, pvp, and solo content.

That's just one small step from allowing unlimited respecs at all times, which we will never see. It seems extremely unlikely that they want to facilitate spec switching in instances to the point that they would have to design around it. I strongly suspect that the only thing we will see implemented is an alternate spec where you go to the same trainer, choose to switch to your alternate spec, and it doesn't cost you anything. Anything more radical than that risks defeating the purpose, which is to be more convenient and player friendly. The Sunwell player swap requirements was bad design that needs to not happen again, the last thing they should put in is something that actually encourages them to design that way.

I think that everyone who thinks about it should realize that SWP was designed FOR the current mechanics as a method of pushing the top end guilds. By no means was this designed as something for "general consuption" or would I take it as any indicator of future development.

All the talk about spec swapping should really be minimized by how homogenized they are making the classes. They are going to great lengths to ensure diminishing returns to stacking classes and also all the buffs/debuffs have been VERY liberally spread around.
Having 2 spec's you can swap between would be more then enough for most people, as it would permit a PvE and a PvP... or for those who don't PvP it could be different PvE roles. Either way it will ease a bit of the burden/tedium, and I think it's a good move.

Well, I agree with you somewhat, but they already design around it. Top end guilds will swap in and respec to whatever extent they think is optimal in order to kill bosses most quickly, because they have both the desire and the resources to do so. The result is that we get clusterfucks like SWP, designed to challenge toon and spec swapping guilds, that most other guilds cannot easily or reasonably attempt, because they do not have the desire or resources to do so.

I don't agree that more than just a simple spec swap "defeats the purpose" (and I tried to inventory what I thought "the purpose" was). I agree that any implementation must be convenient and player friendly.

I certainly don't agree that, a priori, we should be discouraging the design of encounters that require different sorts of accomodation than those used to date, particularly if we are also given convenient and friendly ways to rise to the occasion.

Do you have some attribution to back up this claim? Historically, Blizzard has not had this sort of belief or desire for any of their raid instances, and lamented it so much the last time it happened (Naxx) that they've repurposed it and will be re-releasing it.

Moreover, Blizzard has, to date, gone to absolutely no lengths to ensure diminishing returns for stacked classes - the only diminishing return I am aware of is that gearing will take longer, and that is intrinsic to the loot mechanic that has been in place for some time, not to any change made concurrent with the recent "homogenization" of buffs and debuffs. Buff homogenization also does nothing to address an instance where your raid comp needs 7 healers for one boss and 10 for the next, or 1 tank for one boss and 5 for the next.

Finally, perhaps this is just selection bias, but I know a large number of players who have three different specs they play (pve, pvp, and solo/grinding). I don't really agree that 2 is enough for "most people", though I don't have anything other than anecdote to back it up.

Allowing respeccing at any time and point by point would probably be an improvement most people would agree with. It still amazes me that there is no confirmation for adding talent points, and once you use an add-on like Talented you see how poor the basic ingame system really is. Being able to move points here and there as you see fit would certainly be convenient, and would allow you to do things like tell the pug tank you just grouped with how to spec out of epically stupid and into something more useful.

That said, it's a pipe dream like getting rid of soul shards. It's such a fundamental aspect of the game that it seems very unlikely they would get rid of it. I can see them giving a PvP spec that your character automatically switches to when you zone into a BG or arena. Maybe an instance/raid spec that works the same way. You could even break it down further, so you get one world spec, one party spec, one raid spec, one BG spec, and one Arena spec. Each spec would activate at the appropriate time. You would then pay your fee to the trainer to change each one of them specifically. Of course a system like that doesn't help Hybrids at all, so you'd probably need a backup choice for each slot as well. At that point we're at 10 specs per character, which is getting into silly land again. There just doesn't seem to be a good balance point between unlimited respeccing and the current system.

Why not just use a similar system to what Guild Wars started with: you play the game and get XP; every XYZ XP, you get a respec point. Add in the ability to purchase respec points and you have a vastly imprved system that allows some respeccing for free but still acts as a sink if you want to respec more often.

How about the ability to respec without going to a trainer? It still costs money to respec, but you can do it on the spot. Couple this with an improved UI and system for changing your spec (let me create and save specs and choose them from a pull down menu, confirmation, not rebuy spells/fix bars, etc.).

Seems like that would be the easiest solution, no?

edit: and, assuming they do not raise the cost, gold inflation will pretty much make the price pointless. You could theoretically then just do away with the cost, or at least provide 1 free respec a day.

If spec swap has 12 hour cooldown, or something large like that, then it's ot so bad.

With regards to SWP... I think anyone can reason that this place was meant to challenge those who had been Illidan farming for months. At the time of it's release there was a HUGE gap between those guilds and those stuck at 3/4 TK 5/6 SSC who couldn't kill Vashj/Kael. Blizz removed the attunements and while those T5 guilds have moved into T6 content, they are still on the whole not going to see (much less progress) into SWP. Even if they manage to kill Illidan they won't have much time to farm the gear to suceeed. I see SWP as an attempt by Blizz to bridge content from TBC to WoTLK as many people had reached end game and the Xpack was no where near the horizon. Creating SWP and removing attunements bought Blizz 6 months + before people would be back complaining.

As for diminishing returns, I think you are overlooking what made shamman and warlocks so desirable. For the most part, those reasons have been minimized or eliminated. Your comment about the requirements for specific roles in an encounter (Tank/Heal/DPS) actually has been addressed. While it won't be "optimal" by true min/max standards, they have made changes to things like Prot DPS and Hybrid/offspec Healing that should at make the drop off much easier to swallow.

How about paying a larger fee up front and then having unlimited respecs for a specific time period?

From what I have seen, Blizzard takes into account what is possible for players to organize to defeat an encounter, and tailors that encounter to require a unique set of abilities. The setup for this is unique in my MMO experience, which is not vast, as I only played Everquest seriously prior to WoW. In EQ, the boss encounters could be reduxxed to "When does it deathtouch (instakill)". In WoW, the encounters have been gloriously varied to keep them interesting, instead of stock "tank n spank" or simple gimmicks. Sure, there are still gimmicks, but they are not always simple.

The point is, if you allow players to switch specs at will, even if only out of combat, then you can bet your bottom dollar (yeah I said it) that Blizz will tailor at least one encounter to that effect, and have to tune ALL encounters to take it into account. If you allow a 12 hr cooldown, or at least SOME discouragement for swapping, as 50g has been doing since the game was created, then Blizz can happily maintain the status quo for encounter design.

Also keep in mind that devs to my knowledge do not want players to carry extra complete sets of gear for all occasions, as is evidenced through the itemization we have seen uniting some hybrid specs. Blizz has also stated frequently in the past that they want talents decision to have meaning and some permanency, though they have obviously laxxed that somewhat since day 1.

To address your specific complaints, a 12/18/24 hour cooldown is just the "free" swap. You could still attach a monetary compenent to respeccing at any moment, i.e. leave the trainers to do what they always have. If your raiders bitch because they "just" put on their farm/PvP spec, tell them to grow a pair and pay the piper, or just don't be a moron on raid nights and do things like that

This is true.
I don't agree with this. The reason being that re-speccing in Burning Crusade wasn't that hard anyway. Gold acquisition was FAR easier and as such, the people who would go the distance, already had the capabilities to do so. Gurgthock put it best earlier on this year, when he said that people aren't playing specs anymore, they're playing classes. All it takes is a portal to Shattrath, a quick respec, and a summon back into the instance to continue on. Yes, it's a time sink, but aside from that, there isn't much more to it.

If Blizzard wanted to, they already could design content based around this, and they HAVE. Sunwell Plateau is the perfect example of this. You go from one encounter to the next, almost required to swap around your raid composition to meet the challenges. Kalecgos requires more healers, an extra tank depending on your strategy and decursers. Move onto Brutallus, and you need to drop those healers and drop down to two tanks and stack DPS. Felmyst needs a Protection Paladin and maybe another healer. Eredar Twins depends heavily on healers, so you need to stack those again and your Warlock now has to tank. M'uru makes you drop a bunch of those healers, bring on a couple more tanks and really stack your optimum DPS. And then Kil'Jaeden sort of adjusts your raid again.

The point is, if you look at Sunwell, it is a VERY versatile instance, with a lot of changing factors, from one fight to the next. This keeps the dungeon fun. And Blizzard only GAINS from the assumption that people can and will adjust their raid to each next encounter.

So in a nutshell, Blizzard can and already does operate under the impression that our raids are somewhat fluid. But unfortunately, it is more of a time sink right now for raiders. To go out of your way and do the respec and then come back and continue on. Dual specs is a huge step in the right direction. As long as you can't respec in combat, Blizzard doesn't really need to cater a boss fight to the idea. I can't see how you would anyway.

Naxxramas, seeing as how it was originally a hardcore raid, also will further complement the design choice. Going from Sapphiron to Kel'thuzad alone should require a slight adjustment. (Drop a healer or two, pick up a tank or two.) Hopping specs should help.

Well, there's another way to look at this.

1.) Blizzard already stated that they wanted to add some sort of item rack system to help people STORE Resistance gear. This would allow them to have it on them at all times, but it wouldn't take up inventory space. Blizzard is opening up inventory space all over the place. The new token system, the points and all, actually remove tokens from your bags. Keys, Mounts, etc. Add in "potion sickness" and you really don't have that much stuff taking up your bag space. What else are you going to fill it with?

2.) Bringing their gear together, actually supports this idea more. If they can consolidate stats so that each stat allocation is beneficial to a spec, interchangeability goes up tenfold. Your Holy Priest and Discipline like that spirit? And that Shadow Priest is still getting dmg bonuses from it? Great! Your Restoration Shaman can jump to Elemental? Your Resto druid can go from Restoration to Balance? Sure, there will be some swapping involved, but if anything, handling multiple specs just got easier. Most players already geared for more than one spec anyway, and now, there's just more effective ways to handle that.

3.) Yes, they want the decisions to have some meaning, but I always interpreted that as meaning "there's a bunch of good talents here, a bunch of good decisions. So good, that there's no cookie cutter, and you'll have to choose what you think best suits your playstyle and will help you optimize your character." I always saw it more as a design philosophy and goal, and a good one at that. But again, permanency is out the door, when it takes five minutes to go change your spec. (less if you know what you're doing.)

It's a matter of respeccing on the fly, at least I think that would make better sense. The details are worth discussing, but I think the implementation is pretty necessary. I wouldn't want a very high cooldown, though a small one could do. (Ten minutes or something.) Additionally, it could still have a monetary component or some sort of investment (like a quest or something to unlock the ability), but all that is debatable. It's all about the functionality and accessibility in the end.

Personally I am one of those who likes to play around with builds, always trying to find out how this or that works in practice. Therefore I really love the way Guild Wars handles talent trees. No respec costs allows me to maximize my builds. Many of the talent trees in WoW have lots of lackluster talents. Or talents which do work great in PvP but not so much in PvE or vice versa. But how do you find out? You have to pay for it. And the more you play around the more you have to pay. I never understood why players claim that fixed talent trees with a high fee for respec is a must for a RPG. If every talent in WoW was worthwhile, then, ok, then maybe. But, frankly, this is not the case. And with the upcoming buff changes things will get even more tricky. Not only do you have to care about your own performance, you also have to take group synergetic effects into consideration as well. In order to fine tune a raid composition one has to respec. Because talents in WoW are a major factor of how a class performes. Paying a fee for a respec is just highly counterproductive imho.

We'd like to avoid rehashing this arguement again, so I'll try to be brief and objective: you're looking at the issue only from a performance standpoint. The arguements against respec are from a design & gameplay standpoint: character identification and immersion. This is no longer the state of the game, but it was in vanilla WoW, and the talent changes in WLK look to be hoping to enable it again, by lowering the performance difference between flexible specs and squeeze-two-more-DPS-talents-cause-we-don't-need-blood-frenzy-today specs.

I like it. The only thing I can think of is to put in a (brief) summary of the talents gained/lost beside the name. For instance, under Ret, it still doesn't immediately connect for me what JotW gives until I look at the fact that it's replaced by Surv Hunters or SP's. Then my mind ticks on Replenishment. Other talents may be more or less visible, but especially with the new version of many buffs, a refresher may be worth it just for ease of use.

Other than that, it looks really great.

I believe that one of the new Rogue talents (in Assassination) covers the Heart of the Crusader effect as well now?

Master Poisoner - Spell - World of Warcraft

I really like the format you chosen but as earlier poster pointed out a quick buff description probably is a must.
If/When you finish this it would definatly be well suited for a Think Tank topic/post and I hope me sugesting this can motivate you to seeing it thru and doing all the needed linking and research as well as updates along the beta patchprogression.

I would like to see some thoughts regarding each specific trade off once LK arrives and people become more knowlegdable on how acceable each ability is for each class. Each class probably have a different price on their abilities (some are in fight personal dps losses from needing to use time/resources on keeping it up and some are personal dps losses from having to forgo other talents, some might be baseline abilities and should of course be noted as such)

This is of course something probably you can't do at the moment(before we know the actual impact the talentchoices will have on lvl 80 characters) but it would add a depth to the list/index and would definatly be on my wishlist for a extended list for a think tank article. (I'm not up to speed on how the selection for think tank articles happens and who keeps working on such articles)

Also, having such a list with needed comments would keep a lot of questions out of the main class threads.

I think a table will be a much better representation. Rows are each of the buffs and columns each of the classes. Some cells will be empty but pretty much all you need to know is in a reasonably small table.

Anybody catch this post by Ghostcrawler on the beta boards?

It looks like DKs are getting individual buffs to their raid buff talents. Is this a sign that other classes talents will be tuned similarly? I hope so.

Considering that Misery was changed to add an empowerment effect, I'm also getting the impression that all raid-buff talents are being changed to be desirable on their own as well. In fact, it almost looks to me like the raid utility of talents aren't even part of the budget--3% crit for 3 talent points, 2% STR for 2 talent points, and 2% haste for 1 talent point are all well within normal budget standards, as is the misery empowerment. The talent budget, as well as the character strength, seems to be balanced around the notion that the buffs will be automatic and not something the character has to sacrifice effectiveness for. Granted, without the utility buffs the talents are relatively boring, so the utility does define the talent in a way, but they're not underpowered in isolation.