They become active when they pass the door, the same thing with their threat list.
Exactly. But there is a nuance. They won't do anything until all 3 of them are through the door, UNLESS someone does something to one of them (e.g., taunt, hit, totem, trap, etc.). That moment of standing still can be critical for the tank(s) on the doorside to get control of all of them.
I have a question about sentinels and spell reflects. We've used 2 different sentinel tanks. When one tank reflects the blast, Omen shows the tank's threat jump a large amount, but when the other reflects, his threat sometimes doesn't budge, but the Sentinel loses about 10% of its health instantly so we assume it was successful.
So is it safe to assume that whenever reflects are successful, we can go all out on DPS regardless of what Omen says?
I have a question about sentinels and spell reflects. We've used 2 different sentinel tanks. When one tank reflects the blast, Omen shows the tank's threat jump a large amount, but when the other reflects, his threat sometimes doesn't budge, but the Sentinel loses about 10% of its health instantly so we assume it was successful.
So is it safe to assume that whenever reflects are successful, we can go all out on DPS regardless of what Omen says?
I would assume there is a bug or version control problem with Omen on one of the tanks. Spell reflection should always generate threat when it does damage.
They become active when they pass the door, the same thing with their threat list.
Their aggro list doesn't start until they become "active," which is a little after they get through the door. Because of this it's possible for the tank to "waste" specials if he lands them too early, like Magtheridon transitioning to P2. Basically they're not counted as real mobs until they start running.
I have a question about sentinels and spell reflects. We've used 2 different sentinel tanks. When one tank reflects the blast, Omen shows the tank's threat jump a large amount, but when the other reflects, his threat sometimes doesn't budge, but the Sentinel loses about 10% of its health instantly so we assume it was successful.
So is it safe to assume that whenever reflects are successful, we can go all out on DPS regardless of what Omen says?
I've never trusted a threat meter to correctly add threat from Spell Reflects and would never recommend anyone to do so. My threat on Omen has always been accurate though, and I cannot recall it showing any jump when I do reflect. I've had Sentinels not even cast Void Blast before dying and we never kill them with more than 5seconds left until next Sentinel.
Also, reflecting Void Blast should only take ~5% of its health off. Every Pulse is another ~5%.
Their aggro list doesn't start until they become "active," which is a little after they get through the door. Because of this it's possible for the tank to "waste" specials if he lands them too early, like Magtheridon transitioning to P2. Basically they're not counted as real mobs until they start running.
Last sentence isn't accurate. When they stop, they can be hit and any direct attack activates them. They become a valid recipient for threat when they stop, not when they start moving after that.
You can also see this behavior on Sinister Reflections - they can stay there for up to a few seconds, but the moment a tank or any other form of direct damage/aoe hits them (i.e. heal/global threat doesn't) they'll start hitting back or running.
I have a question about sentinels and spell reflects. We've used 2 different sentinel tanks. When one tank reflects the blast, Omen shows the tank's threat jump a large amount, but when the other reflects, his threat sometimes doesn't budge, but the Sentinel loses about 10% of its health instantly so we assume it was successful.
So is it safe to assume that whenever reflects are successful, we can go all out on DPS regardless of what Omen says?
I think it would be extremely unlikely you could out threat a warrior after a 7-10k spell reflect. I don't even think you could come close if you tried. After probably 400 attempts and 2 kills I am still yet to see someone pull after a spell reflect has landed. Wiped to pulling agro from a resisted spell reflect and when they are missed because the tank is intervening through darkness or what ever but even then communication/omen is useful.
So is it safe to assume that whenever reflects are successful, we can go all out on DPS regardless of what Omen says?
Yes. As soon as he starts casting its safe to just nuke all out (unless your tank is missing spell reflects, which shouldn't be happening anyway) because it will die before its possible for anyone to pass him. When I tank them I don't even build threat after I reflect, I just mash shield block and save rage for the next one.
Spell reflect doesnt generate any EXTRA aggro. Its basically damage x defensive stance x defiance. Since the reflects vary from 10k to 15k depending on debuffs (not sure where the 7-10k came from - its 10k from the start, affected by curse of shadow/misery/shadowweaving/imp sbolt - usually all up with our setup), the threat goes from ~15k to ~22k. Given the warlocks aggro modifier at 0.63 with salv and extra 30% its almost impossible to pull aggro before it dies. Still it can sometimes happen as I had one time. I guess a huge string of crits can do that , but I also stop doing any threat after the reflect - just get rage back up.
Reflected Void Blast seems to take also over 10% of Sentinel Hp - sometimes when they choose to just not cast, we run into some tight situations - 35% more damage taken is rough with only one druid hotting me, and the need to dps him for 3-4 more seconds sometimes makes it a close call on picking next one.
Spell reflect doesnt generate any EXTRA aggro. Its basically damage x defensive stance x defiance. Since the reflects vary from 10k to 15k depending on debuffs (not sure where the 7-10k came from - its 10k from the start, affected by curse of shadow/misery/shadowweaving/imp sbolt - usually all up with our setup), the threat goes from ~15k to ~22k. Given the warlocks aggro modifier at 0.63 with salv and extra 30% its almost impossible to pull aggro before it dies. Still it can sometimes happen as I had one time. I guess a huge string of crits can do that , but I also stop doing any threat after the reflect - just get rage back up.
Reflected Void Blast seems to take also over 10% of Sentinel Hp - sometimes when they choose to just not cast, we run into some tight situations - 35% more damage taken is rough with only one druid hotting me, and the need to dps him for 3-4 more seconds sometimes makes it a close call on picking next one.
7-10k was a guess i didn't actually pull out the calculator and quantum physics book to work out the numbers. If you spell reflect like Handz from Avant Garde stated it will die a long time before you can even possibly lose agro.
I've never trusted a threat meter to correctly add threat from Spell Reflects and would never recommend anyone to do so.
I didn't realize they added spell reflect threat, that must be a recent addition. In the case of Sentinels on M'uru, DPS should just watch for the debuff it applies when reflected. Void Blast doesn't stack with Thunder Clap, does it? I couldn't tell for sure when we did tries.
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Their aggro list doesn't start until they become "active," which is a little after they get through the door. Because of this it's possible for the tank to "waste" specials if he lands them too early, like Magtheridon transitioning to P2. Basically they're not counted as real mobs until they start running.
It has been my experience that, on the exit side at least, all specials I've landed, regardless of where they are (as long as I can hit them), count towards their threat. This includes slightly in the barrier, and every step along the way to the spot they stop at. The entrance side is a far different creature, but you can't even touch those mobs until they are at their "stop" point.
Perhaps they simply have healing-based threat disabled until they hit their "stop" points?
Im not sure what affects the Reflects currently. The reason Omen never handled reflects was simple - the threat is simply damagexthreat modifiers. Before 2.4 Combat log would never show the reflect value (and thats what all the threat meters base upon) - the mob/player would get a number over their head to show you how much your reflect hit them for, but combat log entry was simply "you reflect XXX spell YYY". Now after 2.4 USUALLY you get told the reflect number in the log - and threatmeters catch it easily. Sometimes though you dont, and I honestly have no idea what its based upon - you can see it simply if you use SCT. Some void blasts will show as "Void Blast (12766)" for example, and some just as "Reflect:Void Blast" without the number. Its not a threat meter issue if your Omen doesnt display the threat from it - its something about your wow client not getting data about every reflect you do - maybe its lag, maybe its something else.
It has been my experience that, on the exit side at least, all specials I've landed, regardless of where they are (as long as I can hit them), count towards their threat. This includes slightly in the barrier, and every step along the way to the spot they stop at. The entrance side is a far different creature, but you can't even touch those mobs until they are at their "stop" point.
Perhaps they simply have healing-based threat disabled until they hit their "stop" points?
This. I only have experience with the back, but those back adds 100% most certainly do build threat as soon as you are doing anything at all to them. We used to throw frost traps in the back to help the tank get everything situated (nixed this later), but when we were doing that, we'd sometimes have upwards of 10 seconds of dps/threat time on the npcs before they hit their rally point and stopped, and ALL of that threat was applicable and on their list when they "activated".
This. I only have experience with the back, but those back adds 100% most certainly do build threat as soon as you are doing anything at all to them. We used to throw frost traps in the back to help the tank get everything situated (nixed this later), but when we were doing that, we'd sometimes have upwards of 10 seconds of dps/threat time on the npcs before they hit their rally point and stopped, and ALL of that threat was applicable and on their list when they "activated".
Yah that has been our experience as well. That was why on each side we made sure no one did anything to them until they got to their rally point and all 3 were standing on top of eachother.
Wow, you're right... how I overlooked that is completely beyond me. So basically direct threat moves count from the moment they spawn, but global threat (healing, buffs etc) don't count until they reach their 'waypoint' and 'activate', be it after a timer or another attack is landed.
Seems similar to the Defenders at Akama (What a good and bad fight to compare this to... heh). They don't immediately zoom off for a healer when they get to the middle of the room, but if anyone hits them on the way there, they beeline back if the tank doesn't grab them.
Edit: Or, an alternative explanation could be, there are 8 mobs (a sentinel, M'uru, and 6 Blood Elves, possibly a ton more if spawns are up) to divide healing aggro between. 15000 healing would be 15000 / 2 / 8 or less than 1k threat not counting salv/range. A single swipe crit would out-aggro that.
I don't think anyone would be OCD enough to prove/disprove the theory either way, I guess. Just chalk it down as global threat being a non-issue for practical purposes.
I didn't realize they added spell reflect threat, that must be a recent addition. In the case of Sentinels on M'uru, DPS should just watch for the debuff it applies when reflected. Void Blast doesn't stack with Thunder Clap, does it? I couldn't tell for sure when we did tries.
Threat from spell reflect was addressed a few times, after Gathios on council made it a significant thing. I think they got it working mostly correctly a bit before sunwell was released.
To the best of my knowledge healing threat (along with buffing threat and threat from power gains) is indeed divided between all mobs in combat. It's one of the things that makes tanking multi-mob pulls in 5-person dungeons possible for non-paladins in poor gear.
RE: Spell reflect, I've never seen it show up on Omen so it is either really new or doesn't work very well. To this day we still have a fun contest on Illidari council called "Threat Wars" where we see who can get the most threat without pulling agro. Our dps warrior usually can get to 150-160% of my threat before pulling since spell reflect threat isn't measured. It makes omen look pretty fucked up but we just have gotten used to that and accepted it.
06/12/08, 4:00 PM
