Simultaneous exclusion of on-use effects normally applies to offensive trinkets only. Healing or Avoidance trinkets already stack, so I would assume dual autoblocker does as well.
I love that the dagger's 2.0 speed. Clever - and also quite powerful, for its ilvl. That might even convince a few newly-70 rogues to spec daggers for a while.
I love that the dagger's 2.0 speed. Clever - and also quite powerful, for its ilvl. That might even convince a few newly-70 rogues to spec daggers for a while.
I would note that it doesn't appear to be Unique either, making it quite a good Mutilate dagger.
EDIT: I am presuming it isn't a straight quest reward, which would make the Unique tag redundant.
I love that the dagger's 2.0 speed. Clever - and also quite powerful, for its ilvl. That might even convince a few newly-70 rogues to spec daggers for a while.
It's the return of the glorious [Barman Shanker]! Bit of nostalgia for rogues who remember the pre-normalization days when speed>all and the Shanker>epix.
I love that the dagger's 2.0 speed. Clever - and also quite powerful, for its ilvl. That might even convince a few newly-70 rogues to spec daggers for a while.
Edit: Poster above summarized my reaction.
The ties to the [Barman Shanker] are also evidenced by the location and theme of the event. Any screencaps yet to see if it has the same model?
Last edited by dfense : 06/24/08 at 8:02 PM.
Reason: Beaten to the punch
I love that the dagger's 2.0 speed. Clever - and also quite powerful, for its ilvl. That might even convince a few newly-70 rogues to spec daggers for a while.
Clearly a homage to: Barman Shanker
A dagger many a rogue farmed for back in the day. And I'll bet the new one uses the same model, a broken bottle. Most likely linked to the new event in the bar of BRD...which is wear the barman shanker dropped.
With all the discussion about Ahune I was unable to see if this was discussed.
Mentioned but not truly discussed. People seem more interested in the less important aspects of the patch (bags, Ahune) than the huge change in PvP balance that undispellable armors will bring.
Personally--I feel this makes warlocks overpowered again, because Fel Armor is simply too powerful of a buff. Unlike mages, where Mage Armor and Molten Armor have situational uses (even in PvP), Fel Armor is so dominant that it alone changes the flow of a game, making 2v2 games of (for example) Priest/Rogue vs. Warlock/Healer nearly impossible to win for the Priest/Rogue team. Likewise, this is a huge change in survivability for Mages, for whom Frostbite procs are a bit deal when being chased by melee.
I would like to see the WotlK "Fel Armor has +damage" and "Demon armor has +% healing" buffs, instead of just Fel Armor.
Long term I see this as a large change in Warlock viability in 3s, especially vs RMP.
Mentioned but not truly discussed. People seem more interested in the less important aspects of the patch (bags, Ahune) than the huge change in PvP balance that undispellable armors will bring.
Maybe bags and Ahune aren't important to you, but I personally find arena and balancing the game around it beyond stupid. I think it is fair to say that nothing in this game is more important than anything else, everyone is welcome to their own priorities.
Regardless, we did discuss how powerful dispel mechanics are at the moment and how odd it is that warlocks and mages are getting complete dispel immunity while other buffs such as Pally Seals and Inner Fire for Priests are let out in the cold.
It's a really annoying change that seems to be aimed at Rogues/Warriors, but is going to hurt me (Enhancement Shaman). Quite annoying, especially since one of the worst comps (Druid/War/Rogue) isn't even affected by it.
Regardless, we did discuss how powerful dispel mechanics are at the moment and how odd it is that warlocks and mages are getting complete dispel immunity while other buffs such as Pally Seals and Inner Fire for Priests are let out in the cold.
How surprising that you somehow made this change into a complaint about Paladins.
Comparing a 30 minute self buff that is instrumental in the survival of the class vs. a low cost, temporary buff that is designed to be Judged every 10 (or 8) seconds is laughable. Not to mention that Mages and Warlocks would prefer to lose pretty much any buff but their armor, whereas Paladins want their Seals to be the first thing dispelled (given the choice).
As a Ret Paladin you have the choice to make your Seals undispellable (with 3% to crit thrown in) and it's simple to argue that this is the only Spec of Paladin that requires this sort of abilities. As a Holy Paladin, your Seal is likely the least of your concern, BoF being a much higher value. As Prot? Well, let's not even worry about that.
Regardless, we did discuss how powerful dispel mechanics are at the moment and how odd it is that warlocks and mages are getting complete dispel immunity while other buffs such as Pally Seals and Inner Fire for Priests are let out in the cold.
Paladin seals are nowhere near the same as Warlock and Mage armors.
Looking at the broader concept of Mage and Warlock armor, it is rather evident that they are intended to be up at all times. They last 30 minutes and the only reason you would normally run around without one of the armors is because someone had just removed it. This is a welcome change, but I almost wonder if there's much of a point to even having a duration associated with them? If you're always going to have it up for at least 30 minutes and there is no reagent cost, it wouldn't be too far to say that removing the duration would make them feel more natural.
With all the discussion about Ahune I was unable to see if this was discussed.
There wasn't anything really to discuss except "Good change" and "it's about time". Blizzard obviously wants to be able to balance Mages/Locks with the assumption that there armors are always active, and thus changed it accordingly.
Comparing a 30 minute self buff that is instrumental in the survival of the class vs. a low cost, temporary buff that is designed to be Judged every 10 (or 8) seconds is laughable. Not to mention that Mages and Warlocks would prefer to lose pretty much any buff but their armor, whereas Paladins want their Seals to be the first thing dispelled (given the choice).
Instrumental to survival for Mages/Locks, instrumental to dealing any kind of damage for Paladins. Tomato, tomahto.
Paladin seals are nowhere near the same as Warlock and Mage armors.
Yet they are just as intrinsic and essential to the class as Fireball, Shadow Bolt or Sinister Strike.
A Paladin without Seals is whacking away with autoattack, barely doing any damage and not posing a threat to anyone. Our entire combat system relies on being able to cast and use Seals reliably.
Paladin seals are nowhere near the same as Warlock and Mage armors.
Looking at the broader concept of Mage and Warlock armor, it is rather evident that they are intended to be up at all times. They last 30 minutes and the only reason you would normally run around without one of the armors is because someone had just removed it. This is a welcome change, but I almost wonder if there's much of a point to even having a duration associated with them? If you're always going to have it up for at least 30 minutes and there is no reagent cost, it wouldn't be too far to say that removing the duration would make them feel more natural.
Righteous Fury? Regardless, this topic _has_ been discussed fairly thoroughly just a couple of pages back, so flyingtoastr was correct in that regard.
Also, your argument is rather specious I feel. Arcane Intellect is a thirty minute buff requiring no reagents and the only reason a mage would run around without it is if it was dispelled, or they forgot. So clearly the fact that they're self-cast only plays some significant role (hello pally seals?).
Instrumental to survival for Mages/Locks, instrumental to dealing any kind of damage for Paladins. Tomato, tomahto.
I think Blizzard as put more of an emphasis on survival over dealing too be honest, not to mention that Paladins do have undispellable Auras. Yes, they aren't as powerful as individual Mage or Warlock armor, but they are useful and affect 5 people. I believe Auras would be a much better comparison to Armors than tempoary Seals that are meant to be used within 10 seconds.
As for Damage Dealing, a Ret Paladin can easily watch his Swing Timer and re-apply right before he swings that big two-hander, then instantly Judge if need be...of course we are forgetting that any Ret Paladin worth his salt is either running 3/3 Sanctified Seals or 2/3 Sanctified Seals + 2/2 Stoicism which makes the conversation moot.
EDIT: And yes, for what it's worth, I think Righteous Fury should be physical and undispellable as well.
Personally--I feel this makes warlocks overpowered again, because Fel Armor is simply too powerful of a buff. Unlike mages, where Mage Armor and Molten Armor have situational uses (even in PvP), Fel Armor is so dominant that it alone changes the flow of a game, making 2v2 games of (for example) Priest/Rogue vs. Warlock/Healer nearly impossible to win for the Priest/Rogue team. Likewise, this is a huge change in survivability for Mages, for whom Frostbite procs are a bit deal when being chased by melee.
Well, I can't speak for mages, but as for warlocks...
The last batch of arena statistics Vharir lifted off the armoury shows warlocks below the target values in both 3v3 and 5v5, and just inside the target zone in 2v2. In all the recent data trawls he's done, rogues primarily have been on the rise as warlocks fall. It's pretty easy enough to see why, too; Rogues tear us to shreds. The way S4 gear is laid out - if the DPS calculations based on the stat increases from S3 to S4 I've seen are correct (or in other words; The ones I saw looked good to me, but I can't claim to have that much of a clue on the subject) - rogues are looking at a fairly decent increase in damage done, that warlock S4 does not match with a fairly decent increase in corresponding defense stats (nor, freakishly enough, increase in damage, especially not if we get bitchy enough to subtract the semi-recent nerf to Demonic Knowledge).
Or, in not quite so many words, warlocks are a sinking ship when it comes to arena representation, because we die relatively easy, and as the overal gear level gets better, we'll die even more, because we have no counter to being focused in general, and melee in particular. This relatively small and simple changes alleviate that somewhat, without significantly having to dip into the upcoming WotlK changes to our talent tree to actually grab the counters they're going to add.
edit: Changed some phrases for the sake of clarity.
, warlocks are a sinking ship when it comes to arena representation
I personally believe that warlocks are fine, that said I'll believe your numbers in terms of representation.
This change would buff warlocks at the expense of classes that can dispel -- that is to say priests, shaman and hunters.
Not sure that any of the healing specs really needed a nerf in the face of druid healing dominance, in fact I would say that currently shaman/priest/druid is the best balanced it has ever been.
Enh/ele shaman, shadow priests and hunters are probably the 4 worst dps classes as well, and I'm pretty certain the representation numbers will support me on that. EDIT: Ok, boomkins and ret paladins are pretty bad too. But these 4 are worse than rogue/warrior/mage/warlock by more than a little.
Yes, this change (if it goes live) will be a warlock buff, but it is a buff at the expense of classes that didn't need their power weakened. If the real problem is warlock vs. warrior or rogue, you shouldn't nerf the shaman behind them while leaving the matchup completely unchanged vs. druid/paladin healed teams.
The sad thing about Ice Armor being undispellable is that it really doesn't matter *that much* to warriors or rogues (unless I'm missing something) but it pretty much kills any chance an enhancement shaman ever has of killing a mage.
The warlock thing is fine, they need anything they can to stay alive.
Yes, this change (if it goes live) will be a warlock buff, but it is a buff at the expense of classes that didn't need their power weakened. If the real problem is warlock vs. warrior or rogue, you shouldn't nerf the shaman behind them while leaving the matchup completely unchanged vs. druid/paladin healed teams.
The problem was that casters were balanced with the assumption that they would have those buffs or otherwise Blizzard wouldn't have given them survivability enhancing effects centered around melee resistance. Now they get to keep those buffs active which in turn lowers the power of Rogues and Warriors.
The Washington Post helps perpetuate a common and pernicious misreading of the decision, referring to "the Supreme Court’s judgment that corporations have the same rights as people when it comes to political speech." What the Supreme Court actually said is that people do not lose their free speech rights when they organize as corporations, including nonprofit interest groups as well as businesses.
06/24/08, 2:17 PM
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