Why would a tank be useless for PvP ? You only need to give him the tools to actually play his role as a TANK.
Make taunts useful (if only through switching target and preventing them to be changed for one or two seconds), give the tank a talent to take a part of the damage of someone, to give someone a part of his own defense, etc.
Tanking could be perfectly viable, and even very powerful, in PvP. It just require to have talents/abilities allowing that. So yes, it's ENTIRELY a lack of creativity.
And the question becomes why not bring a healer that can do all of this..and heal. Unless you wish to take damage mitigating abilities away from healers in PvP?
Again, I stated three things that are essential in PvP..You simply said "give the tanks the third" while only quoting the first. The third is the realm of healing classes.
There is "creativity" and then there is "whats fun" "what works" and "what is possible"..Is it cool to think of a warrior being able to produce a buff that absorbs 30% of the targets damage and transfers it to himself? Yeah..Does that work really? Well..No, it doesn't....imagine a soul link lock but many times harder to kill..now give it to a class like rogues, and you have something overpowered. I won't even go into how it breaks PvE.
Again, your creativity is looking at the game in the narrowest of scopes and defining it only by PvP..The devs have PvE to think of, too as well as how abilities interact with...other classes. So I would say its entirely about being pragmatic.
You can call yourself a frost mage all you want, but you'll be terrible DPS.
At the risk of going completely offtopic, I have to point out that as of right now, good frost mages aren't far behind arcane and fire PVE specs DPS-wise. This is mainly due to Elemental Precision giving Frostbolt an extra 3% "ghost hit" still, and players who bother to master using their Elemental/Cold Snap/stacking cooldowns. I think the issue more often is this: a good mage will do good DPS, a bad mage will do bad DPS.
Less than 5% difference makes it hard to call frost "terrible DPS".
At the risk of going completely offtopic, I have to point out that as of right now, good frost mages aren't far behind arcane and fire PVE specs DPS-wise. This is mainly due to Elemental Precision giving Frostbolt an extra 3% "ghost hit" still, and players who bother to master using their Elemental/Cold Snap/stacking cooldowns. I think the issue more often is this: a good mage will do good DPS, a bad mage will do bad DPS.
And the question becomes why not bring a healer that can do all of this..and heal. Unless you wish to take damage mitigating abilities away from healers in PvP?
Again, I stated three things that are essential in PvP..You simply said "give the tanks the third" while only quoting the first. The third is the realm of healing classes.
Why should it be the job of healer to shield others from damage, and not the tank ? Perhaps that's precisely a point to correct.
There is "creativity" and then there is "whats fun" "what works" and "what is possible"..Is it cool to think of a warrior being able to produce a buff that absorbs 30% of the targets damage and transfers it to himself? Yeah..Does that work really? Well..No, it doesn't....imagine a soul link lock but many times harder to kill..now give it to a class like rogues, and you have something overpowered. I won't even go into how it breaks PvE.
Again, your creativity is looking at the game in the narrowest of scopes and defining it only by PvP..The devs have PvE to think of, too as well as how abilities interact with...other classes. So I would say its entirely about being pragmatic.
One one side you say that tanks have no place in PvP because they add nothing, on the other you say that shielding the rogue of the team would be overpowered. Make up your mind. You can't be both intrinsically useless and overpowered at the same time.
For the rest... You seem to decide arbitrarily that tanking in PvP can't happen, but provide nothing actually substancial to prove it. Taking in account fun, possibility, synergy, not wrecking PvE ? Yeah, that's what is done with every single talent and ability in the game. So ? Is tanking in PvP something different by nature from the rest of the game ?
Originally Posted by Mearis
Well then refuse to do anything except dps or tank and find likeminded people to play with?
Yeah, because MMO are totally the kind of game you can put yourself in a bubble into, and immersion is not at all affected by things happening in the game.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
It's really not Blizzard's fault that the average player is pretty ignorant when it comes to game mechanics
Yes, but ret paladin mechanics can easily be made visable by something as simple as updating their tooltips - and that could quite easily be 'blizzards fault' for not doing. Even people who are somewhat ignorant to game mechanics can read tooltips =)
Yeah, because MMO are totally the kind of game you can put yourself in a bubble into, and immersion is not at all affected by things happening in the game.
You can't have it both ways - either you roleplay as a "savage Barbarian who shuns anything and everything that resembles a shield", or you go along with what your current group needs/wants of you, or you find another group.
Alternatively, one could also roleplay "a stoic crusader willing renowned for his adaptability in any situation"
You can't have it both ways - either you roleplay as a "savage Barbarian who shuns anything and everything that resembles a shield", or you go along with what your current group needs/wants of you, or you find another group.
Alternatively, one could also roleplay "a stoic crusader willing renowned for his adaptability in any situation"
And renowned for his ability to perform brain surgery on himself, sure. Every few hours he suddenly remembers half a dozen skills he knew yesterday and forgets another half dozen he was just using. Makes a ton of sense.
What we (those of us opposed to crazy willy-nilly respeccing) want here is a game where everyone wins: where you choose your spec based on the way you want to play your character, as part of the definition of the kind of "person" you want him or her to be, and you stick with that and live with both the strengths and weaknesses resulting from your choices, but where as long as you play that character well, you will be an asset to a group regardless of what kind of content you choose to participate in.
It's frankly beyond my understanding that anyone would want the game to be otherwise, but it takes all kinds, I suppose. Still, it's only natural for us all to advocate for the type of game we want WoW to be, because that is by definition the type of game we want to play.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
This really isn't a problem with the game, as much as it is a problem with the players. It's really not Blizzard's fault that the average player is pretty ignorant when it comes to game mechanics.
Ret paladins, MS warriors, and shadowpriests all put out significantly less dps than "pure dpsers" but only idiots would question their usefulness in a raid on fights like Brutallus.
I'm not sure if this was intended to be a troll post, but it certainly came across as one. If the players are ignorant of game mechanics, it most certainly is Blizzard's fault for not adequately communicating information about the game to the player. As another example, you cannot say with a straight face that Blizzard can completely wash their hands of counterintuitive hunter mechanics (that are not explained anyhwere in-game) leading to an abnormal percentage of underskilled hunters. It's the same with ret paladins not providing the same kind of "visceral" feedback that other classes get, and this is a problem because your average wow player isn't sitting here on these boards theorycrafting or reading everyone else's theorycraft. They don't understand what a ret paladin can do, or why it might be good to have one -- in short, just as with hunters, the lack of information, whether written or visual, is a huge barrier to many players in understanding why they should take a ret paladin over another mage who can sheep, or a shadow priest who makes it so they don't have to drink as much.
We can sit here and scoff, "But it's obvious if you just think about it!" all we want, but Blizzard is a company. In the business world, if the majority of customers misunderstand the product and suffer performance issues, you tell them nicely to read the manual. If the manual lacks critical information, you need to change the manual, not tell the customers to look at third party FAQs.
I'm not sure if this was intended to be a troll post, but it certainly came across as one. If the players are ignorant of game mechanics, it most certainly is Blizzard's fault for not adequately communicating information about the game to the player.
It's a troll post for stating the obvious?
There are plenty of buffs out there that don't show up visually to the player. For example, when a Mage crits, is the crit because of their crit, a Boomkin Aura crit or the Paladins Imp Cursader Aura Crit. They just know that they crit, and if they did a WWS they'd see that during a long fight they'll crit more than they would normally.
If a Rogue doesn't believe that he gets another 3% to crit and 2% over all damage due to having a Ret Paladin sitting beside him wacking on Brutallus, I'm afraid to say that is not Blizzard's fault. If there truly was to be 100% reporting of every characters true damage, the log would be unreadable. You have the player doing the damage, then the ones responsible for the "passive" buffs (MotW, Blessings, AI, Imp Spirit, food, etc.), then throw in active buffs (Misery, Curses, Totems, Imp Crusader, Sanc Aura, Sunder, Expose Weakness, etc.) the log would be immense. Just because a few buffs actually show visibile representation (WFT, VT, VE, Imp LotP come to mind) doesn't mean every one should.
EDIT: And even if they did make an alternate Combat Log that did show everything, the only people that would likely parse it are the people who already know that Ret Paladins bring a lot to the raid meaning it would do no good anyways.
And renowned for his ability to perform brain surgery on himself, sure. Every few hours he suddenly remembers half a dozen skills he knew yesterday and forgets another half dozen he was just using. Makes a ton of sense.
Most hero types in literature and fables (outside of the "reluctant hero" type) always can do things nobody else can. Think of your Beowolf's or even the Lord of the Ring guys (outside the reluctant Hobbits that is). The ability to take on hordes of baddies, or fight a dragon one-on-one even after it's slayed an army is nothing new.
We're talking about a video game where I can rub a stone for 10 seconds and teleport to hotel on another planet, sell the person there anything I have and because they have infinite money, then hop on a flying manticore and go slay some demons all on a perfectly flat floating rock in space that somehow still maintains gravity and an atmosphere. Being able to "remember" how to tank is hardly unbelieveable compared to the rest of this game.
Taken in the context of the discussion as a whole ("Ret Paladin talent improvements don't even show up in the tooltips, so Blizzard should change the tooltips to be more dynamic and easier to understand"), then yes, I think responding "it's not Blizzard's fault if players are ignorant of game mechanics" is unnecessarily trollish. The whole discussion grew out of the observation that in 5 man and some 10 man content, one of the reasons that ret paladins suffer is because the average player does not understand what exactly the ret paladin brings to the table. Asking for tooltip clarification to make information more accessible to average players is a far cry from the Brutallus raid synergy and WWS reports that people seem to be making it into. I don't see why there is such hostility towards making more information available in-game, especially when it is replacing outdated or inaccurate information.
Getting the average player to better understand the game just increases the pool of skilled players for end-level content.
toastr, how does every thread you touch turn into a ret paladin discussion?
I haven't seen this mentioned but the idea of two specs becoming available seems to open a world of encounter design possibilities. Sunwell has some great mechanics but I hate having to trade healers in for Kalec, out for Brut, in for Felmyst and then a few more for Twins, etc. I love the idea of being able to open up encounter design for tuning beyond the 'typical' raid formats we've all used through most of the game up until now (7-8 healers, 2-3 tanks, 5 melee, smattering of ranged dps, mix in a hybrid or two, stir and enjoy) however. I just wish I didn't have to recruit more and more to achieve this. Class homogenization as we're seeing it in WoTLK will help this too in my opinion but that's another topic.
Examples:
A fight where you only need a couple of healers or give everyone a way to heal themselves (lightwells?) and force some insane dps requirements could be all kinds of fun.
The polar opposite would be needing all healers and tanks (traditional tanks as well as lock/mage/boomkin tanks, heck, make rogues tank a mob somewhere in there) and NPCs bear the burden of having to kill the army of adds.
Gimmicky? Under the way we're used to thinking of MMO's? Maybe. However getting yourself out of a 'spec' and into a 'class' is certainly a way to help broaden player skill as part of end-game raiding.
If players are confused about mechanics then it could be Blizzard's fault for not communicating them, or it could be the players fault for being incredibly dense. The point that is being made is not this obvious one.
The point Philondra raised is that if on a general level players are able to understand the mechanics and benefits of certain classes far more easily than other classes then there is certainly a difference in how the information about the various classes is being communicated to the players, and that is Blizzard's fault.
If one class much less intuitive to play than another saying "it's the players fault they find one easier than the other!" makes no sense. I'm sure it's not what Blizzard is aiming for either and is the reason we see a number of chances to skills and mechanics in the game. Blizzard would prefer things to be more rather than less intuitive for all classes, and in general equally initiative for all classes.
Now, to what extent this applies to various things like Hunter mechanics and Ret Paladin appreciation can be argued, but the basic principle is pretty sound.
Last edited by Lamaros : 06/30/08 at 12:58 PM.
Reason: tyopish
If I'm PuGing a 5 man, there are 3 classes I'm always very wary of taking along without knowing who is behind the keyboard - Hunters, Ret Paladins and DPS Warriors.
Hunters mechanics are unintuitive. This means you get a lot of people playing the class who simply do not know how to put out acceptable dps. A Mage doesn't have much difficulty doing a basic level of damage - spam your bolt spell. Obviously beyond this there is fine-tuning, but poor understanding of class mechanics is much more common to Hunters and relatively more crippling to their dps. This is something that will be fixed in WotLK by removing shot clipping.
As for dps Warriors and Paladins, who knows? There is the fact that they scale well with a variety of buffs, which are harder to provide in a 5-man and thus create a small dps deficit, but to be honest I suspect that the sort of people attracted to plate dps classes are often (and I generalise here, obviously I am speaking relative to other classes) younger, unskilled players who pick their class for the OMGBIGSWORDSHINYARMOUR appeal.
Skilled players of these classes/specs are fine, but I find a larger % of them than any other specs will come along and basically need to get carried through the instance. Hunters you can do something about by fixing the mechanics, though I suspect OMGPETANDBOW will still be a factor. I think it's simply that a lot of unskilled players pick, eg. Ret Paladins and give them a bad name. From my experience, you're taking a larger gamble every time you take an unknown Retadin into your group than most other classes.
Taken in the context of the discussion as a whole ("Ret Paladin talent improvements don't even show up in the tooltips, so Blizzard should change the tooltips to be more dynamic and easier to understand"), then yes, I think responding "it's not Blizzard's fault if players are ignorant of game mechanics" is unnecessarily trollish. The whole discussion grew out of the observation that in 5 man and some 10 man content, one of the reasons that ret paladins suffer is because the average player does not understand what exactly the ret paladin brings to the table. Asking for tooltip clarification to make information more accessible to average players is a far cry from the Brutallus raid synergy and WWS reports that people seem to be making it into. I don't see why there is such hostility towards making more information available in-game, especially when it is replacing outdated or inaccurate information.
Getting the average player to better understand the game just increases the pool of skilled players for end-level content.
I agree it'd be nice to have tooltips properly reflect what the buffs/debuffs actually do. (It's hardly unique to Ret - see imp. Hunter's Mark, imp. Kidney Shot, imp. DS, imp. *anything* for examples of non-updated tooltips hiding nice group buffs)
I disagree that tooltips are some imposing barrier to Ret acceptance. How hard is it to explain, "My talents give 3% group/raid-wide crit, 2% damage to group"? The information is right there in the talent tree - the Ret paladin who's looking for a group knows it (I'd hope). In addition, there are more selling points than that- in any group without a paladin (quite possible in 5-mans), you can bring Salv, Wis, Might, maybe Kings. If the group already has a Prot paladin - then that "useless" 10% holy damage suddenly becomes very alluring!
If the group is already prejudiced against Ret paladins, that's a player issue, and it's the Ret paladin's job to counter the misconceptions or find a new group. Not every 5-man group is a wannabe min/maxer.
This has been stated a bit before, but I want to suggest something mixed in with the previous idea.
Someone stated having an ability where you could change spec's with the click of a button but on a cooldown (said time was 20-30 minutes).
What I propose (since there are many in the game) is a money sink for talents. How many times have each of you respec'd? How many times have you accidentally clicked a talent you didn't want and have to respec again?
I think a large, lump sum of gold should be charged to purchase a permanent respec. Then, similar to bag/bank slots, you can purchase additional talent slots. These slots, like bank slots, would increase as you get more to a maximum of Y. Starting cost would be X, then X*1.5, then X*3 etc. etc.
Put a short cooldown, and a non-combat trigger, to prevent switching spec's during an encounter, arena etc.
And renowned for his ability to perform brain surgery on himself, sure. Every few hours he suddenly remembers half a dozen skills he knew yesterday and forgets another half dozen he was just using. Makes a ton of sense.
What we (those of us opposed to crazy willy-nilly respeccing) want here is a game where everyone wins: where you choose your spec based on the way you want to play your character, as part of the definition of the kind of "person" you want him or her to be, and you stick with that and live with both the strengths and weaknesses resulting from your choices, but where as long as you play that character well, you will be an asset to a group regardless of what kind of content you choose to participate in.
It's frankly beyond my understanding that anyone would want the game to be otherwise, but it takes all kinds, I suppose. Still, it's only natural for us all to advocate for the type of game we want WoW to be, because that is by definition the type of game we want to play.
WoW will always be a game before it's an RPG. Blizzard will always break immersion if it means a more fun game (i.e. less difficult or less of a hassle for players). That's just how they operate. It's what has made them so successful. Is it really so immersion breaking to be able to respec on a character for whom death is a temporary and minor inconvenience? Who dies 30 times a day or more and is no worse for the wear?
Before you worry about other people trying to make the game fit what they want it to be, you should really look at what the game *is* and adjust your expectations accordingly.
Most hero types in literature and fables (outside of the "reluctant hero" type) always can do things nobody else can. Think of your Beowolf's or even the Lord of the Ring guys (outside the reluctant Hobbits that is). The ability to take on hordes of baddies, or fight a dragon one-on-one even after it's slayed an army is nothing new.
We're talking about a video game where I can rub a stone for 10 seconds and teleport to hotel on another planet, sell the person there anything I have and because they have infinite money, then hop on a flying manticore and go slay some demons all on a perfectly flat floating rock in space that somehow still maintains gravity and an atmosphere. Being able to "remember" how to tank is hardly unbelieveable compared to the rest of this game.
If we stop using logic and instead sees what this means for the game. Imagine if there were no way you could respec your character at all, then wow would have almost an unlimited amount of ways to customize your character. The old setup with a restrictive respec makes you still able to change if you screw up but you would not be able to respec for every ocasion. The new much lighter respec makes people respec daily to fit their needs and almost the only difference between two chars is their gear.
If we went the last step they could just as well remove the talent trees since then there would be no difference between players of the same class. In other words, your character just got worthless as a character and instead just one among a class. Customization is a very important part of RPG's.
Currently each class has maybe 3 cookie cutter specs, that means that you effectively have 27 different possible character combat styles, the easier you make the ability to respec the more this will get diminished into just 9 classes and were each class have 3 combat styles that you can switch as easy as switching gear.
Atleast I hope for a lot higher respec cost caps in the next expansion, up to roughly 250-500g.(Remember that you will earn a ton more gold at lvl 80 than 70 just like 70 earns a ton more gold than 60) They could even make the cap scale with your level so that the level 60 don't get screwed by the change.
If you say "Why should not every player be able to experience the full potential of their class?", its easy to reply with "So the, why should they not be able to experience the full potential of the game by allowing them to change class also? Why not allow every player to take every trade skill? Restrictions is the most important aspect of mmorpgs, everything that is easy to get gets useless to the players since its the feeling that you are unique in some way that every person strives for. Everyone have different ways to achieve that goal, but believe me when I say that easier respecs do make that harder.
Be happy that you can respec at all, be angry that some specs sucks in some areas of the game. Also you know how to easily get free respecs between two builds? Level another character.
Originally Posted by ildon
WoW will always be a game before it's an RPG. Blizzard will always break immersion if it means a more fun game (i.e. less difficult or less of a hassle for players). That's just how they operate. It's what has made them so successful. Is it really so immersion breaking to be able to respec on a character for whom death is a temporary and minor inconvenience? Who dies 30 times a day or more and is no worse for the wear?
Before you worry about other people trying to make the game fit what they want it to be, you should really look at what the game *is* and adjust your expectations accordingly.
It however breaks player uniqueness a bit which is a very bad thing. No one plays a mmorpg were everyone is a copy of everyone else.
What we (those of us opposed to crazy willy-nilly respeccing) want here is a game where everyone wins: where you choose your spec based on the way you want to play your character, as part of the definition of the kind of "person" you want him or her to be, and you stick with that and live with both the strengths and weaknesses resulting from your choices, but where as long as you play that character well, you will be an asset to a group regardless of what kind of content you choose to participate in.
It's frankly beyond my understanding that anyone would want the game to be otherwise, but it takes all kinds, I suppose. Still, it's only natural for us all to advocate for the type of game we want WoW to be, because that is by definition the type of game we want to play.
Well, at risk of speaking for others and saying things they didn't really mean, while I agree completely with what you said using mages as an example earlier, specs should matter, the simple fact is that I'm unwilling to pay for a game that has game systems that will be awesome at some unspecified point in the future "once the flaws are removed", when I can have a game system that is decent now. The current handling of various talen trees for the metagame, uhm, sucks. And I say that as a dot-whore warlock; At least what I do in PvP is reasonably close to what I want to be doing. If I were a feral druid, or a shadowpriest...
I'm not counting, but I feel reasonably safe in saying that it's been well over six months since the spec stratification really started to hit the PvP scene across the board. For warlocks at least, I know S1 had a decent representation of UA warlocks, that just evaporated a bit into S2. If we have not gotten a viable tree balance by now, regardless of the developers stated intentions (and quite frankly, I'm thinking they're pretty contradictary considering various balance changes, the lack thereof, and the stated goals for the death knight talent trees), I consider it unlikely we'll ever get them. Not because I don't believe it's possible to create that balance, because I really do think it is possible, but because it might require more investment - both in "effort" and in the financial equalent creating "development time" - Blizzard is not going to make. Or at least have shown any major inclination of making so far.
Call me shortsighted, but if I learned anything from SWG, it's that paying a monthly fee for a game's potential and pretty words of associatated devs want do to is just going to make you a bitter and cynical customer, not a happy one.
It however breaks player uniqueness a bit which is a very bad thing. No one plays a mmorpg were everyone is a copy of everyone else.
There's about 100 other factors that lead to "player uniqueness" that were specifically designed with that task in mind, including tabards, titles, face, hair, skin tone, shirts, mounts, pets, disguise-type items, and the randomness of loot itself leading to people having slightly different (but often equivalent enough that it doesn't matter) gear setups with different gemming/enchant choices. Even people of the same spec usually have 5-10 points moved around in filler talents and less important talents to fit their playstyle better. Prot warriors especially have about 15 points to play around with depending on if they're the MT, OT, and what debuff talents other people in the raid selected. Rogues have to spend nearly 10 points in combat on filler, with options including endurance, imp sprint, imp kick, and imp gouge all of which can change the way they play on trash or outside of raids in PvE and PvP.
And in the end, as has been pointed out plenty of times in this thread, if you really feel your character's identity is associated that strongly with the spec, you don't have to respec (as long as you find like-minded or understanding people to play with you).
WoW will always be a game before it's an RPG. Blizzard will always break immersion if it means a more fun game (i.e. less difficult or less of a hassle for players). That's just how they operate. It's what has made them so successful. Is it really so immersion breaking to be able to respec on a character for whom death is a temporary and minor inconvenience? Who dies 30 times a day or more and is no worse for the wear?
It is, for me, actually. The trivialization of talent specs is, quite frankly, my number one pet peeve about the game. I despise it. Yes, we can teleport, we can die and resurrect. Consistency within the rules of the world. Talents present an interesting, useful method of defining and differentiating characters that fits the world and adds verisimilitude, helping to build a convincing environment, and respecs are basically vandalism on the scenery of that environment.
Now of course, playability must take precedent. That's why I call respecs a necessary evil. But the more that can be done to make them less necessary and more rare, the better the game becomes.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
It is, for me, actually. The trivialization of talent specs is, quite frankly, my number one pet peeve about the game. I despise it. Yes, we can teleport, we can die and resurrect. Consistency within the rules of the world. Talents present an interesting, useful method of defining and differentiating characters that fits the world and adds verisimilitude, helping to build a convincing environment, and respecs are basically vandalism on the scenery of that environment.
Now of course, playability must take precedent. That's why I call respecs a necessary evil. But the more that can be done to make them less necessary and more rare, the better the game becomes.
I could not disagree with this more. Playing multiple aspects of my character(s) gives the game much more playable depth.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but has this thread just turned into some sort of an anti-respec rally? If so, can someone explain why their immersive experience should take precedence over someone else's ability to play through most of the content without rerolling?
If you're seriously advocating this kind of platform, don't be surprised if every single Protection spec tank rerolls the FotM DPS class and never looks back. Why waste time leveling, questing, and gearing up a meat shield with all the offensive power of a wet noodle under an oppressive respec requirement? So you can go to bad PuG dungeons and get beaten to death because your DPS and healers suck? So you can go to max level raids and get beaten to death because DPS and healers are learning the encounter? So you can go sit in BGs and Arenas like the useless sack of hit points you are and contribute little to nothing of value? So you can struggle to complete anything other than gathering and FedEx quests because you lack the kind of damage output the content was tuned for?
Obviously, this little rant is colored by the current state of affairs as it is now in TBC. Perhaps the new skills in Wrath will make Protection soloing at least slightly bearable. But Blizzard has historically been notoriously slow when it comes to addressing small quality-of-life issues affecting a small subset of class specs, so you'll forgive me if I'd prefer to keep highly-accessible respecs in the name of playability over immersion.
Last edited by Antmanton : 06/30/08 at 3:09 PM.
Reason: Spelling
06/30/08, 10:19 AM
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