Kil'Jaeden - Page 5

Regen · 07/22/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Garrodd

There also seems to be another knockback that occurs when you get too close to the center of his hitbox while he is not casting shadow spike. From my limited experience, this seems to also knock you back farther than his threat-based knockback although I may have just been getting hit by both simultaneously a few times.

This is similar to C'thun's (Was it only p2???) knockback. It is to prevent you from running directly through him, however unlike C'thuns proximity knockback KJ's does not deal any damage.

I have heard when dealing with adds this area that causes proximity knockback also counts as LoS on the adds themselves (to force caster movement). I am not pretty sure however this area does not LoS heals (not 100%).

wastedyouth · 07/22/08, 6:49 PM

Hello, this is my first post on these forums and have two question's regarding the kj fight. Both are for the hunter's

My guild has recently started doing kj and my first question is on the sinister reflection's. On our first couple of night's try's just before he cast's the spell it was possible to feign and not get hunter reflection's, after the latest patch I notice this no longer worked or I was just a tad to late, can any one confirm it still work's or has been changed?

My second question is in regard to the dragon shield. I've had the flame dart debuff (slow's you down) and been far from the dragon's shield, I've used Bestial wraith and got inside with plenty of time but still died. Is there a bug with bestial wraith and entering the shield. This has happened twice to myself and once to another hunter in my guild. Are any other hunter's noticing the same problems?

Thanks

Luthien · 07/22/08, 6:59 PM

Feign Death never worked to avoid the Sinister Reflections, and since the changes made with the last patch they are pretty much the easiest Reflections you can get.

I've never experienced any Bug with Beast Within and the shield, so i think it was a one time bug or you were too late.

Panzzzer · 07/24/08, 1:28 AM

Originally Posted by Garrodd

There also seems to be another knockback that occurs when you get too close to the center of his hitbox while he is not casting shadow spike. From my limited experience, this seems to also knock you back farther than his threat-based knockback although I may have just been getting hit by both simultaneously a few times.

Yes, there are 2 kind of knockbacks. The first is ofc if you come too close to the mid. the other meelee hit + knockback appears for the threathighest targets at his hitbox.

my guild use a warlock tank, means more likly there is no tank soakin the knockback. we made a advantage out of that tho.
me (dpswarrior) and our glaived rogue (we both always next in threat) use demonslaying + arthas gift. since we get 90% of the knockbacks of Kiljaeden it procs all the time and has a nearly 100% uptime. we use it on our paladin tank for sinisters aswell, because we burn them down every phase, they most likly die till the first darkness gets casted.
with this guardians elixir usage u debuff KJ and the sinister adds. the whole raid gains a +8dmg on all attacks.

@ warriors. apart from the arthas gift proc u can get from KJ a damageboost aswell. i explained already how it works with the knockbacks on meelees in our raids. i click atleast in p3 my salvation off, ill be very soon kiljaeden´s 2nd threattarget and ill get most of the knockbacks. when he hits u, ull get a chance of a enrageproc, and his knockbackability can also CRIT. i use alot of leather/mail and the first crit i got from KJ was 1000ish. since i knew bout that enrage proc chance, i simply apply my demoshout 100% and left is a 600-700ish crit on me and thats compared to raidincomingdps nothing. overall u win alot of single dps that helps overall alot, the only thing u have to care bout is ww/cleave/sweaping on sinisteradds, if u do it too early without the salvation it might hurt

Illustrious · 07/24/08, 8:33 PM

Anyone having problems with KJ's Darkness breaking through Blue Shields? We had a few sub 20% attempts and the darkness will go through an Blue Shield ( Everyone is dead inside the shield with 1-2 seconds to spare -_- )

• Intermission · 07/24/08, 8:48 PM

Originally Posted by Illustrious

Anyone having problems with KJ's Darkness breaking through Blue Shields? We had a few sub 20% attempts and the darkness will go through an Blue Shield ( Everyone is dead inside the shield with 1-2 seconds to spare -_- )

- Have dragon controllers outside of groups 1-5 while they take control of the dragon. (fixes "entire dragon-controller group dies, but everyone else lives" bug)
- Dont cast shield before 4 seconds left on Darkness

And of course, the actual solution:
WoW is buggy, it happens, wipe and go again until it doesnt bug out.

Charsi · 07/24/08, 11:07 PM

Yes, there is a bug where people will sometimes just plain die to darkness even though they appear safe. We have a video of someone very clearly standing inside the shield from the moment it goes up, they still die to darkness while everyone else lives.

dssurge · 07/25/08, 2:02 AM

We found that casting the shield on the 3 or 4 second mark exactly causes the Shield of the Blue issues because the buff it gives refreshes every second so when it dispels the original to apply the buff again, the Darkness will hit us before it refreshes server side. We started casting between one second intervals and our shield has never failed us since.

Off topic, but has anyone else heard of a bug or exploit which causes KJ to not cast meteors at all in the final phase of the encounter? Another guild on our server has killed him twice with this happening on both of their kills, with WWSs reporting extremely low hit rates on Armageddon (4 and 5, all but one are 7.5K or higher). We rarely, if ever, are hit by Armageddon from 55% to 25% but seem to rack up quite a decent amount of 500 hits under the shield during the final phase.

I've been browsing through WWSs and finding similar occurrences with many of the faster kills. Some guilds are hit with 0 Armageddons throughout the entire encounter, others post extremely low hit rates, usually before the final 2 minutes of the encounter. Deus Vox for example has 21 hits on their highest DPS kill, almost all of which are under the Shield, but guilds like flatline, Void, Apex, and Such a Thing have between 0 and 4 instances of Armageddon on their WWS reports.

This leads me to believe there is a bug or exploit in the encounter which makes it significantly easier if you can reach 25% with a few people down. I'm not here to bash the efforts of guilds who legitimately are not hit by Armageddons, because I do have faith it can be done, but it seems very suspicious after having members of a guild where he does bug tell us about this. It's bugged twice from them so far, and both times they have killed him reliably after posting sub-10 million damage counts for night and nights worth of attempts.

• Intermission · 07/25/08, 2:15 AM

I'd put the difference in WWS down to the collapse strategies.

Some guilds ensure that if a meteor is anywhere in the shield (regardless of if it will land while the shield is still up), we avoid it by doing the breath on the opposite side of the meteor. This means that nobody takes meteor, shielded or not, in WWS (unless people are slow/fail/etc). The reason for this method is because we wiped a few times due to people getting hit from meteors just after the shield goes down.

I assume some guilds risk it or have someone pay attention to when the meteor is due to land, and therefore just stand around in the shield. Not sure to be honest why they wouldnt move. Perhaps it's a timing thing, and that theoretically a meteor cant land after shield goes away due to falling time and Darkness cast time, but in our experiences it is a very real threat that has killed people after the shield goes away.

Seife · 07/25/08, 5:12 AM

Originally Posted by dssurge

I've been browsing through WWSs and finding similar occurrences with many of the faster kills. Some guilds are hit with 0 Armageddons throughout the entire encounter, others post extremely low hit rates, usually before the final 2 minutes of the encounter. Deus Vox for example has 21 hits on their highest DPS kill, almost all of which are under the Shield, but guilds like flatline, Void, Apex, and Such a Thing have between 0 and 4 instances of Armageddon on their WWS reports.

This leads me to believe there is a bug or exploit in the encounter which makes it significantly easier if you can reach 25% with a few people down.

Our mentioned Kil'jaeden kill felt very easy and it was our fastest one. We had no casualties although one priest got hit by a 10k Armageddon.

It is to be expected that the going gets easier sub 25% because Kil'jaeden ceases to spawn shield orbs. But there may be something going on with the amount of Armageddons Kil'jaeden spawns because in hindsight, I haven't seen a lot of them (this kill was two days ago, so I remember quite well). If you want to verify this, analyzing WWS'es might not be sufficient as you'll never know what strategy was used: maybe there were a lot of Armageddons but all of them have been avoided.

Even if there was a bug, I wouldn't know how to exploit it. And unless you provide evidence, I advise you to refrain from suggesting that there may have been exploiting going on.

caird · 07/25/08, 5:34 AM

Originally Posted by dssurge

I've been browsing through WWSs and finding similar occurrences with many of the faster kills. Some guilds are hit with 0 Armageddons throughout the entire encounter, others post extremely low hit rates, usually before the final 2 minutes of the encounter. Deus Vox for example has 21 hits on their highest DPS kill, almost all of which are under the Shield, but guilds like flatline, Void, Apex, and Such a Thing have between 0 and 4 instances of Armageddon on their WWS reports.

This leads me to believe there is a bug or exploit in the encounter which makes it significantly easier if you can reach 25% with a few people down.

While I cannot testify to there not being a bug in the encounter that potentially reduces the amount of meteors in sub-25% phase, the kill of which you speak certainly felt completely normal, and the only exploit we could possibly have been using is our strict collapse strategy of our raidleader beating you with a very large stick if you even consider moving at all before the darkness is actually casting. We tend to have a maximum of two incoming meteors on our shields, and they are very easily avoidable with clear calls. Also, pre-hasting means people have the luxury of dodging any incoming meteors after the shield with ease.

Clandestine · 07/25/08, 6:10 AM

Originally Posted by dssurge

We found that casting the shield on the 3 or 4 second mark exactly causes the Shield of the Blue issues because the buff it gives refreshes every second so when it dispels the original to apply the buff again, the Darkness will hit us before it refreshes server side. We started casting between one second intervals and our shield has never failed us since.

Off topic, but has anyone else heard of a bug or exploit which causes KJ to not cast meteors at all in the final phase of the encounter? Another guild on our server has killed him twice with this happening on both of their kills, with WWSs reporting extremely low hit rates on Armageddon (4 and 5, all but one are 7.5K or higher). We rarely, if ever, are hit by Armageddon from 55% to 25% but seem to rack up quite a decent amount of 500 hits under the shield during the final phase.

I've been browsing through WWSs and finding similar occurrences with many of the faster kills. Some guilds are hit with 0 Armageddons throughout the entire encounter, others post extremely low hit rates, usually before the final 2 minutes of the encounter. Deus Vox for example has 21 hits on their highest DPS kill, almost all of which are under the Shield, but guilds like flatline, Void, Apex, and Such a Thing have between 0 and 4 instances of Armageddon on their WWS reports.

This leads me to believe there is a bug or exploit in the encounter which makes it significantly easier if you can reach 25% with a few people down. I'm not here to bash the efforts of guilds who legitimately are not hit by Armageddons, because I do have faith it can be done, but it seems very suspicious after having members of a guild where he does bug tell us about this. It's bugged twice from them so far, and both times they have killed him reliably after posting sub-10 million damage counts for night and nights worth of attempts.

I would say you're getting trolled, I've never heard of any such bug. Just because they are not getting hit by Armageddon while in the shield does not mean they're not landing at all. We avoid all Armageddons, even if they look like they will probably land while the shield is still up, by either moving the shield's location, or skipping the breaths for that shield. Some guilds also specifically prohibit people from standing in the shield area before a Darkness, so that Armageddons will never land in the area during a shield.

Hylo · 07/25/08, 6:36 AM

Sub 25% keep the collapse point clear. Meteors always spawn on a player so if there are no players at the collapse point before Darkness casting there can't be any meteors either (if they spawn *while* you are in the shield they wont hit the ground before you are already spread out again).

No bugs or exploits, just smart moving.

Johnneke · 07/25/08, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Natural

I would suggest making an empty spot in the center of your group for the bubble. In phase 3/4 you will want this area to be as meteor-free as possible. You can then place your MT in front of the safe spot (if he is melee) and if he gets knocked back it will be in an empty area. This will minimize fire bloom damage when the tank is knocked around.

I would also suggest rotating the raid 45 degrees clockwise. Put the center of your raid at the back-right orb. This is roughly the center point for the shield orbs and will give you the maximum amount of dps time possible.

If you use a druid tank who eats most of the knockbacks, you might be able to let the melee spread out more around the back. If they are rogues (cloak, sprint) or warriors (intervene) they should be able to get back to the bubble without a problem.

Thanks alot! I took your suggestions in to mind. So with a bear tank he would be then on the middle melee spot aswell as having this (hopefully) meteor free collapse spot behind the tank. I also made as much use as possible from the flooring pattern to assign positions, it definately looks like blizzard completely designed the floor pattern with positioning in mind. So this is what I came up with, any more suggestions are more then welcome and wanted.

dssurge · 07/25/08, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Clandestine

I would say you're getting trolled, I've never heard of any such bug.

That's the thing, they're the ones saying it's a bug. It could be a very obscure bug, something rare like the alliance Paladin who was raiding with horde guilds.

Like I said before, I don't think everyone is cheating or exploiting, and the objective isn't calling people out (sadly, it appears that way), but from the WWSs of their first 2 kills, the total Armageddon hit count is 9, all of which occur before the last 2 minutes of the fight.

One of their priests said there is a FRAPs of the encounter, so once (if) he posts it we'll continue this discussion I suppose.

Natural · 07/25/08, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by dssurge

That's the thing, they're the ones saying it's a bug. It could be a very obscure bug, something rare like the alliance Paladin who was raiding with horde guilds.

Like I said before, I don't think everyone is cheating or exploiting, and the objective isn't calling people out (sadly, it appears that way), but from the WWSs of their first 2 kills, the total Armageddon hit count is 9, all of which occur before the last 2 minutes of the fight.

One of their priests said there is a FRAPs of the encounter, so once (if) he posts it we'll continue this discussion I suppose.

I don't really understand this logic. You shouldn't get hit by Armageddon, so how can WWS be an accurate representation of it? The worse you are at dodging them, the more will appear on WWS.

Armageddons are cast where people are standing. Our strategy keeps an open spot for the bubble collapse spot so there is rarely an Armageddon there. We only had 7 hits on our last kill and 4 of them were real hits that should/could have been avoided (3 people hit inside the safe bubble). I can assure you--they were falling =)

Veng · 07/25/08, 8:46 PM

I'll chime in as well since we were mentioned in the same breath as "bug or exploit". Like Natural, etc, said, using WWS won't tell you the amount of Armageddon's you got, just how many people got hit by them. If people are good, and no one gets unlucky, you shouldn't ever have someone take a full damage meteor. Our last kill, for example, had very few Armageddon's land on the shield, so damage (and thus hits registered on WWS) was pretty minimal from them overall.

On another note, has anyone else had problems with tauren getting hit by the bomb while being in the shield (in our case, specifically, a female tauren hunter), despite the fact that they were in the shield for it's entire duration? One thing he noticed is that he doesn't get the shield damage reduction, so he pretty much knows at that point that he's fucked. Haven't really tried noggenfogger, and it didn't happen last kill, so seems like an intermittent bug

Niton · 07/25/08, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Veng

On another note, has anyone else had problems with tauren getting hit by the bomb while being in the shield (in our case, specifically, a female tauren hunter), despite the fact that they were in the shield for it's entire duration? One thing he noticed is that he doesn't get the shield damage reduction, so he pretty much knows at that point that he's fucked. Haven't really tried noggenfogger, and it didn't happen last kill, so seems like an intermittent bug

We didn't have an issue with a Tauren, but this week we did have the exact same thing happen with our Troll Mage. He would be inside the shield, the shield would go up, and he'd be dead inside after the darkness went off. We rezzed him and continued the encounter, then on the next darkness, the exact same thing happened again. Rebooting seemed to fix the issue for him, though - does your hunter ever try relogging / rebooting after the issues present to him?

qu- · 07/26/08, 8:22 AM

It's happened to me a few times. The first couple of times I'm not sure if I had the buff or not but it's definitely not one of those things where you're late trying to jump in and it hits you. I'll be in it for like the max duration basically then get it. Last week, at 10% I was in the shield and I fired a couple of shots and they were doing normal damage and I thought to myself, 'hey this is really cool im in the shield doing normal damage' but then I was like, 'I guess I don't have the buff and am going to die.' Surely, a second later -49k and I was dead.

I've never tried relogging or anything and I've also been bressed after it has happened and it doesn't happen again that attempt. It seems to be sporadic but has certainly happened more than a few times and only to me. Seems weird; anyone else have anything like this happen (not that it really makes much of a difference when it's on farm just curious) or experience something like this? Probably just some really dumb bug/lag/desync thing.

• Falk · 07/26/08, 12:56 PM

Does anyone have a fraps of this clearly happening? There was a theory of some odd interactions between the shield buff (basically an AoE pulse) and the geometry in Kil'jaeden's room. When thinking back to Gruul's Slam ability and how you could avoid it by standing on rocks, I think it bears at least some investigation to prove/disprove.

Charsi · 07/26/08, 5:46 PM

Here's a short vid one of our priests took of it happening:

wtf__shield.wmv - FileFront.com

He's clearly within the shield (and moving around) from the moment it goes up and simply never gets the protective aura. He dies, everyone else lives. I believe he turned off fraps shortly after that because he thought fraps might even be causing it.

dssurge · 07/26/08, 7:13 PM

Low Meteor, Bugged KJ, heres the video:

Kinetic Vs. Kil'jaeden (Resto Shaman POV) 2nd Kill By Edbad (theres some vent chatter in the back)

Feel free to watch a virtually meteor free KJ encounter. I counted 16 total meteors in the entire encounter, 7 of which occur from 55% to 25%. About 80% of the raid is present in the viewing area the entire encounter so even if you extrapolate, you're looking at 20 total meteors.

I wish our kills were this easy.

edit: from 2 different perspectives: KinKJKill.wmv - FileFront.com

All of the views have consistently abysmal meteor counts beyond the very first volley on phase change.

qu- · 07/26/08, 10:10 PM

Just to note: the better your dps is under 25% the less meteors you'll get under 25%. I would hope you would have realized that beforehand. Great dps and some luck on your side and you won't get many meteors towards the end of the fight because he'll be constantly casting something else. I believe on our last kill he also did a few fire blooms under 25% while it is also common to have none at all so I am pretty sure that it is all luck. Also, as you stated from their video, more than half of their meteors came after 25%, the phase you claimed to be bugged and easier. I really don't understand your logic.