The Achievement Thread - Page 10

• Intermission · 07/24/08, 9:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lamaros

Another suggestion:

Fearless Hunter: Kill a frog/rabbit/spider/etc (Kill every different critter type in the game).

Another one:

Kill Mr Bigglesworth

Oh wait, no more old Naxx

Perhaps the new version, and I hope it stays as no-respawn (and still pisses off KT).

edit: Another one, far more challenging:

Have Mr Bigglesworth kill you. He hit for ~1-2 damage I believe. I came close once, but between trigger happy people and thorns happy druids, it never happened.

Lamaros · 07/24/08, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Intermission

Another one:

Kill Mr Bigglesworth

Oh wait, no more old Naxx

Perhaps the new version, and I hope it stays as no-respawn (and still pisses off KT).

But then we'd just have a "hey guys let me make a raid so I can get the achievement done" situation, which doesn't strike me as overly fun.

Maybe making him randomly spawn somewhere inside the instance after a boss has been killed would make such an achievement more exciting. (People would still try to kill him just to stop others getting the achievement though, I expect).

• Intermission · 07/24/08, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Lamaros

But then we'd just have a "hey guys let me make a raid so I can get the achievement done" situation, which doesn't strike me as overly fun.

I didnt think all achievements were meant to be challenging, which is why they are worth various points. Stuff like "/hug a dead player" and "learn first aid" etc.

The main reason why I liked Mr Bigglesworth at the start was to encourage prompt raid attendance!

Vodrin · 07/24/08, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by Intermission

Have Mr Bigglesworth kill you. He hit for ~1-2 damage I believe. I came close once, but between trigger happy people and thorns happy druids, it never happened.

.. He hit harder with CoR on :p.

Lamaros · 07/24/08, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Intermission

I didnt think all achievements were meant to be challenging, which is why they are worth various points. Stuff like "/hug a dead player" and "learn first aid" etc.

The main reason why I liked Mr Bigglesworth at the start was to encourage prompt raid attendance!

Hence the reason I used the world "fun" and not the word challenging. People wouldn't turn up promptly to get the achievement done, they'd just start a raid instance whenever for the sake of killing him, because if you're not saved by killing him it makes little difference if he respawns or not in that raid ID as long as you do it before you're saved for the week.

Hence my suggestion, to make it more 'fun' by making it less of a "make a raid ID just to do an achievement" thing. Obviously it wouldn't be the end of the world if it was just a 'raid ID spawning as achievement'.

Saraya · 07/24/08, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Lamaros

Another suggestion:

Fearless Hunter: Kill a frog/rabbit/spider/etc (Kill every different critter type in the game).

And if you get this achievement, you gain the ability to make critters explode by clicking on them a lot...

Madlax · 07/25/08, 4:06 AM

I wonder if they gonna track at least some stuff retroactively.
Being Scarab Lord and having Atiesh instantly tells you that the person has in fact cleared MC, BWL, AQ and Naxx.
If they have the list of quests saved that a player has done, then it should hardly be a thing to check "some" achievements.
RFC - Hidden Enemies and Slaying the beast | Horde
DM - Van Cleefs head and the letter drop
WC - Glowing Shard
BFD - NONE
BRD - Fate of the Kingdom, Royal Rescue
LBRS - Maxwells Mission/Warlords Command
UBRS - General Drakkisath's Demise / Onyxia Questline
BWL - Red Scepter Shard onwards
DMaul - The Madness Within
GR - Safe Combination and The Grand Betrayal
Maraudon - Corruption of Earth and Seed
Onyxia - Head Quest
SM - All but Thalnos in the SM quests
RFD - Into the Light and Skull of Coldbringer

Well you get the idea - should be possible with a little work.

Lezwyn · 07/25/08, 5:50 AM

- Pick up 15 different types of herbs in 25 minutes.
- Kill 30 different types of mobs in 10 minutes.
(numbers can be changed of course)
i.e. some timed achievements that aren't difficult but might require some thinking beforehand. I wonder if those'd be any fun.

mrmojo892 · 07/25/08, 11:28 PM

Can't they also use the loot to check for retroactive kills? I know that not everyone kept their items from pre bc raids or even further back, but it has seemed to me like they keep track of that stuff. In cases where people have sold or deleted their items, whether it be deliberately or because they were hacked, these items do get restored. They must have some record keeping of this stuff. I thought I remember everyone getting their luffa restored at the beginning of bc when those things were likely sold a few years earlier?

Tyrian · 07/26/08, 12:19 AM

Can't they also use the loot to check for retroactive kills?

Im sure its possible, but it would just take too many resources to do it, which are likely better spent elsewhere (aka creating the expansion). Just because they 'can' do things like those mentioned, doesnt mean they have a viable or suitable method to grant that service to 10mill customers.

• Falk · 07/26/08, 3:09 AM

I'm sure the people to whom it matters enough that they have to have it, will have no problem finding a pug and steamrolling old content.

darkra · 07/26/08, 11:02 PM

Qrt · 07/26/08, 11:57 PM

Having done the quest Nefarius's Corruption from the AQ40 questline (yes, I still use the [Onyx Embedded Leggings] at Mother Shahraz) ensures that you have killed Nefarian.

• Adoriele · 07/27/08, 12:18 AM

Unfortunately, the quests to get the pieces of Lord Valthalak's amulet, and the quest for the Dreadsteed, do not prove that a person has killed the bosses you listed. It is entirely possible for a group to kill the listed boss, then have one or more people leave and be replaced before they summon the boss needed for the quests.

Vasala · 07/27/08, 4:58 AM

The AQ Scepter quest lines can give you a kill mark for some of the old 40 man raids.

The Only Prescription in the Blue Scepter quest line requires you to kill Onyxia and Ragnaros to obtain two of the Draconic for Dummies chapters.

Nefarius's Corruption in the Red Scepter quest line requires you to kill Nefarian within 5 hours of taking the quest from Vaelastrasz.

darkra · 07/27/08, 6:12 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Unfortunately, the quests to get the pieces of Lord Valthalak's amulet, and the quest for the Dreadsteed, do not prove that a person has killed the bosses you listed. It is entirely possible for a group to kill the listed boss, then have one or more people leave and be replaced before they summon the boss needed for the quests.

Good point, I'll remove them

Also completely forgot the AQ Gates questline, I'll add them soon.

Edit: Having that in mind, I guess "Shard of Felvine" and "Blackhand's Command" aren't proof either as a group could kill the boss, then summon someone to take the item / become attuned to BWL. Removed.

Ja7us · 07/27/08, 6:22 AM

You could use "The Gauntlet of Gordok Might" to track King Gordok, since it requires a successful tribute run.

darkra · 07/27/08, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Ja7us

You could use "The Gauntlet of Gordok Might" to track King Gordok, since it requires a successful tribute run.

This has the same issue as the Dungeon Set2 quests... someone could easily be ported after King Gordok is dead to get the buff and get/complete the quest.

The only quests that guarantee you have killed the boss are quests that:
1)have the death of the boss as an objective
2)require an item that drops from a boss
3)begin by an item droped by the boss

Everything else (like the Seed of Life quest in Maraudon that I also removed), could conceivably be attained without having to kill the boss.

Nogun · 07/27/08, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by darkra

A relatively easy and doable with the current mechanics way is to track the quests that have as objectives, or start from, bosses. But not 100% reliable cause may people just don't do the quests, or never have a chance to get the item (for example Nefarian's Head or Hakkar's Heart)

I'm pretty sure Blizzard considered your option and decided it wasn't worth implementing limited retroactivity, that rewards Boss Kill achievements based on quest markers. The vast majority of these achievements can be obtained solo and those that can't be obtained anymore, say old Kel'Thuzad or old Kazzak, simply don't exist so rerollers and newcomers don't feel like they are missing out.

It's a matter of consistency, there is no solution that leads to rewarding the achievement to everyone that killed a boss. Sure it is a bit illogical that you can have completed quests and own loot requiring you to have killed a boss and not have the achievement but imagine what kind of outcry would happen by the people that also killed those bosses but didn't receive the achievements. Simply saying, this is a new system, it's new goals to obtain is much easier.
You really don't want to add this kind of load to support that always comes when people are confused or don't believe it's fair for something that doesn't really add but kind of takes away things to do.

Implementing this would result in some to be disappointed because they didn't get something they also deserved (it doesn't matter how easy it is to get), and those that do get the achievements retroactively lose more than they gain because they won't have the hours of "catch'm all" game play fun of revisiting places that really deserve a revisit.

There's nothing wrong with adding a small motivation to try out previous content instances, from my experience retro raids can really be fun even when you farmed the place to death 3 years ago and the entire Boss mechanic is lost because of how much you out scale it (that alone is fun to see), nostalgia I guess.

Nice list you compiled though, brings back some memories.

PS; An improvement to the boss kill achievements could maybe be adding the date and the level at which you obtained the achievement. Maybe for further replay value even add a counter of how often you executed the achievement, in this case how often you killed that specific boss. Once achievements can be accessed from armory this might add a new level of achievement, for example, who received an achievement first and who accomplished it most often type of leaderboards.

darkra · 07/27/08, 12:34 PM

Of course you got a point...

One way would be to exclude the Head/Tentacle/Phylactery quests.

I realize there are tons of people that have killed both the 5man and the raid bosses countless of times without doing a quest for them, but that can't justify that someone that has turned in Onyxia's Head and crafted Quel'Serrar not having the Onyxia achievement...or having crafted Thunderfury and not have the Ragnaros one...

Quests represent the impact a character has in the story, its "canon" so to speak... thus a record should be kept based on them.

Crawk · 07/27/08, 2:35 PM

Before you guys spend too much time breaking those quests down - honestly, why would they bother spending time/effort to implement quests -> old achievements? It wouldn't hit 100% of the people that made these achievements, so if you think not retroactively awarding old achievements is a "slap in the face" then you'd still be slapping a lot of faces.

Anyone that is an obsessive completionist is going to have an afternoon of fun romping through old dungeons anyway to get all the old ones. Old-school raids are already a great way to blow off steam for guilds, and they'll be even easier at 80.

And achievements like this are really about giving completionists one more carrot to run after, since completionists love carrots, so don't worry about stiffing them so much. Awarding them retroactively would be a net removal of "fun" from the system.

Kewangeder · 07/27/08, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by songster

I like the idea of a tiered system, as suggested earlier. Something along the following lines:

1) I was there (boss X) The people present at the server first kill itself

2) They also serve who... (boss X) Everyone who is saved to the Raid ID at the time the server first kill happens

3) Companions of greatness (boss X) Everyone who is in a guild with anyone who was present at the server first kill

4) The World as Witness (boss X) Everyone online on the server at the time of the boss kill.

Yes, (3) is loose - and deliberately so. I'm sure some people will get it who "shouldn't" - but on the other hand it's the only way to get recognition for the guy that happens to be on holiday that week but MTed every other first kill you've ever had.

Number (4) will probably irritate everyone here, but I really like the idea. It doesn't have to be worth a large number of points, it's just a kind of "Wow, I was there when..." that might help the server as a whole to celebrate its achievements. And, frankly, I like the idea of someone who's just bought the game, standing in Northshire Abbey, suddenly getting the server wide message that <X people> have just killed something major. Gives them something to aspire to.

It sounds like you're referring to my post.

My main goal there was to address some of the shortcomings of a simple "I was there" boss kill achievement, by rewarding the learning effort. It also attempts to award only that, as much as possible. So, if you were that MT for Archimonde for three nights of wiping, had to take a night off for your daughter's graduation, and the guild gets a kill with their other MT, you get a rather nice recording of your contribution. Similarly, if you farmed 200 primal shadows on an alt and put it in your guild's vault (or, you're in that guild and not even a raider), and then it gets a Shahraz kill, you get a medal.

This might even have helped mitigate the Tempest Keep attunement problems of yesteryear. A variation of Manning the War Effort would definitely have been deserved for those raiders who dutifully ran others through Naaru trials over and over, long after their process was done.

Achievements like this ought to be visible via the Armory, just as loot and talents are; they constitute the sort of thing I'm likely to look for in a guild applicant, from a PvE standpoint. Gear might say they got lucky on drops; talent spec might say they read a guide; achievements would be another piece of the "this is a good raider" picture.

It can backfire, on occasion. If you spend four hours wiping to Lurker Below because your offtanks consistently die to spout, and you replace them the next day and get a kill, they get Silent Service anyway. If your raid leader decides to flip out and gkick everyone moments before Illidan falls, then they lose that chance at an achievement forever. Some problems could be fixed with a GM ticket; some not. Hopefully these are exceedingly rare.

I like your (3) and (4) as well (though obviously I'm not as gung-ho to recruit on their basis (ha ha)). (3) and (4) seem easy to achieve, but at the same time, it makes sense from a business standpoint - get the infrequent players online more, even if they're just hanging out at Orgrimmar while <Serious Casual> gets that server first, and a significant fraction of them will at least decide to play the game while there.

Hypatia · 07/27/08, 5:10 PM

Hmm. I see a problem with the "completion of quest X implies that you killed boss Y, so Blizzard should automatically activate that achievement" line of thought. It is possible to kill these bosses without achieving this quests. It's primarily the AQ40 scepter quest line stuff above that made me think of this, but it applies just as well to other quests and other instances and bosses.

Aha, and I see that Crawk pointed this out as well.

Anyway, the point is this: It is much worse to give the achievements to only some of the people who have done something than it is to give them to none of the people. If you give it to none of the people, then it's annoying that people who do those things later in the normal course of events will get the achievements, sure--but at least the playing field is level. Everybody will know that, yeah, old characters will have a lot of old achievements that they won't get unless they go back and make an effort to gain.

If you give it to some of the people, however, then that means that some old characters will have those achievements "for free" and some will not. If you killed Onyxia many many times but never got the head because you didn't feel like it was worth it to you or because you always rolled poorly, or whatever, how would it be fair for somebody else who killed Onyxia once or twice (or even as many times) and did get the head gets the achievement, and not you?

Now, if the achievement is actually about the quest (i.e. "Returned the head of Onyxia to Stormwind" instead of "Slew Onyxia"), that's not such a problem. In that case, everybody who has completed the quest gets the achievement, and everybody who has not doesn't get it. But in that case, the only way to get the achievement "after the fact" is to do that quest, and the only way you haven't gotten the achievement is if you haven't done the quest.

In short: I believe that achievements should only be rewarded retroactively if Blizzard has some information that allows them to reward those achievements if and only if the real task that awards that achievement is known to have been done. It's not fair at all if a portion of the people who have performed the task will be left out while others are not. Better to have everybody have to do it over than 90% or even 10% have to do it over.

◊ songster · 07/27/08, 6:13 PM

On a lighter note, here's a Feat I'd love to see:

Screw You, Corki - hold Cho'war's key in your inventory for a day of /played time without freeing that stupid idiot yet again. Automatically void if you ever do free him.

Dashiva · 07/27/08, 8:34 PM

Anyone tried to get 65 quests completed in Zangarmarsh? I'm stuck at 63 and i've been searching for hours using quest mods, forums, quest listings and what not.. and I mean hours.