The Achievement Thread - Page 3

Seratha · 07/20/08, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by spawnstah

And if we wont get recognition for the old stuff as Tigole said, its better to just remove those achivements. Having a achievement showing that you ran thruogh WC, SM, Scholo, MC sometime after level 70 is totaly useless, no matter if you get points for it or not.

From the point of view of a max level character, those dungeon achievements are quite useless. From the point of view of someone new to the game or rolling an alt, it's probably pretty cool to get an achievement for running Wailing Caverns or Scarlet Monastery. It's an added bit of fun to have with your character as they're leveling up. The way it looks now is that those achievements just add to your score, which isn't useful to anything except bragging rights.

The rewards for achievements seem to be based off of accomplishing the meta achievement rather than just the achievement itself. If that's the case, then the only people who have to worry about the low level dungeon achievements are the completionists.

Tigole · 07/20/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Trouble

My best guess is that the current raid achievements such as Kill Kel'thuzad with 20 people are basically placeholders/examples.

This is correct. Once we have a better feel for the content, we'll be able to make better choices. Perhaps we'll require fewer people, perhaps we'll require you to do it in lower item level gear (yes, we can do that), timed events etc...

Tigole · 07/20/08, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Intermission

I dont think underman achievements should be part of raids. Who gets shafted? Doing all heroics with 3 people sounds good, because you can just grab a bunch of friends. But for 25 mans, alts and casuals still usually want some gear, or just experience the content. Id rather not see people sitting out for an achievement for the rest.

A better way to challenge a guild/raid would be to put limitations on the fight, rather than limit the amount of people. Current raiding-world examples: (a lot of these are just copying the heroic raid dungeon thread)
- Gruul - with 2-3 growths
- Mag - without using cubes (its only around 12k damage, the AoE thing).
- Hyrdos - all on one side. OR, Hyrdos without seeing 150% on any side (many adds)
- Leo - kill caster before melee demon at enrage split.
- Vashj - dont kill any Naga. Off tank them all.
- Alar - only one tank. Use exploding birds to launch the tank to the next platform when alar swaps. Takes good dps coordination, along with a good tank who can aim himself.
- Astromancer - kill her in 60 seconds (ie, use Kael weapons to kill her).
- Kael - dont kill any weapons? Maybe just kill before x-amount of pyroblasts/birds.
- Supremus - no deaths (maybe my guild just has too many retards)
- Akama - without casting a single heal spell across the raid. (did this the other week). Bandages/stones usable.
- Teron - time limit, stay true to the dps race.
- Mother - no deaths (again, we have too many retards which would make this quite a challenge).
- Illidan - considering the current theme on this boss... make him drop an item with a 1% drop chance. Getting this item finishes the achievement. (ARHGHGRBEGJER)
- Clear Hyjal in 1 hour 30 minutes.
- Clear BT in 2 hours 30 minutes.
- Clear both in 4 hours 30 minutes.
- Kalecgos - no more than 5 seconds between demon death and dragon death. OR, decurse spell not used, let it bounce off naturally with big heals and a bit of SR.
- Brut - kill it in 4:45.
- Twins - use a real strat, such as raid group up on Shadow twin and have a single person kite/tank images up the top. (requires some Shadow Image AI knowledge)
- Muru - P2 in 60 seconds.
- KJ - Never have two dragons active at one time. OR, offtank all/some reflections (but thats adding even more RNG to the fight). OR, kill it without using any breaths.

These push your existing members to the limit, not force you to kick some out to make a little grey box turn gold.

These are great examples. We'll probably shy away from any that involve a time limit that goes beyond a certain point. I think putting a raid under time pressure is great. But doing it for too long (2, 4 hours etc) is too much.

Tigole · 07/20/08, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

I think this will be a great addition but they'll need to be VERY careful about what they choose to set as an achievement.

Undermanning can leave people out as was previously mentioned. Monotonous grind achievements will encourage people to not have fun, all in order to get an achievement, and some people will do this (see the honor system).

Battleground achievements are particularly worrisome. I don't want to get yelled at for recapping a graveyard in alterac valley because someone else wanted their achievement, and I don't want people sitting in the base accomplishing nothing just to say they're working towards an achievement, etc.

Every achievement idea they Blizzard comes up with should have to go through the question of "Would this be fun to try to achieve? Would it detract from the fun of others?"

That is basically the philosophy. A lot of people have suggested all sorts of odd "death" achievements. But I don't think they'd be very fun to get. We're keeping a close eye of the BG achievements. The goal is for them to steer people toward doing the right things in BG's. The "Cap a Flag" in WSG is always dangerous. But we felt that if we set the required number low enough (1 cap), that it wouldn't have an adverse effect on the gameplay. Setting that same requirement to 50 caps would be very problematic. I think a lot of these achievements have to do with proper tuning. And of course, the reason that we're exposing the system so early is that we want feedback on which particular achievements will be problematic.

Tigole · 07/20/08, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Seratha

From the point of view of a max level character, those dungeon achievements are quite useless. From the point of view of someone new to the game or rolling an alt, it's probably pretty cool to get an achievement for running Wailing Caverns or Scarlet Monastery. It's an added bit of fun to have with your character as they're leveling up. The way it looks now is that those achievements just add to your score, which isn't useful to anything except bragging rights.

The rewards for achievements seem to be based off of accomplishing the meta achievement rather than just the achievement itself. If that's the case, then the only people who have to worry about the low level dungeon achievements are the completionists.

They are basically there for the re-rollers, the new players and the completionists. To be honest, I think a lot of people will find themselves doing these late in the WotLK expansion cycle or between patch cycles as a change of pace too. I don't think that's the end of the world.

Moogul · 07/20/08, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tigole

They are basically there for the re-rollers, the new players and the completionists. To be honest, I think a lot of people will find themselves doing these late in the WotLK expansion cycle or between patch cycles as a change of pace too. I don't think that's the end of the world.

Yeah this makes sense. If you've got 30 minutes whilst waiting for a raid, why not blast through WC for an achievement?

Tigole · 07/20/08, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Vasala

It would definitely be nice to see some guild based achievements as well. Then it would not be necessary to have the progression threads, etc since you could go to the Armory and see what bosses guild X has killed on what date.

This version of the achievement system is really the first step. Account achievements (Blizzard-wide score, hello SC2, D3, WoW etc...) and guild achievements are things we want to investigate after Lich King goes live.

Tigole · 07/20/08, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Norfair

Although I agree with you, my point is that there are 2 achievements now: get Scryer exalted and get Aldor exalted. If you want to complete *all* achievements, you need to do both, which is already doing "unnecessary stuff". The points you get awarded for this is not in line with the effort, so therefore the only way to do grant the right amount of points is to add an additional achievement. Thinking about it, a better solution might be to merge these two achievements into "be exalted with either Aldor or Scryer".

We've already done this in the latest build. The new requirement is get exalted with either. I added a Feat for getting both to exalted. Unfortunately, I don't have a clean way to reward this one retroactively.

Tigole · 07/20/08, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Falk

Even if this thread is (sorta) at the behest of a dev, I hope you guys are posting feedback (or getting someone to) over at the official Achievements forums.

I'm reading the official forums and responding there as well. I just want to foster as much discussion as possible on the system while there is still ample time to improve it.

Tigole · 07/20/08, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

The WSG ones are really the worst. I could totally see the Shadow Priest arguing with the Druid that he should be the one to cap all the flags because he needs his achievement. And then going and pouting in midfield when it doesn't happen.

I'll play devil's advocate here (although I too am concerned about this achievement)... doesn't what you mentioned already happen? I see non-optimal classes grab the flag constantly in WSG. We're talking about 1 flag cap in your entire WoW career.

• sadris · 07/20/08, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tigole

I'll play devil's advocate here (although I too am concerned about this achievement)... doesn't what you mentioned already happen? I see non-optimal classes grab the flag constantly in WSG. We're talking about 1 flag cap in your entire WoW career.

You have 10.5 million customers.

Tigole · 07/20/08, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by spanko

I don't know if this is possible, but for raiding I'd like to see "Server First" achievements. Some kind of recognition or whatever for being the raid group that gets the server first kill on a 25 man boss. I think that would help foster some nice competition in PvE. Although I can see how it would be a nightmare for raid/guild leaders and deciding who gets a raid spot for each first kill.

We're working on getting the Server First technology to work. We don't know if we're going to be able to get it in or not but it's definitely a goal. Worse case, using the dates and the armory, that information will be available in some form.

Tigole · 07/20/08, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

You have 10.5 million customers.

Yes, and each one of those people believes that it is their god-given right to carry that flag at least once. If they shouldn't be carrying the flag, it's Blizzard's fault.

For the record, I agree with the concern over the flag-carrying achievements. But it is worth noting the player psychology that already exists.

◊ Birdemani · 07/20/08, 2:17 PM

I'm guessing there is no way to backfill the stats tab under achievements either?

edit: interesting bug right now that I will report, but you can obtain the fall far without dieing achievement while in ghost form.

• sadris · 07/20/08, 2:17 PM

Will achievement points work like honor (another form of currency) or reputation (tiers of upgrades) for the tabards, pets, etc?

Paprikka · 07/20/08, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by spanko

I don't know if this is possible, but for raiding I'd like to see "Server First" achievements. Some kind of recognition or whatever for being the raid group that gets the server first kill on a 25 man boss. I think that would help foster some nice competition in PvE. Although I can see how it would be a nightmare for raid/guild leaders and deciding who gets a raid spot for each first kill.

They actually did put these in from the screenshots, although the only one visible was for Malygos I'm sure there will be one for each boss. They were under feats of strength too so the only effect they have is a line on your armory for showing off.

I do agree though that it really isn't too fair to people sitting out for a world first kill. While it might not create any drama, if someone wipes on a boss all week, then misses the final day when the guild gets the kill, don't they deserve the achievement too? The only night of Kael attempts I missed in my previous guild ended up being the night of our first kill so it does happen.

It would be another plus for guild achievements, and maybe only have them go to the guild that the raid leader is in, or give the achievement to everyone currently saved to that instance.

As a side note I would like to see a section for class achievements as well. Something like:

Warlock
I'm not dead yet! - Kill the person that killed you within 5 seconds of accepting a soulstone resurrection

Rogue
Can't touch this. - Dodge 20 attacks in a row from a raid level boss.

• Falk · 07/20/08, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Tigole

They are basically there for the re-rollers, the new players and the completionists. To be honest, I think a lot of people will find themselves doing these late in the WotLK expansion cycle or between patch cycles as a change of pace too. I don't think that's the end of the world.

I know I would. :P The Achievement system is the single facet of WotLK I'm looking forward to the most. More so than raids.

◊ Kyth · 07/20/08, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Liebestod

The WSG ones are really the worst. I could totally see the Shadow Priest arguing with the Druid that he should be the one to cap all the flags because he needs his achievement. And then going and pouting in midfield when it doesn't happen.

Once the initial flurry over achievements dies down, I expect you'll see a lot fewer problems.

Originally Posted by Tigole

This version of the achievement system is really the first step. Account achievements (Blizzard-wide score, hello SC2, D3, WoW etc...) and guild achievements are things we want to investigate after Lich King goes live.

I think that guild-wide are very key for the raiding achievements. Any raider knows that the boss didn't die "server first" because of the 25 people on the kill, it was also the other 7 who were sitting out that night or couldn't make it, but who were on learning attempts.

It'd be very counterproductive to foster a competitive atmosphere in pve for "who gets in on the first kill" (or whatever other achievement kill you're working on), which is by definition a cooperative endeavor. It already sucks enough to be sitting when the latest boss dies.

Every character tagged with the guild when a guild achievement is eached should get it, unless there's a separate idea of the guild as an entity with certain achievements of its own (which I don't think would work well for a variety of reasons, at least not exclusively -- tagged players should get them *and* the guild-entity should, in that case.)

Akj · 07/20/08, 2:45 PM

Crediting everyone in the raid including the players on standby in groups 6-8 for an achievement might be a decent compromise. It wont solve the issue of players missing the kill after being on all learning attempts but it will at least reward the players who are forced to sit out for min maxing reasons.

Moof · 07/20/08, 2:50 PM

With regards to the wsg/eots flag capping achievements. Perhaps making them a little more team or support focussed could ensure people wouldn't try to be to selfish. For example, rather than making it simply "Capture the flag" it could be changed to "Support a Flag Capture" where "support" could fall under:
- carrying the flag
- healing/buffing the carrier
- attacking/debuffing someone attacking the carrier

However, I'm not entirely sure if tracking the 3rd requirement is possible at the moment. Or if it could be extended to the healers of the attackers on the carrier.

• Falk · 07/20/08, 2:50 PM

Re: Server First kills
You could come up with a million and one ways to include deserving members in the kill achievement - And then you get all the various "WTS Achievement, PST". It may be 'unfair' to award only the 25 who are present, but it's probably the most failsafe way to prevent exploitation.

Ultramax · 07/20/08, 2:56 PM

Edit: Falk types faster.

• Arawethion · 07/20/08, 3:04 PM

"Server firsts" already highlights a problem: more people are involved in a guild's raid than are ever present for any one kill. For other achievements (i.e. anything that's "repeatable,") people will cycle in and out every week, like normal. But every time a guild leader posts "thanks also to X, Y, and Z who helped us learn the fight but couldn't be there for the kill," it's a lot more bitter if there's an achievement that only part of the guild got.

[e]: er, yes, this was kind of repetitive, I guess. The point though is that there are going to be many situations where it's going to be rather difficult to award an achievement to the right set of people. "First kill" is just the strongest example of where it might not be possible to have an achievement in place without causing a huge amount of annoyance.

◊ Kyth · 07/20/08, 3:05 PM

That's why I was making a distinction between the kill and the first kill (or server first kill), although I didn't say it outright, the implication was clear with "the 7 other people who helped get that first kill but had to sit out" bit.

Obviously if there's no concept of a first kill then it doesn't matter because everyone in the guild will get it eventually.