Ultramax

Would it be possible to get a feat of strength related to the AQ war effort? Not the opening scepter questline but the repeatable quests to turn in copper bars and mageweave bandages and other stuff.

 

• Falk

That's probably something to look at - if single characters (and in future, accounts?) can be attributed achievements, why not guilds? WoWJutsu already has something like that in place, completely unofficially. I'll also state that if anything, legendary items should be acknowledged as a guild rather than as a personal feat of strength.

Of course, then you'd run into the issue of people recruiting legendaries just for that one guild achievement...

 

Bullshot

It may not be the most elegant way, but the server-first achievement could be awarded to the players saved to that raid ID. It wouldn't solve the problem of coming in on maintenance day and downing the boss after weeks of trying however.

 

• giansm

The problem with this is that it runs into the same issues that guild-based attunement would (back when that was the in-vogue thing to talk about). It equates the raid group with the guild, which works fine for many raid groups but does not work for two notable exceptions: large guilds with more than one raid group, and small guilds that are part of a raid alliance. Any sort of guild-wide achievement system will only make sense for guilds that have an exclusive 1-to-1 relationship with a raid group, which is common but not universal.

 

• Falk

We're back to "WTS Achievements, PST", though.

If you knew the mechanisms for achievement awards, you either decide to reform to get them, or ignore them totally. In Gurgthock's example, the achievement basically states "80% of the players in the raid that killed this boss for the first time were from <This Guild>". The guild grouping becomes a mechanic of acknowledging that fact, and people can choose to use or ignore that mechanic as they wish. This already happens with all those guild ranking sites out there - it's not new.

In multi-raid-group guilds, that statement still holds true - "80% of the players in the raid that killed this boss for the first time were from <This Guild>" is still exactly as advertised.

 

◊ Praetorian

What raid alliances or "Team B" intraguild groups actually get server firsts?

 

• Falk

Well, it'd be an 'issue'* with other guild-related things, not necessarily server firsts.

Say, undermanning/time-trial achievements, for example.

*see my previous post.

 

◊ Praetorian

As I noted above, those are repeatable and reflect individual accomplishment better. You can 20-man K'T one week then swap in 7 new people when you do it next week.

Also in practical terms people already associate first kills with whole guilds. Everyone remembers that Nihilum got the world-first Kel kill, or that DnT killed Horsemen first. Never mind the fact that more than half of the actual players involved in those kills have moved on to other things, we still attribute the accomplishment to the guild as a whole.

 

◊ Kyth

Players may just have to accept that Blizzard doesn't formally recognize "raid alliances" even though they can exist, and while it's good to ask for more support of them, they may have to continue to accept that the tools won't support them.

Raid alliances can't use guild banks either -- that doesn't mean anything is wrong with guild banks, it just means there continues to not be support for organizations beyond "the guild" and "the arena team."

* Sunwell strats: http://strats.fusion-guild.org/
* InTheBuff: WotLK raid buff checklist

 

Rasputin

Consider a different case though. My guild got server first Illidan. However, we have some 200 "friend" and "alt" status people in the guild. Should my 6 alts all be credited for that server first kill, as well as the random people that some people are friends with? Server-first Achievements seem very difficult, since they are at once so very desirable and so open to misattribution or exclusion of credit.

 

mrmojo892

If server first kills are such a sensitive issue they can just step back and not reward any character achievements for it. That could be something that only shows up under some type of guild achievement page.

 

• Falk

The suggestion here is to award it to the guild. Not the individuals in the guild.

Edit: beated'n.

 

Steveharris

What about having an NPC spawn, or lootable object that can be used to bestow "server first" status on people? Say you kill Illidan first, Akama will be like "Ooh, I'll give you this mystical essence or some shit so people will know what a badass you are", then you can rotate people in and out of the raid to talk to Akama for the achievement. The lootable item could be something like right click, and the target will have server first achievement status bestowed.

Obviously, these could both be very susceptible to selling, so care would have to be taken in implementation, but it seems that pretty much regardless of how you do things, people are going to be selling server firsts.

 

Paprikka

As you said, thats extremely easy to sell, and if someone missed the raid for a legitimate reason, being out of town or such, then they miss getting that item.

I think the best way for this sort of achievement to happen is simply have guild specific achievements. The guild itself has a separate page for achievements, maybe a button that becomes available after joining a guild on the achievement page that lets you view all of your guilds achievements.

Sure, you may not have a line on your own personal page that would stay with you through switching guilds and server transfers, but as was said this kind of honor is usually attributed to the guild and not specific people. Plus you have your guild tag on display under your name at all times. I'd say thats more of an achievement then being listed in some menu you have to inspect someone for.

 

mrmojo892

Off the topic of server first achievements, I was just thinking it would be fun if there were challenge type achievements that exist in solo content. I know that its especially hard to balance around solo type stuff, but I have two ideas that I believe would be fair.

1. Complete a 2 player group quest on your own.
2. Complete "The Air Strikes Must Continue" type of quest in half of the allotted time.

Just thought of something else, what about server achievements? Like first server to complete the Isle of Quel'Danas or have 3 guilds clear Sunwell.

 

Kaerellen

My friends and I have long been playing a mini-game in WSG we call "Naked Priest Caps," which is played exactly as it sounds. An achievement along the lines of "Aid in a naked flag cap" would require the entire team to work together (keeping a naked priest alive and moving is a full team effort) and maintains the goal of the BG. Just a thought.

 

Illy

BGs are bad enough as it is. As has already been mentioned, implenting an achievement like this will only result in frustration to the half of the team that wants to just win and not hinder themselves in some way to get an achievement which they may not care about.

If they're going to do BG achievements it needs to be more along the lines of not letting your opponent cap the flag in WSG, 5-capping AB, etc.

 

Azurai

If a guild cares so little about their own accomplishments that they sell them and dilute their own image, grats I guess. The Raid ID thing wouldn't work without a list of rules, because anyone that joins a raid group with any member with the ID as lead can simply zone in to a place and grab the ID.

Has there been any indication of the possibility of an 'AP store' in addition to rewards from individual achievements? This would allow more meaningful rewards from the system (even character altering ones) if its kept reasonable. If something can be achieved through pvp, pve, exploration or collecting I don't see why people would see a problem with it. However, it has to be expected that you could 'max' relevant AP bonuses through a modicum of effort in all categories or focusing on specific ones (IE hardcore pvp or pve players).

 

Zifna

I'd like to agree with the "Server First" achievements only having meaning if they apply guild-wide. I'm in a strange situation where I am one of two Elemental Shaman in my guild. This usually works out just fine but on min-max first attempts, often only one of us can be in. But we are both good guildies and players who contribute to the strength of the guild and to our first kills. I'd rather not have them in the game than have them in and not awarded to the people who are benched. I've been a guild leader and a raid leader, and it's *already* tough as anything to decide what persons get in raid on important progression days, because you always have more people on roster than you bring to raid. This would just lead to drama.




On a happier note, I *love* the fall 65 yards without dying achievement. I'd like seeing more similar achievements... things that may not necessarily take a lot of time, but might take some thought or luck to pull off, and involve some risk for some classes. Like... have 20 elite mobs of equal or higher level aggroed to you at one time, and do not die within 60 seconds of the 20th aggroing. This is pretty feasible for a tank, but would certainly take some thought for a Resto Shaman or a Mage. That might be a little complex, but other ideas would be:

-visiting the old GM Island (it takes some planning to get there without dying to fatigue)
-stay alive continuously for 20 min in Stormwind (as Horde) or Thunder Bluff (as Alliance)
-At level 60, a good one would have been getting to the quest turn-in-guy in ZG without killing any mobs or having anyone else zone in on that instance ID


I also liked the idea for class-specific achievements. =)

 

Calixtus

But a lot fewer and none is not quite the same thing. I like pixel decor as much as the next guy - well, maybe a bit more, strictly speaking - but 10 minutes of my time wasted, say, once a month so some guy could attempt - if everyone was capable of picking up the flag and safely getting it across the field in WSG, there'd be no issue - to get that particular piece of pixel decor is too much, especially when they could easily be replaced with various variations along the lines of "Win 3 WSGs in a row, 3-0".

Some of the AV ones are making be a bit edgy too; Graveyards are technically quite useful, but - at least in my battlegroup - the strategy that the largest portion of your average pug group will manage to execute succesfully is shot to pieces if someone caps IB GY. It has no strategic value for that particular tactic. Mines are pretty much the same; They're "nice" for a reinforcement based win, but most wins - again, in my battlegroup - that end up being decided by reinforcements are battles where one side did something seriously wrong.

(Sorry for nipping back to page 3)

 

Frogmite

I assure you this happens regardless though, I know many many guilds that certainly - for two hours go very very hard and strong especially on boss attempts. That is to say, we're concentrating 110% for 2 hours straight through what can be very distressing and psychologically draining boss attempts. I myself again, make a point of doing this as it allows structure and your own 2 hour respawn/2 hour flask set-up has dictated this. I believe on our Brutallus learning we had two nights of two 2 hour sessions with a half an hour break in between but, it was something that was unanimously preffered.
The problem is that this is hard to impose and get familiarised with in the first place but at the end of the day it is far better not only for the sanity of the raiders but in making raiding accessible and possible to those with little time. Thanks to our, less hardcore, schedule we have a number of professionals who due to our limited number of raid days and reasonable hours can raid often if not all the time.

Granted some people have other responsibilities, parents to eat with, trash to take out maybe an emergency where they need to go pick someone up (we've had a few of these) but big deal? Simply because some people have erratic planning and other responibilities should those that want to push for a higher standard of raiding be penalised? I remember from the moment we entered Black Temple the first week after our first Illidan kill people we're slightly dejected, our project of 2 or so months had become farm content. So immediately I set goals - Mother in one night, then Council in one night, I set goals that were challenging back do-able with the final goal always being to clear the place in one raid night.

Now of course this needs careful direction and administration, it's far too easy, when farming something, to be heavy handed if something goes wrong. But this is why achievements will be so beneficial, they're one time things - at least in terms of timing. If the achievement simply states "Managed to clear Black Temple in 4:12:09" it's something thats a possible goal if motivation is there!

I love the longitivity of Black Temple, if reflects a normal, average raid night and as such is very useful to us in having a meaningful and successful raid. An achievement would only facilitate the enjoyment of raiding. I'm sure you're aware of how many have praised the pre-Kalecgos trash? It's 40 minutes of trash almost! But it is challenging at least moreso than any other, it reminds me all the wierd tactics we had in 40 man Naxxramas it's interesting and keeps people focused. It's very easy for a 4 hour Black Temple clear to dissolve into a 7 hour stop and start where everyone can't be bothered.

While I do think that some kind of freedom should be accessible with clearing farm content to make it more managable at least achievements of that type would be a step in the right direction and I feel that 16 hours a week of fast paced, well spread out raiding is far more healthy and sane then 5 days a week of 30 hours stopping and starting.
Promote speed, promote a high level of playing and there is no need for that extra day as you've (as we ended up doing with Sunwell) cleared farm content in a night and a half.

 

Liebestod

Warsong Gulch
Ironman
In a single Warsong Gulch battle, carry and capture the flag 3 times without dying

This is the main problematic one I had in mind, where you might end up having people argue over who should get to be FC. There are similar issues with other PvP achievements (a lot in AV, really), and I realize that you can't get rid of all of the ones that might induce perverse incentives, but I could see this one causing problems... although admittedly maybe not many, that's what testing is for, right? I guarantee that we'll see some hilarious anecdotes come from people trying to get this achievement, in any case. (And of course, there will probably be anecdotes about people trying to grief those who are trying to complete an achievement.)

That said, I really look forward to the creative "hardcore" boss achievements. A simple way to extend raid life.

 

◊ Kyth